The uniforms that Kirk and company wear during Star Trek Motion picture through Star Trek VI what is the purpose of the flap that comes down the front? Does anyone know?
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Do you mean the double-breasted cut of the jacket, or the little shoulder strap that goes over the right shoulder?
If A, then it was to look all navalistic n' stuff. If B, it was to hold A in place.
Star Trek II, right after the first Hornblower-esqu shootout with Khan, is probably the best place to see close-ups of Kirk fiddling with the strap and jacket closings.
Marian
This random sig quote is brought to you by PVP: "Star Wars? Hot diggity dog! I'm gonna play a Vulcan!" Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I figured it was just that they'd left the equivalent of the top button undone. And those uniforms showed up in Star Trek 2.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Well the strap thing comes over the top which has the rank insigna. Im talking about where the jacket meets that strap and you have the option of pulling the rest of the jacket down or having it buttoned up. And yes your right the first appearence was in TWOK.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'm guessing it's like loosening your tie, might give a little more comfort?
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
From where I read somewhere a long time ago in galaxy far away the flap was based on the whole Nelsonian/Hornblower thing. But it to me it seems still wierd considering that when the flap is down the under thingy is still around the neck.
:{)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Dramatically, it's purpose seemed to be "oh my god we're in shit now quick let's undo the flap in order to look a bit more distressed".
Marian is right, Kirk undoes his jacket just after the first part of Kahn's initial attack. And yes, it's hard to see what the point is. Loosening your tie/undoing your top button makes sense because those are around your neck, and they're slightly constricting to boot. Undoing the flap doesn't seem to provide more freedom in anyway.
Oh, and there's also a good example of the flap being opened in STVI. Right after the Klingons leave the ship, McCoy states "I'm going to find a pot of black coffee" and rips it open with some force. It sounds like velcro.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
The actual costumes used a series of tiny snaps, all along the line of the flap in groups of four.
I have a hardcopy article about the construction somewhere. It's from high school, so it predates the web. It might even contain mimeographs!
Marian
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
While undoing the flap doesn't provide more freedom, I remember Fletcher or someone from the staff describing the uniforms as using "almost like marching band uniform" material, and in that case, the main benefit of undoing flaps (from my experience) is to cool off. Even if there isn't any freedom gained, it is more comfortable.
Now why they would need to do that on a ship in space? Eh...
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Hey at least its better than those auful crotch killer overalls with that ghetto buckle that appeared in ST1.
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Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ace: ...I remember Fletcher or someone from the staff describing the uniforms as using "almost like marching band uniform" material...
My college marching band uniform was like the movie uniforms. The tunics were wraparound and buttoned on the side under the right arm and on the right shoulder. Pain in the ass to put on. My high school marching band uniform looked like a maroon TNG Romulan uniform. The band director didn't think it was funny when I pinned my combadge to it.
quote:Now why they would need to do that on a ship in space? Eh...
Well, when Kirk undid his in TWoK, his bridge was on fire. When McCoy undid his in TUC, he was intoxicated (and being buzzed always makes me feel warmer). I'd imagine you'd probably want to loosen it if you're on the ground outside in the heat. Or, in a stressful situation, you just want one less thing choking you around the neck.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
:{) Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
That's a pretty good representative of my band director, too.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: :{)
Hey I may be a teacher but I do not run the band (our school band kinda sux) but I do have a Batleth to keep my students in line and on Halloween I do dress in my Voy uniform. Its the only fanboy thing I do a year. I do own a Kahn type red uniform but I hate wearing it because of the stoopid flap.
:{)
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
If they were so bad, I suddenly wonder how awful those enlisted jumpsuits were...
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
The awful stiff band uniform fabric may have been the saving grace of those uniforms. I watched TMP again the other night, and paid special attention to the uniforms in that movie. I've been puzzled for awhile now because the illustrations of those uniforms on Spike's website (which I assume came from a Fact Files or Communicator or something) make them look just fine. It's only live, on screen, that they suck so bad. Why?
After the other night, I'm thinking that a big part of the answer might be the thin, flimsy fabric that they used. It hung limply, hems fluttered...whatever they used had no substance to it. I find myself wondering what they would look like if made out of a different material.
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
I hated wearing those marching band uniforms
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Subject change though, but still talking about Starfleet uniforms: The DS9 episode were Jake and Bashir on the planet together and the Klingons are attacking and at in the end Jake sort of saves the day byh caving the hospital roof, those black uniforms with the branch color stripe, they have been mentioned in some books, who would wear those, Starfleet Marines or quote unquote the Feddie Army. Opinions of this and equipment that they would wear. I say this because the Feddie soldier that Jake met was kinda stingily equiped.
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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The uniforms were cool but yes, you'd think they'd have more gear. I seem to remember someone over at the ASAP Trek costumes board discussing re-creating the field uniforms, must see if anything ever came of that. . .
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
I the Battle of Batazed novel, one of those many books that is considered canon, Vaughn discusses equipment on these uniforms, especially the weapons.
:{)
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
None of the novels are canon.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
In fact, none of the books in general are. But yeah, Battle of Betazed calls those field uniforms "Surface Operations Blacks", or SOBs.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Uh, are they nicknamed "Sons of Bitches"?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Probably just SOBs. Like people sometimes say "SOB" instead of "son of a bitch".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Some essentially baseless speculation:
That episode of DS9 was just on, and I was struck by how rigid the fabric on that soldier's uniform looked where it had been torn. Now, possibly (probably) that was just supposed to look like it had been charred, or soaked with blood and then dried, seeing as how it was surrounding a rather large wound, but it kind of looked like body armor to me. Perhaps those uniforms are built to undergo a chemical/physical reaction when hit by an energy weapon, dispersing some of its energy. Not enough to keep a person integrated, as it were (GET IT?), but perhaps enough to keep a glancing wound serious instead of fatal? In the same way a helmet is for shrapnel vs. someone aiming right at your head.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Or, in a stressful situation, you just want one less thing choking you around the neck.
But undoing the flap doesn't affect your neck in anyway, since the collar is still there. Fair point about the heat thing though. I remember Tim Russ describing the movie uniforms as being hot and heavy while shooting "Flashback".
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
While turtlenecks are certainly an acquired taste, there is a difference between heavy stiff band-uniform fabric at your throat, and soft fuzzy cashmere at your throat...
Marian
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
It wasn't the uniform that bothered me so much as having 30 pounds of bass drum mounted 2 feet off my center of gravity.
B.J.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Yeah, the tubas complain about the weight of their sousaphones, but with them its sitting directly over them. I marched trumpet, so I had it relatively easy.
Liam, true, but I was talking about in cases where the neck of the coat also fits rather snuggly around the neck (and adding to the pressure around the neck that the turtleneck creates). However, I do have to cede the point since, after looking at pictures of the uniforms, it looks like the coats fit rather loosely around the neck.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I WIN I WIN I WIN I WIN RULE!
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Yeah, the tubas complain about the weight of their sousaphones,
Wait, why are tubas carrying sousaphones? That's terribly confusing.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
In most high school and college marching bands, the tuba players typically don't march with concert tubas. Concert tubas are huge, heavy, awkward to hold, and very expensive. Most marching bands opt instead for the sousaphone. It's not as rich a sound, but the sousaphones are easier on the players and much less expensive. Most drum and bugle corps usually opt for the marching tuba, which is easier to handle but still heavy and huge.
Regardless of which instrument is being used, many band directors will just refer to them as the tubas for sake of clarity and whatnot. It's a similar reason for them talking about French horns when most marching bands field mellophones in their place.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Ahh. The bands over here tend to refer to them as "basses" or the "bass section". And they are usually the E-flat and b-flat normally orientated tubas. Carried by big fat people, for some reason.
And they don't march in that silly quick way American bands do with their marching backwards and sillyness.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
The only time I've heard the tubas referred to as the bass section was when I was music education major. All the other times, it was when I was in the orchestra and the director was referring specifically to the stringed double basses. In band, we use "bass line" a lot, but that includes the baritones/euphoniums and trombones as well as the tubas.
And, in my ten years of band, I've only ever seen two fat tuba players. The rest of them are usually more fit or very muscular. The only exception to both of those was this girl Tracy I went to school with. She stood about 5'2" and about 110 pounds. She only marched her freshmen (she joined the drill team the following year), and the sousaphone damn near swallowed her up.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
110 pounds doesn't sound very much, even on a girl only 5'2".
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Marching bands are the weirdest American tradition ever.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Surely Jesus is.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Marching band was my anti-drug before alcohol.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
"I drink so I can avoid doing drugs?" Nancy Reagan had it sooo wrong. "Just Say No," pah!
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Yeah when I was drum major for the 2 months I was that baton got pretty heavy.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Baton? Geez, you'd think he'd never heard of using his hands before. (None of my drum majors - high school or college - ever used a baton.)
B.J.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Our drum majors in both college and high school used conductor's batons for our shows. During parades, they just used their hands and walked backwards. In high school, we had drum major batons for use in parades, but we never used them since our drum majors' uniforms were usually tuxedoes and black gowns (in other words, it'd look silly).
It's just a style issue with the drum major batons. I've seen a few (very few) bands use them for shows. I've also seen a few bands where the drum major marked time while conducting during a show. It's just a matter of style.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
I used my hands during field shows but for parades and playing in the stands I used a baton.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Surely Jesus is.
No...that distinction falls to light-up lawn holiday scenes: Santa with reindeer on the roof, Jesus in the manger, Frosty the Snowman... ...all the biblical characters like that. Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Still the problem that I have is equipment. Every other race has all these cool accrutements but the Feddie soldiers. With the technology available to the Federation they should look like a cross between Starship Troopers (the book NOT the movie) and the marines from Aliens with a little Starcraft thrown in.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Some essentially baseless speculation:
That episode of DS9 was just on, and I was struck by how rigid the fabric on that soldier's uniform looked where it had been torn. Now, possibly (probably) that was just supposed to look like it had been charred, or soaked with blood and then dried, seeing as how it was surrounding a rather large wound, but it kind of looked like body armor to me. Perhaps those uniforms are built to undergo a chemical/physical reaction when hit by an energy weapon, dispersing some of its energy. Not enough to keep a person integrated, as it were (GET IT?), but perhaps enough to keep a glancing wound serious instead of fatal? In the same way a helmet is for shrapnel vs. someone aiming right at your head.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Actually some of the books are. ST magazine or ST Communicator published a list of books that the ST "heads" consider canon. I don't remember which publication it was, it has been a few years.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Harry: In fact, none of the books in general are. But yeah, Battle of Betazed calls those field uniforms "Surface Operations Blacks", or SOBs.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That would be the same book that makes Luwaxanna into some heroic rebel leader....
I think I got about four chapters into that book before ditching it. And I almost never quit a book once I start one: it was just that bad.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
But the magazines are also considered semi-canon. Something may be officially licensed by Paramount, but generally only what gets shown on screen, minus the animated series is considered canon.
quote:Originally posted by Curzon Dax: Actually some of the books are. ST magazine or ST Communicator published a list of books that the ST "heads" consider canon. I don't remember which publication it was, it has been a few years.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Harry: In fact, none of the books in general are. But yeah, Battle of Betazed calls those field uniforms "Surface Operations Blacks", or SOBs.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Indeed. This is one of those back and forth arguments, but over the years the consensus has gone from "anything on TV minus the animated series, and anything in the Encylopedia + Chronology" are canon, to "oncreen minus cartoon" only. The reference books are just that, reference books. They're not bibles.
And anyone still arguing that Pathways and Mosiac are canon at this point is clearly a madman.
quote:Originally posted by Dat: But the magazines are also considered semi-canon. Something may be officially licensed by Paramount, but generally only what gets shown on screen, minus the animated series is considered canon.
quote:Originally posted by Curzon Dax: Actually some of the books are. ST magazine or ST Communicator published a list of books that the ST "heads" consider canon. I don't remember which publication it was, it has been a few years.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Harry: In fact, none of the books in general are. But yeah, Battle of Betazed calls those field uniforms "Surface Operations Blacks", or SOBs.
Because we've never had that conversation before.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Someone should write the magazine and ask if their canon. The magazine will promptly say no and that will be that Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
But even they take things from the mags.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Canon vs. Non-Canon discussion:
Still my agument is that when it comes to combat uniforms the Feddies look like they are going on parade. Look at the DS9 episode Siege at AR what ever the number was, even the replacements at the end of the episode did not have any equipment save those ugly feddie phasers.
:{)
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Who's they? If you're referring to Bernd, you might want to re-read his article where he explains his reasoning on why he takes info from semi-canon sources. Plus, he at least acknowledges they are from semi-canon sources and doesn't assumes it's the absolute truth.
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