I thought it was quite ridiculous of Captain Kirk to surrender as the klingons were about to fire back.
He should never have said "We surrender,signal our surrender".
All he had to do was raise shields take a couple of hits then target and disable their weapons.He had a dozen witnesses on the bridge to confirm that he did not order firing on the klingon vessel.Once the klingons were disabled and their shields down they beam them over to the Enterprise into the brig and explain they never fired.
Also it was quite ridiculous that they coud not find the point of origin of the bird of prey photon torpedeos and also that no vibration/noise was generated at all as the torps were never fired from the Fanterprise from their launch points as you would feel due to reaction due to high launch speed...meaning due to absence of vibration wouid confirm to all that no torps left the Enterpris.Also the klingons never replayed the video of the torps to show it did not come from the Enterprise but from below it.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Oh, that's brilliant: shoot at the Klingons to prove they hadn't shot at them.
From the Klingon point of view, do you forget that Klingons aren't likely to investigate first and shoot second? They shoot first and investigate later ... if ever.
Kirk knew that he had to defuse the situation as quickly as possible. A firefight between the Klingon flagship and a Federation starship -- following the assassination of the Klingon leader by Starfleet members! -- would've provoked a war, which was precisely what Kirk's job was to avoid.
And are you so sure that the Enterprise could've defeated the Klingon ship? Even disabled, it could've mauled the Enterprise pretty easily. How many would've needlessly died?
Good thing you weren't in command!
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
When you're being accused of assassinating someone, it's general good policy to not respond by trying to blow their ship out of the sky. If just makes it look like you're finishing what you started. Posted by esecallum (Member # 2074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zipacna: When you're being accused of assassinating someone, it's general good policy to not respond by trying to blow their ship out of the sky. If just makes it look like you're finishing what you started.
I said disable their ship and beam them to the brig to carefully explain to them that we did not fire...the mere fact we are trying to explain to them would be proof we did not fire...after all why would we bother?.
Read again please.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Aside from the obvious, the slight chink in that plan is that the couldn't beam them directly to the brig because site to site transports weren't possible then. As I recall the E-B was the first Enterprise that could do that. Also, I doubt they'd have enough space in the brig for several hundred pissed off and wounded Klingons (some of whom BTW witnessed two Starfleet Officers assassinate Gorkon), given that the Brig only holds three.
Add to that the fact that Kang was in on the deal, I doubt he'd listen to any explanation because he KNEW they didn't fire. Which was kind of the point, he wanted to start a shooting war. Even if Kronos One was disabled, you can bet a distress signal had already been sent out after the first volly and once word got out that the Chancellor is dead and General Kang is a prisoner on board Enterprise what do you think the rest of the Empire would do? Send them tea and dumplings?
quote:From the Klingon point of view, do you forget that Klingons aren't likely to investigate first and shoot second? They shoot first and investigate later ... if ever.
Actually I believe official procedure is to shoot, destroy, shout, eat heart of enemy/die gloriously and go to sto-vo-kor (delete as appropriate), shout, drink Bloodwine, shout, head butt each other, pass out, dream of death, glory and Tribbles being squished, wake up, shout, make up exciting and slightly exaggerated song of the GLORIOUS CONQUEST, shout, find someone else to kill and repeat procedure, shout.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Uh, you guys know that 'esecallum' is a totally new poster right? why even talk about ST:VI?
i thought he was supposed to say something about himself FIRST before lighting any topic fires?
there's better things to discuss that has already been talked into the dirt (Pretty sure Bernd has covered all of that at AES...)
esecallum, PLEASE... explain who you are, where you are from and what you political views about Pengiun Pr0n are, please good sir?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Also, how naive to think that enemies of several hundred years would listen to an 'explanation' given to them in the brig, whether they were in on it or not, and just have a hearty laugh, clap some shoulders, and go back home.
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
Penguin Pr0n...sigh...happy feet.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Aside from the obvious, the slight chink in that plan is that the couldn't beam them directly to the brig because site to site transports weren't possible then. As I recall the E-B was the first Enterprise that could do that.
I was just about to say that the original 1701 did it in "Day of the dove" but I think that might be wrong - I have a vague recollection that Kirk and Spock beamed into engineering but I think it was from a transporter pad, not site to site. Ah well. Where does it say that the Enterprise-B was the first ship to do that?
As for the original point of this thread, I have to say that firing on a Klingon ship (even to disable) is probably not the best way to get them to calm down and listen to reason...and that's not even taking into account the fact that they would be firing on the ship carrying the Klingon chancellor! Bad enough any old Klingon ship but that one? That escalates "incident" to "all out war" right there!
Besides, if the Enterprise fired, how would a detailed analysis later down the line (if one was carried out) tell the difference between Enterprise-inflicted damage and that inflicted by the mystery torpedoes?
I think Kirk's plan was the right one - maybe he was even banking on Klingon psychology a bit. Would they consider it honourable to fire on a ship that had surrendered?
Oh, and it was Chang was in on the plan, Kang was entirely innocent and about to run into Captain Sulu at the time of the incident in question! :-)
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: Uh, you guys know that 'esecallum' is a totally new poster right? why even talk about ST:VI?
Because heavens forfend we actually talk about Star Trek in the Star Trek section of an internet forum. Good god, what was he thinking? Flay his hide! Take the skin from his bones! Hang him! Burn him! He's a witch!
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
*snort*
FawnDooDoo! FawnDooDoo! DooDoo! She make DooDoo!
/me flees, giggling
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
She? :-)
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Fawn = female deer.
quote:I was just about to say that the original 1701 did it in "Day of the dove" but I think that might be wrong - I have a vague recollection that Kirk and Spock beamed into engineering but I think it was from a transporter pad, not site to site. Ah well. Where does it say that the Enterprise-B was the first ship to do that?
In Generations the E-B beams the El Aurians directly to sickbay, hence site-to-site as for that being the first Enterprise to do it, I think (memory fuzzy here) there was an earlier draft where Kirk is surprised by the order, not being familiar with the new ship's capabilities. Not proof for sure but it's a safe assumption as that is the earliest (chronologically) site-to-site we know about.
quote:Oh, and it was Chang was in on the plan, Kang was entirely innocent and about to run into Captain Sulu at the time of the incident in question! :-)
Bah! They all look and sound alike...and what about that smell!? Top of the line models, yadda yadda yadda.
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by esecallum: I said disable their ship and beam them to the brig to carefully explain to them that we did not fire...the mere fact we are trying to explain to them would be proof we did not fire...after all why would we bother?.
The thing is, by the time you get to the explaining stage (assuming your ship isn't actually blown up by the Klingons first) you have actually fired on them and lost any proof you had that you had a full compliment of torpedoes before the battle. But then, I guess causing a diplomatic incident by getting into a battle with the Klingon flagship you were meant to be escorting is a perfect way to prove your innocence. You've not only made the situation worse, you've also dishonoured the Klingons by taking them prisoner! Taking a Klingon's honour will not result in peace.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Fawn = female deer.
Indeed it is, but FawnDoo <> female anything :-)
It's an interesting idea that the E-B was among the first ships to have site-to-site transport capability, but I'm glad they dropped the idea of Kirk being surprised at it. This is, after all, the man who kept so up to date with the ship's design he could reconfigure it's deflector dish in an emergency situation, so I would imagine he'd be just as up to date with other systems and newer features. Unless of course the designers of the E-B put a huge red button in deflector control labelled "in case of being trapped in an energy ribbon, press here!" ;-)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
FawnDoo's right: In DAY OF THE DOVE, Kirk & the Kang's consort do indeed site-to-site transport, but it's a very risky procedure and Scotty isn't sure it can be done properly. Fair to say that the Enterprise B is the first ship on which site-to-site transport is a safe, standard operation.
quote:I said disable their ship and beam them to the brig to carefully explain to them that we did not fire...the mere fact we are trying to explain to them would be proof we did not fire...after all why would we bother?.
No it wouldn't, especially since by your theory, we would've had to fire on them before beaming them over. How much credibility are you going to have? "Well, we didn't fire you on before we actually did."
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
And Kirk called it "intraship beaming" in DotD.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Right, perhaps beaming from the transporter room into another area of the ship is risky, but doable, since they have all the schematics of the ship and know precisely where everything is, so they can set the coordinates "blind." However, site-to-site transport seems to involve holding the transport-ee in the pattern buffer and then sending them straight on to another destination without ever materializing them on the transporter pad. I'd think that's a wholly different operation from what was done in DotD.
Posted by esecallum (Member # 2074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: Uh, you guys know that 'esecallum' is a totally new poster right? why even talk about ST:VI?
i thought he was supposed to say something about himself FIRST before lighting any topic fires?
there's better things to discuss that has already been talked into the dirt (Pretty sure Bernd has covered all of that at AES...)
esecallum, PLEASE... explain who you are, where you are from and what you political views about Pengiun Pr0n are, please good sir?
I am 19,I work in Washington state.I do research into medical claims by Big Pharma as well as having a broad range of interests.
I find it offensive that you mention penguin pron on a family site.
Posted by esecallum (Member # 2074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Aside from the obvious, the slight chink in that plan is that the couldn't beam them directly to the brig because site to site transports weren't possible then.
Point 1 :-
The site to site transporter is a trivial issue.
Ok beam them to the transporter pad.
I meant only beam over the dozen or so COMMAND CREW/leaders of the Klingons,after all it is they who need to be convinced. No point in beaming over the cook and the cleaner.
The Day of the Dove episodes proves it is possible.
point 2:-
All right then... he,Kirk, could just raise shields and go to warp speed away from any conflict.
As the Klingon ship was only damaged,they could explain it away that it was not them by showing them the logs and the neutrino surge and video logs showing Kirk never ordered any firing.
Remember they had video logs of the bridge in TOS as in the Finnegan pod episode.
Also why did the conspirators on the Klingon ship NOT fire anyway on the unshielded and undefended Enterprise after surrendering?
I mean nothing could stop them.3 shots and it would be toast.
Was it Chekov who said if "if they fire with shields down we could not respond"...
I thought Kkklingons don't take prisoners.
I mean if they had fired and destroyed the Enterprise anyway even after the surrendering they would still have achieved the same result of war.
Also the SHIELDED Enterprise always wins against a Klingon d7 katinga warship.Remember the Elaan of Troyius episode?
Also it was only the low value servant chancellor on board.It was not the Klingon Emperor.
Kirk could have explained that if he had wanted to destroy the D7 he could have,why would he just stop with damaging it slightly.Think about it. Why would he want to assassinate a Klingon leader he had not even met or even seen what he looks like?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
1) "Family site"?? 2) "Kkklingons"?? 3) It's K'Tinga. 4) Kronos One was never canonically said to be a K'Tinga, or a D7, or anything else, to my recollection. 5) "Low value servant chancellor"? What?? The Chancellor was the leader of the High Council; the High Council led the Klingon government at that time. There wasn't an emperor between 2069 and 2369 (when the clone of Kahless was reinstated in a ceremonial position). I reiterate - there was no Klingon emperor during the time of TOS, or any of the TOS movies.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
A fawn is not necessarily a female deer, but rather simply a young one. The term that denotes a female deer is doe. Clearly, someone hasn't seen The Sound Of Music in a while...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Point 1 :-
As pointed out, Gen. Chang, on the Klingon ship, as part of the conspiracy, knows for a fact that the Enterprise didn't fire. He doesn't care. Even if he wasn't aware, he still wouldn't care, ESPECIALLY after the Enterprise had opened fire on him.
quote:point 2:-
If the Enterprise ran away, the Klingons would be able to claim that they'd done so to destroy evidence that they'd fired on the Chancellor's ship.
If the Enterprise took defensive or offensive action, or ran away, they'd be as good as admitting guilt. What other option does that leave Kirk?
quote:I thought Kkklingons don't take prisoners.
You have to consider who said that, and if they were speaking from a factual basis or what they'd heard from rumor. Since Kirk & McCoy were taken prisoner, it's pretty clear the Klingons do, in fact, take prisoners. Actually, in DAY OF THE DOVE, Kang took Kirk and his landing party prisoner, too.
quote:Why would he want to assassinate a Klingon leader he had not even met or even seen what he looks like?
Did you even SEE Star Trek VI? Don't you remember his personal log from the film? The one the Klingons brought up in court? He hates Klingons. As a race. Because a Klingon killed his son.
Have you seen the film? I just ask, because it seems like you haven't. Anyway, that would've been Kirk's motive to fire. Doesn't matter if he didn't have one, though, from a Klingon perspective, Kirk could've just as easily been ordered to assassinate the Chancellor as a precursor to a Federation invasion of the Empire.
quote:Also it was only the low value servant chancellor on board.It was not the Klingon Emperor.
That'd be like assassinating the Prime Minister of England and then claiming he was "low value" because the Queen wasn't touched. Except that the Queen doesn't have any real political power to begin with, and the Klingons hadn't had an emperor for centuries by the time of Star Trek VI.
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by esecallum: Why would he want to assassinate a Klingon leader he had not even met or even seen what he looks like?
"I've never trusted Klingons...and I never will. I can never forgive them...for the death of my boy."
It's one of the most quoted and parodied lines in all of Trek, and comes from this movie...and is said by Kirk! It's in fact a major plot point!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Since we're in a quoting mood, consider the Klingon's opinion of him - "James.T Kirk: Renegade and Terrorist". Yeah, I'm sure they'll listen to any explanation from THAT guy.
Surrendering was the ONLY alternative to all out war. Again I quote "I will not be the instigator of full scale War, on the eve of universal peace".
If he opened fire on Kronos One, win or loose the battle there'd be War. If he ran away, he'd prove his cowardice in the eyes of the Klingons and there'd be War. If he kidnapped the bridge crew and tried to talk them around, the rest of the Klingon crew (remember the one's that saw the two Starfleet Officers beam over and go on a killing spree?) would blow the Enterprise out of the sky while Kirk's down in the brig with the slide shows, pointy stick and visual aids about how he's such a nice guy.
Also, even IF the chancellor was a "low value servant", which he clearly is not, there's still the oh so sticky point of firing on an enemy ship under a flag of truce. Added to that you have trespassing, assault and murder with witnesses to say the who dun did it.
Oh and not that anyone but Chang knew it at the time, but there was a cloaked BOP parked right underneath them, if they turned and ran to "avoid any engagement" you can bet they'd find a mysterious torpedo flying straight up their arse.
Posted by esecallum (Member # 2074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Since we're in a quoting mood, consider the Klingon's opinion of him - "James.T Kirk: Renegade and Terrorist". Yeah, I'm sure they'll listen to any explanation from THAT guy.
Surrendering was the ONLY alternative to all out war. Again I quote "I will not be the instigator of full scale War, on the eve of universal peace".
If he opened fire on Kronos One, win or loose the battle there'd be War. If he ran away, he'd prove his cowardice in the eyes of the Klingons and there'd be War. If he kidnapped the bridge crew and tried to talk them around, the rest of the Klingon crew (remember the one's that saw the two Starfleet Officers beam over and go on a killing spree?) would blow the Enterprise out of the sky while Kirk's down in the brig with the slide shows, pointy stick and visual aids about how he's such a nice guy.
Also, even IF the chancellor was a "low value servant", which he clearly is not, there's still the oh so sticky point of firing on an enemy ship under a flag of truce. Added to that you have trespassing, assault and murder with witnesses to say the who dun did it.
Oh and not that anyone but Chang knew it at the time, but there was a cloaked BOP parked right underneath them, if they turned and ran to "avoid any engagement" you can bet they'd find a mysterious torpedo flying straight up their arse.
Which would have REVEALED the EXISTENCE OF THE REAL CULPRITS AND PLAYED INTO KIRK'S HANDS and they could deal with the BOP and they could still defend themselves.
in Elaan of Troyius the Enterprise after suffering numerous hits by the Klingon d7 used the dilithium crystals from the necklace to restore power and then fired only 2 or 3 shots at the d7 which was "damaged" according to spock and then ran away which implies that another 2 or 3 shots and it would have been destroyed.
Do you agree?
Do you recall that episode?
Also going back to TUC,Kirk could have raised shields taken a few hits and fired back with the perfectly legitimate reason that it was self defense and totally destroyed the Kronos 1.It was just one ship after all and the Klingons were in no position to go to war anyway as Spock said they had only 50 years of life left.
Investigation would have revealed that it was a Klingon bird of prey or Kirk could even have claimed it was a cloaked Romulan bird of prey had fired to stop a Federation/Klingon Alliance and shifted attention away from Starfleet and it was not the Enterprise which had fired those initial torpedos and in the film the Romulans Ambassador Nerchnov had said "there will never be a better time" to strike at the Klingons who were weak economically and in their military power.
As the Kronos would be destroyed no one could contradict Kirk and his logs and no way the Klingons would make war about it as they were weak from the explosian and Starfleet would have been saved from the burden of looking after billions of uncontrollable Klingons which would have further weakened Starfleet and also allowed internal factionalism by the Klingon refugees to disrupt peace within the Federation and in fact would actually be an achilles heel for the Federation allowing the Romulans to take advantage of this.
Thus Kirk by being hard nosed and pragmatic would actually be doing a favour to the Federation in the long run by making the Klingons even more suspicious of Romulans.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Elaan of Troyus was several years earlier. Klingon ships no doubt had improved technologically. While it's true that the Enterprise had improved in that same time period, there is no indication that the Enterprise could STILL outclass and defeat a D7, K'Tinga or the Chancellor's ship (for those who want to quibble over the class).
As pointed out numerous times above, the Chancellor was the highest political official of the Klingon Empire at that time. Killing him, even in self defense would have sparked an intergalactic incident.
Even as it was tensions were high. Not only was Starfleet considering a rescue operation but they were openly sharing this knowledge and tactical data with the Romulans.
Kirk DID NOT KNOW about the cloaked Bird of Prey. His choice to surrender vs. fight was not based upon knowledge of that ship.
Chang's Bird of Prey, however, would have proved to be a valuable witness for the Klingons. Evidence would have been fabricated to show that the Enterprise did fire upon Q'onos 1 first and then subsequently damaged or destroyed the ship. Enterprise records were already showing that they had fired first.
In fact, Chang would have then felt justified to decloak and join the assault against the Enterprise. It could then easily be claimed that the Klingons were suspicious of Starfleet and thus felt the need to keep a cloaked Bird of Prey nearby for escort and protection. Some lie would have been spun to explain the ships presence.
If you, in the Klingon's shoes, were to give Kirk the benefit of the doubt after A)He fired on your ship first and unprovoked and B)Fired again and disabled your ship or C)Fired again and destroyed your ship then you are probably a much better man than the Klingons.
The Klingons may have been weakened and a war may have exhausted them (which is really in question since they were still a strong empire 100 years later) but the Klingons aren't the type of species to simply ignore an incident like this. They would have rather died as a species fighting the Federation than to sit back and not retaliate against the murderers of their Chancellor.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by esecallum:
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: Uh, you guys know that 'esecallum' is a totally new poster right? why even talk about ST:VI?
i thought he was supposed to say something about himself FIRST before lighting any topic fires?
there's better things to discuss that has already been talked into the dirt (Pretty sure Bernd has covered all of that at AES...)
esecallum, PLEASE... explain who you are, where you are from and what you political views about Pengiun Pr0n are, please good sir?
I am 19,I work in Washington state.I do research into medical claims by Big Pharma as well as having a broad range of interests.
I find it offensive that you mention penguin pron on a family site.
Heh, still think all your pulling is attention son. my point is, your new and seriously just making flames instead of DISCUSSION. you first post was a attack on a movie plot instead of a fact finding opion question, sir, thus why i attack YOU instead of you first post's intent (which i dont actually believe to be even anything to do with ST. i say again, dead topic, dead horse...
so put the flamer down (cause so am i at the moment) since the rest of the gang jumped on this horse with vengence, so be it. nit picking isn't always fun (unless it's Macross or Battletech. i'll dry that subject into the dirt on a bad day)
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
This isn't nit picking. This is like somebody arguing that we'd just nuked Cuba we could've avoided that whole missile crisis thing. Somebody who wasn't even sure where Cuba was or when the missile crisis took place. Also, I'm going to go masturbate to penguin porn.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Esecallum, please tell me you have no aspirations to foreign service duty.
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: This isn't nit picking. This is like somebody arguing that we'd just nuked Cuba we could've avoided that whole missile crisis thing. Somebody who wasn't even sure where Cuba was or when the missile crisis took place. Also, I'm going to go masturbate to penguin porn.
Something like that is probably how the Mirror Universe got started. I mean someone making the wrong tactical decision with regards to something like Cuba, not masturbating over penguin porn. Although knowing how the Mirror Universe was portrayed, both could work... Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
That would only work if it was lesbian penguin porn, given how often the MU episodes threw in a little girl-on-girl action. Not that it was cheap titillation intended to prop up weak scripts, oh no. Any gratuitous lesbianism was a completely integral part of the story. :-)
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
You mean there's non-lesbian penguin porn now?? What an age we live in!
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Dude, that's what I like about Ent's mirror episodes. Proper, old-fashioned, women-seducing-men-of-power, just as God intended.
Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
Well... minus the lesbianism. That is something that brings into fruition in the 24th Century MU.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
In all fairness there is quite a bit of women seducing women of power too, but after a while it did all tend to get a bit gratuitous and yawn-inducing.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I think I might have mis-expressed... I was saying that I prefer ST:ENT's MU eps to the DS9 ones because every woman on the ship wasn't a lesbian.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
and thus esecallum, proves my point about SC-F:
when one requires devious means to win brownie points, win flame wars or prove with out a doubt that Lebian Peguin Pr0n and Smurf Bondage GO SO FUCKING WELL, with each other,
proves the point that i drive the bus into oncoming traffic with skill, flare and mildly neurotic Pink Haired Halflings...
i think.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Dude, seriously. Lay off the fucking peyote.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I think we've successfully proved that this isn't and was never meant to be a family forum. *lol*
--Jonah
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Yeah, i was totally like WTF? here? family values? is this guy from another anybody is familiar with? /me tosses Shik the bong *dont use it myself sir *
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by esecallum: I thought it was quite ridiculous of Captain Kirk to surrender as the klingons were about to fire back.
He should never have said "We surrender,signal our surrender".
I think it's what is called 'dramatic tension'. Kirk saying 'we surrender'!?! and to the KLINGONS!! That sets up a story!!
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
just as i thought. this esecallum is possibly just a forum troll. his nick according to google is on at least a dozen forums... Heck, my name has 3 versions to check for my hits...
at least when i discuss, troll or brake out the toasty flamer, i smile and wave after the fact...
so.... Giants & Pats, people, thoughts?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Feh. Seaturkeys let me down in Green Bay. Pansies couldn't handle a little snow. After that, I don't give two craps who walks off with it.
--Jonah
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Esecallum, please tell me you have no aspirations to foreign service duty.
Well, international relations is just one country fucking another. So he'd probably be pretty good at it. Or bad, depending on whose doing the fucking.
Oops, I said "fucking" is that allowed on a "family site"?
This whole thread makes me LOL. Especially that first post.
Posted by esecallum (Member # 2074) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Elaan of Troyus was several years earlier. Klingon ships no doubt had improved technologically. While it's true that the Enterprise had improved in that same time period, there is no indication that the Enterprise could STILL outclass and defeat a D7, K'Tinga or the Chancellor's ship (for those who want to quibble over the class).
As pointed out numerous times above, the Chancellor was the highest political official of the Klingon Empire at that time. Killing him, even in self defense would have sparked an intergalactic incident.
Even as it was tensions were high. Not only was Starfleet considering a rescue operation but they were openly sharing this knowledge and tactical data with the Romulans.
Kirk DID NOT KNOW about the cloaked Bird of Prey. His choice to surrender vs. fight was not based upon knowledge of that ship.
Chang's Bird of Prey, however, would have proved to be a valuable witness for the Klingons. Evidence would have been fabricated to show that the Enterprise did fire upon Q'onos 1 first and then subsequently damaged or destroyed the ship. Enterprise records were already showing that they had fired first.
In fact, Chang would have then felt justified to decloak and join the assault against the Enterprise. It could then easily be claimed that the Klingons were suspicious of Starfleet and thus felt the need to keep a cloaked Bird of Prey nearby for escort and protection. Some lie would have been spun to explain the ships presence.
If you, in the Klingon's shoes, were to give Kirk the benefit of the doubt after A)He fired on your ship first and unprovoked and B)Fired again and disabled your ship or C)Fired again and destroyed your ship then you are probably a much better man than the Klingons.
The Klingons may have been weakened and a war may have exhausted them (which is really in question since they were still a strong empire 100 years later) but the Klingons aren't the type of species to simply ignore an incident like this. They would have rather died as a species fighting the Federation than to sit back and not retaliate against the murderers of their Chancellor.
I was clearly mislead that this was a high quality forum,as most of the members here seem to be little more than the back biting,sniping variety who cannot string more then a sentence together and obsessed with beastiality,porn and profanity...with the exception of you and a very few others....
But going back to the discussion I can only say your deus ex machina is not involved.Just watch that episode and you will see I am correct.
Also what was the point of a peace treaty as they were not even at war anyway.
So the reason for Gorkons visit is non-existent.
Romulans hostility existed towards the Klingons and the Klingons would easily have believed they had destroyed the Kronos.
It is not as if Kirk had not lied before.In the Corbomite Manoeveur he lied about the Corbomite device.
All politicians lie.All people lie.Everyone lies.
In Elann of Troyius the Enterprise dilithium crystals had been sabotaged by onboard andorians and they discovered replacements in the necklace which the Princess was wearing but meantime were hit 8 times by a d7.
When power was restored they fired 2 or 3 shots and the Klingons were damaged and ran away.Another 2 or 3 and they would be destroyed proving that the d7 is not a match for the Enterprise.
Remember Kirk never got a fair trial.It was a kangeroo court with people yelling from the multi storey aisles.
I never said Kirk should assassinate Gorkon.That had been done by the Kligons themselves.By surrendering you put yourself at great risk of death,torture and mutilation by unprincipled rogues.Further you display weakness.
Kirk could have countered that the Klingons had killed him as they really did not want peace.He should have beamed over Azetbur and convinced her that it was the Romulans or the Klingons by showing her the neutrino surge and playing the video logs as it would have been impossible to tamper with the evidence that quickly.Once she had been convinced she would be beamed back and would either seek out the conspirators or break off diplomatic relations with the Romulans or even destroy a few of their outposts in revenge.
Also evidence cannot be tampered with as if you did tamper with it,it can be shown that it has been tampered with.
Kirk could even have claimed that a bomb planted by klingon conspirators had exploded on board the Kronos and no one could have proved it otherwise as it happened in Federation space with the wreckage not available to the klingons.
In fact the film could have been similar to a ds9 episode in which The Romulns were enticed wth fake evidence.
In TUC the film could have been about how Kirk managed to convince the Klingons it was not him and that it was someone else.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I find it offensive that you find penguin porn offensive. There's nothing better than two penguins fucking each other. Especially if they're both girl penguins.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I don't know if this counts as site to site transport, but in one episode of Star Trek Enterprise, doesn't Archer get beamed to the ship's computer core?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by esecallum: I was clearly mislead this was a high quality forum,but most of the members here seem to be little more than the back biting,sniping variety who cannot string more then a sentance together and obsessed with beastiality...with the exception of you and a very few others....
Ok, your new, so I'm going to forgive the fact that you didn't get the penguin porn joke. Which is what it was. But I will not tolerate you or anyone else bashing this; the greatest forum on the interwebz. With the exception of you and a very few others, this forum is ripe with intelligent discussion. Some of it's not even about Star Trek believe it or not. I think a lot of us would agree that this forum has a certain elitist quality to it. We're wary of newcomers because most of them are either trying to sell something, or advertise their website, or they come in here without introduction and go off with some cockamamie idea about a movie that's already been discussed to death and then some. Sound familiar? I bet it does. As for the "back biting, and sniping" look whose name is up there with the first post. I've read through this entire thread up to this point, which is also the most time I've spent on a Star Trek portion of this board. I've watched some of the movies and some of the shows. So I can't delve too deeply into this stuff as some of the others here, but frankly dude, some of your ideas are just plain whack. Not only do they not fit in with what the writers and directors of the movie envisioned, but they don't even make sense to some of the more learned Trek fans of this forum.
I'm running out of things to say now, so I'll end with this: Who the hell do you think you are?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
You were certainly misled that this forum was somehow "family-friendly." As for high quality, I invite you to rebut the arguments below with logic and reason and facts instead of your own ideas. It'd also help your image as a reasonable person if you'd admit when you made a mistake, such as the Gorkon-Emperor bit.
Also, real life isn't a strategy game. You aren't simply "at war" or "at peace." You can sign a peace treaty even if you're not at war, as much as that might blow your mind. There's a difference between non-aggression and peace, and a difference between de facto peace and de juris peace.
Kirk is not a politician, so politicians' habits have nothing to do with what he may or may not do. He's a Starfleet captain, which has no perfect analogue in our society - but you'd be quite close to think of him as a high-ranking military officer, not a politician.
You don't have to "tamper with the evidence that quickly." Think before you type for crissakes. He could have tampered with the evidence beforehand. You don't plan an assassination for weeks or months only to have no alibis, evidence, or contingency plans to back you up.
Plus, Kirk didn't know what the hell was happening. He didn't know when he said "I surrender" about any neutrino surge, funny video, Chang, cloaked BOP, Romulans, any of that. He had no clue yet what was going on.
"Evidence cannot be tampered with"? Are you serious? Again, real life (and quality entertainment) isn't a game or silly TV drama where all the crime scene techs are 100% perfect and super-knowledgeable. Evidence is tampered with all the time - sometimes it's discovered, sometimes it isn't. Azetbur isn't a scientist anyway, so how would she know how to see if the evidence had been tampered with? Specifically, things like sensor logs - how would the Klingons use Federation computers to show that Federation sensor logs had been tampered with, when high-level Federation officials such as Starfleet captains would be able to *erase* any evidence of tampering such as access logs?
As you say - the wreckage not available to the Klingons. SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY BELIEVE HIM? "Oh, OUR ship blew up in YOUR space, and you won't let us examine it for ourselves? Sure, we'll take your word for it." Is that how you would react? If so you're a gullible fool.
Sure, it could've been about how Kirk managed to convince the Klingons it wasn't him and was in fact somebody else. Oh, wait -- IT WAS! Have you SEEN the movie?? That's EXACTLY what happens!
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
You guys completely missed my joke about penguin porn. Can we stay on topic, please?
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by esecallum: Also evidence cannot be tampered with
I'm sure all those people throughout history who've been wrongfully arrested due to evidence tampering will love that...but then obviously the concept of a frameup is completely fictional. Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
I've had enough of this.
Haven't had the chance recently to put on a padlock *dusts one off now*
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
*
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)