I saw this a couple of days back- the new Botany Bay is decidely cool (as is the toned-down Enterprie) and looks a tad smaller than it's original form.
It could have just been the early hour (6 a.m.!) but I did not see anything else added in (no Checkov in the background for example).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well Space Seed wasn't really a special effects filled episode, so I can understand why only the space scenes were changed. And speaking of space scenes, kudos to the remastered people for the Botany Bay. It looked really weathered. I wonder if anyone ever went back to retrieve it though. It would have made a nice Starfleet Museum piece.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Er,,,I thought the ship landed (or most of it anyhow) to establish the colony's first buildings/living quarters. Chekov does find part of the intact hull after all...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Those were cargo carriers and according to Okuda's trivia track on the DVD they're the same ones seen being hauled about by workbees and stacked in the Ent's cargo bay in TMP, so they're probably Starfleet issue. Which explains where some of their supplies came from, specifically Khan's "Starfleet" medallion and possibly where he got the Big Bumper Book of Klingon Proverbs (Junior Illustrated Edition.)
Plus I don't think that thing could have made a sucessful planet fall without burning up. Well, re-entry maybe, but it would have to have been a chute & airbag assisted splashdown, rememebr this thing is supposed to be 1996 technology.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...1996 technology like manned interplanetary travel, cryogenics and artificial gravity!
Agreed that those containers probably came from the Enterprise, even if they look somewhat bigger than their TMP equivalents. The belt buckle that cues Chekov, though... Why did Khan take that with him when ditching his ship? One would have to assume that Khan beamed across some stuff when taking over the Enterprise, perhaps weapons (although those would be primitive) or mementos from his Princely days.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I always figyred the DY-100's cargo pods would make planetfall -much like lifeboats do- and then be made of a modular construction so as to be the framework for the colony's first structures. The ship's stardrive is probably not salvaged, but it's power plant probably is.
With regards to the starfleet stuff Kahn's crew had, much of it was probabaly donated by the Enterprise to suppliment the Botany Bay's meager provisions: rations, medical supplies etc. Kahn's 'lil chickadee would have brought her library (tapes) with her (explaining Kahn's knowing Klingon rip-offs from earth culture).
I always wondered how many of Reliant's crew perished on Ceti Alpha 3...consider that Kahn's ship was only made for about 90 super-bozos- Reliant likely had a crew of three times that number.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I always wondered how many of Reliant's crew perished on Ceti Alpha 3...
"THIS is Ceti Alpha Five!!!!"
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I'm very glad to see the Botany Bay got some proper visible propulsion units. It's hard enough to make this 1990s tech, even without magical invisible rockets like the original model has.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote:I always wondered how many of Reliant's crew perished on Ceti Alpha 5...
L.A.Graf say "All of them". My bet would be "Two redshirts"; Starfleeters aren't incompetents, at least if there are no heroes nearby who have to be made to look good in comparison.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: ...1996 technology like manned interplanetary travel, cryogenics and artificial gravity!
Good point, though that last one might also apply to the 20th Century cryosatellite from TNG. Mind you, Khan and the rest of the "Augments" were supposed to be as intelligent as they they were strong, so it's not much of a leap that they made advances in cryogenics, deep space propulsion, life support systems and aeronautics (along with, I imagine some rather nasty weapons) that were either lost in the war or classified and intentionally buried by the various governments that defeated them. But that's straying into conjecture.
quote: I always figyred the DY-100's cargo pods would make planetfall -much like lifeboats do- and then be made of a modular construction so as to be the framework for the colony's first structures. The ship's stardrive is probably not salvaged, but it's power plant probably is.
Certainly possible, though they don't look designed for the task. My pet theory would be that one of the pods had a small disassembled shuttle that they planned to reassemble in orbit of whatever planet they planned to settle on, leaving the rest of the ship as an satellite/outpost. But again I stray into speculation.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
You may email pics of the New BB to me if you wish
quote:I always figyred the DY-100's cargo pods would make planetfall -much like lifeboats do- and then be made of a modular construction so as to be the framework for the colony's first structures. The ship's stardrive is probably not salvaged, but it's power plant probably is. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly possible, though they don't look designed for the task. My pet theory would be that one of the pods had a small disassembled shuttle that they planned to reassemble in orbit of whatever planet they planned to settle on, leaving the rest of the ship as an satellite/outpost. But again I stray into speculation.
An orbital station is an intresting notion...maybe the "stem" of the ship served as both weather and communications satellite.
From my ship-design POV, the bulky cargo pod things open up to reveal the ship's re-entry landers (holding the framework for the colony) much like storm shutters open. The pods with crew still mostly in crypsleep make planetfall (the colony leader and a few revived others choosing a suitable location and directing the pods from the ship in sync orbit). Once the colony is down, computers slowly revive the colonists while the leader and party position the ship in stable orbit and take the last lander to the surface with whatever portable power supply is available to them. There's "living off the land", but these are supermen for pete's sake- they'd want as much technology as possible to establish the best colony possible from the start.
I wonder how far Kahn's bunch made it before the star went all nova on them...I'd guess they had some advance warning (if only hours/days) to build additional (makeshift) radiation shielding for the cargo pods... I gotta say, those stupid twiggy solar panel thingers bug me bigtime. I'd love to make a pristine DY-100 with huge outboard solar arrays: the Botany bay's having been sheared off decades ago by micrometeorites or what have you. Hmmm...maybe the ones on the "BB" open up from those tiny packahes?
Ya know...the more I see STII, the more I see Kirk as the story's true villan- what a total prick to leave those people out there to die. Imagine another universe where Kirk saves Kahn and they become...well, not pals, but at least respectful allies. Again, fuck Kirk- history should judge him harshly.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I don't think that's true. I mean, Khan was a despot. Kirk rescued him from eternal floating in space, and Khan repaid him by stealing his ship and trying to kill him. Kirk sentenced him to exile. Seems fairly reasonable.
I was actually surprised by the ending of "Space Seed", not having seen it in a while. Kirk makes no promises to come back and check on Khan. He seems to make it pretty clear that his position is "I'm going to abandon you on this planet, and you'll probably never see civilization again". And Khan was cool with that. Just because an unforeseeable disaster later struck, that's not Kirk's fault.
Remember, these were criminals whose sentence was to be left to their own devices on a remote planet. Stopping by every few months to say "Hey, how's everything going here? Need anything? Food, medicine, towels?" kind of defeats the purpose.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Again with the star going nove. It didn't! The next planet out went blooey (although I know of no astronomical reason why this would happen), and that altered Ceti Alpha V's orbit and fucked over the global climate.
--Jonah
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Same way Praxis exploded, overmining. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote:Mind you, Khan and the rest of the "Augments" were supposed to be as intelligent as they they were strong, so it's not much of a leap that they made advances ... that were either lost in the war or classified and intentionally buried by the various governments that defeated them.
Possible, yes. But it was no secret to Kirk or Spock that Earthlings would be flying around their star system in cryogenics-equipped ships in the early 1990s; and it in no way surprised McGivers that she found solid footing after beaming over to the Botany Bay.
So Khan and his mad scientists may have invented cryogenics, artificial gravity and interplanetary propulsion - but they also appear to have sold those to the highest bidder, who then sold them forward, until all the inventions made it into history books. Alternately, Khan's cohorts improved existing technologies enough to allow interstellar flight, but not so much that they would be unrecognizable for 1990s tech.
I rather wonder if Khan's ship was even theoretically capable of founding an offworld colony. It might rather be that Khan simply did the best he could to get away from Earth for a while, but lacked the resources to mount a complete colonization mission. Heck, he probably planned on spending 50 years in cold sleep and then returning to Earth to start over - but the steering system jammed...
Okay, Earth in the 1990s might well have been planning interstellar colonization, and might even have had some hardware suited for that. Perhaps it was already known that there would be Class M planets galore, just waiting to be settled. However, Rain Robinson's excitement over the possible space aliens suggests that those 1990s people were not yet QUITE convinced that there would be life of any sort outside Earth. Would a colony on a non-M planet have stood a chance?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Again with the star going nove. It didn't! The next planet out went blooey (although I know of no astronomical reason why this would happen), and that altered Ceti Alpha V's orbit and fucked over the global climate.
--Jonah
Maybe it was hit by a "Michael Bay" class global killer asteroid?
quote:Possible, yes. But it was no secret to Kirk or Spock that Earthlings would be flying around their star system in cryogenics-equipped ships in the early 1990s; and it in no way surprised McGivers that she found solid footing after beaming over to the Botany Bay.
That could be explained by saying that by the 23rd century, they're aware that there was quite a bit of technology that was being kept out of the public domain, or it was so expensive that only the black ops budgets could afford it (hence the low budget look of the Ares IV).
quote: I rather wonder if Khan's ship was even theoretically capable of founding an offworld colony. It might rather be that Khan simply did the best he could to get away from Earth for a while, but lacked the resources to mount a complete colonization mission. Heck, he probably planned on spending 50 years in cold sleep and then returning to Earth to start over - but the steering system jammed...
I kind of like the idea that they had no idea where they were going and were just in a blind dash, though I kind of like the idea that they might have been on a course that would bring them back in a few hundred years, say get to alpha centauri, see if there's anywhere worth settling, if not then head back and hope mankind had bombed each other into the stone age so they could re-build it in their image.
There's an alternate universe story in there somewhere, perhaps the true origins of the Mirror Universe is that Khan actually made it back after WWIII?
I'm reminded that a few years back I collaborated with fellow flareite Kenny (Axeman), we tried to put together a mini-movie of Khan's escape. The concept was that the launch was from some secret complex in south-east asia (propper Bond villan stuff) and all the footage would have been from "real" cameras that would have been there (this is before BSG stole our idea ). We had a whole story rouged out as to how it was a rushed launch with 3 DY-100's taking off in rapid sucession. The third one clearing the tower just as the base was hit by a tactical nuke, knocking it out of the sky. The blast wave & EMP just caught the second DY, causing it to have to limp in low orbit to try for a slingshot out of orbit, where it was to be taken out by a defence satellite (yes, like the Gary Seven one.) Leaving the Botany Bay as the lead ship to make it out of orbit by the skin of it's teeth; having escaped a missile by dumping some of their cargo pods in it's path.
Needless to say it was all a little too ambitious and we didn't get very far, though I might still have a test screen shot of the launch somewhere.
Seeing this enhanced footage made me wish we'd managed it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: I don't think that's true. I mean, Khan was a despot. Kirk rescued him from eternal floating in space, and Khan repaid him by stealing his ship and trying to kill him. Kirk sentenced him to exile. Seems fairly reasonable.
Totally right...except that at some point, Kirk learns that Kahn, Kahn's 70 pals and a former starfleet officer are in real danger and does...nothing. Seriously, it's inplied Kirk knew exactly how boned Kahn's colony was.
We call that second degree murder here in the States...criminally neglegent homicide- minimum.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Exactly how could Kirk know? Even if they had swung past after Ceti Alpha VI went kerblewy and figured out that the orbits had been shifted, got into orbit and did a full scan, all they would have seen would be a "minor energy flux reading on one dyno-scanner" (whatever that means) and assumed the colony was toast.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I gotta say, those stupid twiggy solar panel thingers bug me bigtime.
I've always assumed they were heat radiators for the engines. Solar arrays are pretty much useless once you're a bit past Mars.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Reverend -- The exchange between Terrell and Kirk.
Terell: "He blames you for --" Kirk: "I know what he blames me for."
Except that at no point from when Kirk was first poleaxed by seeingKhan on the bridge of the Reliant did Khan actually bitch him out for abandoning him, etc. Yet somehow Kirk knew. This may have just been sloppy writing on Nick Meyers' part, or it could have been intentional. Either way, it's been used by a lot of people to support the theory that Kirk knew about the ecological devastation of Ceti Alpha V and didn't do anything to see if Khan and his minions made it.
As for the Botany Bay's launch, the novel Strangers from the Sky had a cool tidbit. Parts of the book are set in the early 21st century, and Our Heroes help a couple shipwrecked Vulcans off-planet, as they weren't supposed to be known about yet. They hit up an abandoned launch complex in equitorial Africa, where there should have been three unused DY-100s. To their surprise, there were only two, and scorch marks around the third, empty launch tower...
--Jonah
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
If Kirk knew about what happened, why did the Reliant still end up there?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Reverend -- The exchange between Terrell and Kirk.
Terell: "He blames you for --" Kirk: "I know what he blames me for."
Except that at no point from when Kirk was first poleaxed by seeingKhan on the bridge of the Reliant did Khan actually bitch him out for abandoning him, etc. Yet somehow Kirk knew. This may have just been sloppy writing on Nick Meyers' part, or it could have been intentional. Either way, it's been used by a lot of people to support the theory that Kirk knew about the ecological devastation of Ceti Alpha V and didn't do anything to see if Khan and his minions made it.
I'd say it's fair to suppose that Kirk deduced why Khan was pissed at him from 2 things he saw on the view screen. Firstly the appearance of Khan and his followers was clearly weather beaten and ragged, now CA5 was a hostile planet from the get go, but given 20 years a man like Khan should have been able to at least get basic textiles sorted so they shouldn't have been wearing rags and the remains of starfleet issue clothing. Secondly, McGivers was clearly not at Khan's side where she would most likely be if she were still with him.
While that doesn't tell you everything, those two bits of evidence indicate that (1) The colony suffered some kind if natural disaster and (2) McGivers was dead. That plus Khan's demenor should have given Kirk a goood idea what happened and whom Khan blamed it on.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Dudde, that's a fuck of a lot to instantly grasp just after your ship got it's ass kicked. I dont buy it.
As to "If Kirk knew about what happened, why did the Reliant still end up there?" Because somehow all reports of Kahn's colony (indeed, everything about the system) seem to be missing from Starfleet records. I'm sure someone on Reliant made a routine background check on the system before deciding it was prime Genesis fodder.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Also, Ceti Alpha VI. Dude, I don't need a scanner to count.
"Shit, there's a LOT of debris here that isn't supposed to be..." "Huh...hey, Not-Spock. What say you?" :::checks::: "...The hell?? There's supposed to be 6 planets but I only find 5. And a shitload of rubble." "Barney, Betty, or Bam-Bamm?" :::sighs::: "Sir, it's about 300 years too early for Braxton humor." "Right. Sorry."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The whole Kahn thing makes me wonder how many other exploits of Kirk and crew were never made public knowledge.
A lot of stuff would be classified (the Gateway time portal for instance) and some would be just...unbelievable.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
IIRC, CA6 blew six months after the Big E left Khan there. Given that the Enterprise was typically the only ship in the area, it is likely that Kirk might not have heard of the incident until months after that and then in some minor report on astronomical phenomena. They could very well have been on an assignment that precluded a rescue attempt.
The thing that got me about the whole explosion of CA6 is how it affected CA5. You would almost have to assume that both planets were close in their orbits. Perhaps it was the debris of 6 that hit 5 and did the "Dino-stinction" on it.
As to the K-crew's other exploits....they DID have 2 more years we never saw....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Terrell: "He blames you for --" Kirk: "I know what he blames me for."
Right. For aborting his dreams of world domination, for stopping him from capturing a starship, for marooning him on an uninhabited planet at the edge of nowhere, with slim odds of survival and none of escape. Plenty of reasons for all this wrath stuff.
That dialogue doesn't mean Kirk would know about the recent extra hardships or anything. It suffices that Kirk knows what he did, and who Khan is, and what his delusions and disagreements about his position in the universe are.
"We call that second degree murder here in the States...criminally neglegent homicide- minimum."
That's what Kirk was doing in the first place, and probably with full authority (even if off the record). He would have been within his rights to up the ante to first degree murder by giving the good old sonic crowbar a final swing when bringing Khan down at Engineering; he'd probably have gotten a medal out of it.
"I'm sure someone on Reliant made a routine background check on the system before deciding it was prime Genesis fodder."
Well, they wouldn't have been there unless some records stated "Ceti Alpha V - deserted Class M, potentially suited for harebrained scientific experiments". They couldn't have been flying blind across the galaxy, searching for the one hay in a needlestack. OTOH, they couldn't have been studying well-charted systems. If the entry already said "Ceti Alpha V - deserted Class M, DEFINITELY suited for harebrained scientific experiments", there'd be no point in sending a starship.
So most probably they just hopped from poorly charted system to poorly charted system, zeroed in on the desert planet there (with the assumption that it would be the one mentioned in the records) and gave it the once-over, then warped away.
It's not as if a planet would carry a label telling it's the fifth from the star; such identity can only be assigned to a planet by charting the entire star system and ascertaining that there are exactly four pebbles between the target and the star. And the Reliant would have little incentive to do that. They weren't looking for new life and civilizations, they were looking for desert worlds of exact criteria.
Let's remember "The Doomsday Machine". When does Spock notice that half the planets in the star system they themselves charted barely a year ago are missing? When the rubble starts hitting the windshield. What is his next observation? "Oh, Jim, you might like to know that, uh, the scanners show every star system in these parts in the same state..."
Sleeping at the wheel? If Spock does that, then it's probably SOP.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Dudde, that's a fuck of a lot to instantly grasp just after your ship got it's ass kicked. I dont buy it.
It's possible, the bloke is supposed to be a master tactician and part of that is quick thinking, deduction and intuition.
Anyway, it need not be an instant revelation, since that statement was made hours after the encounter. Plenty of time to come up with a few running theories as to what happened.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Terrell: "He blames you for --" Kirk: "I know what he blames me for."
Right. For aborting his dreams of world domination, for stopping him from capturing a starship, for marooning him on an uninhabited planet at the edge of nowhere, with slim odds of survival and none of escape. Plenty of reasons for all this wrath stuff.
Except that Space Seed ends with everyone more or less on good terms- smiles all around- even for Kahn, who got his intended goal of a brave new world to live on and a nice piece of starfleet cutie to go with it.
All Kahn could be expected to "blame" Kirk for was...er....nothing. An innocent Kirk's first response should have been "Kahn?!? What the fuck is your problem?!?"
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Except that this was the "Bad Dude" that came closest to offing him (other than the chick who turned HIM into a woman). When he dropped them off on CA he probably figured he'd never have to deal with him again. Think how long it would take to begin forging the industry needed to produce just basic goods much less start building interstellar spacecraft. At the beginning you can tell Kirk is pretty much a bureaucrat/trainer/display-model. He is involved in projects that are black-ops/top secret. So he's going to check on what's going wrong with a VERY dangerous project and gets sucker-punched by a Starfleet vessel. The next thing he knows, he's facing the dude that ALMOST took his ship years ago and has just crippled it seconds before thanks to a novice move on Kirk's part. All he knows is that Khan is back and looking to finish what he started 15 years ago. I don't think its guilt. I think its "Holy ----! I ain't ready for this. How the #$&*(#$) did he get a Starship?"
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I never agreed with Kirk's decision to leave Kahn and his buddies on Ceti Alpha. I would not have boarded the BB at first but run a background check to see who may have boarded it. If they're were no records, then I would have towed the ship to the nearest Starbase where more analysis could be done and more security precautions could be implemented. If I had an indication that there were some evil supermen aboard, I would have the BB blown to high hell and avoided a real threat to the Federation.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
However, once again Kirk was explicitly where no man had gone before, or at least not for a good many years. He didn't have the luxury of waiting for others to arrive and solve problems for him.
It's Kirk's job to check out derelicts like this. It's his job to deal with security threats the best he sees fit. Captain Cousteau might wish to wait for the police or the military to arrive if he encountered starved pirates. Captain Hornblower would himself be in charge of hanging, marooning, or drafting those pirates.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)