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Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :

On tonight's ET Enterprise Preview, they showed what is apparently the new briefing room, complete with what looks like the good ol' Pool Table updated to display ship information. On the table, and the monitor behind it on the wall, there were what looked like the same top view image of the Pre-E as was published in TV guide.

Therefore, all you people saying that the design may yet be changed, looks like she's a done deal.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

What you see is what you get.....
But I don't want it....

I have peeped too much about it, but it does seem a wee bit advanced looking....

Then again, mayhap it is a stunt to hide the truth.....

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

Yes lets all Put on the Blinders to what is obviously the true design.

Who here can say the Naboo Starfighter looks like it came earlier then the X-Wing.

You all seem to forget its 2001 not the 60s.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

Dr. Obvious:

The whole idea of a prequel series IMHO is to create a retroactive feeling. If you want people to feel like this Ent series is taking place 100 years before TOS, then you should should make it look like it. It should look like something out of the sixties, or it won't be convincing as an 'old' series.

BTW, the Naboo fighter didn't come before the X-Wing. The X-Wing was a very old design by the time the Rebels got their hands on it.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

If you start talking about SW ships I'm going to lecture you all.

Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :

Now listen: I'm going to end all future discussions on Star Wars ships on this thread. The X-Wing was based on the design of the Z-95 Headhunter, which existed for a while before the Naboo fighter. Incom, the creator of the Z-95, was working on the X-Wing a few years before A New Hope. When the Rebels learned of this, they got Incom engineers to defect with their plans. Since the Rebellion did not exist until (at most) 10 years before ANH, the X-Wing could not have been developed until that time. While the Z-95 might have been around before the Naboo N-1 Starfighter, the X-Wing most DEFINITELY was not. So, Mr. Mim--your answer?

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

In that case I'll use my default argument.

The Naboo are master shipbuilders and they are an ancient and highly advanced race. Naturally, their ships would reflect this. In addition, they are a largely peaceful people who are rarely involved in conflict, and so the fighters in TPM were for all intensive purposes BRAND-SPANKING NEW. (Ergo the shiny-ness.) The X-Wings of the Alliance in ANH had been used much and maintained marginally, in keeping with the idea of an ill-equipped, ragtag bunch of REBELS!!! (a la the Maquis.)

Your comments, General?

Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :

I sense a threat from another member to go take this in another thread. But anyway, ANH was 32 years after Episode I. Those X-Wings did not have 32 years of use on them. If they did, they would be broken down. And, if they were new, would incom still be making a 32 year design? Star Trek is a different galaxy, so Excelsiors, Oberths, and Mirandas are not part of this discussion.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

"Those X-Wings did not have 32 years of use on them. If they did, they would be broken down."

I disagree.

"And, if they were new, would incom still be making a 32 year design?"

Yes.

In conclusion, for a civilisation as old as the one in the SW galaxy, their industrial resources are likely to last much longer than those in modern times.

For further discussion, take this to the SW forum.

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

I'm sticking with my rationalization: it's not 100 years BEFORE TOS, it's 100 years AFTER FIRST CONTACT.

Mark

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

Dr.O:
Perhaps the SW analogy wasn't such a great idea?

Mark:
FC is a small part of Trek.
TOS is a HUGE part of Trek.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's also almost 35 years old. If you want a show that looks 100 years older than TOS, you'll need to film it at the Edison Museum, in glorious Kinetovision!

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Sol System ]

Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :

OK, no more Star Wars discussion.

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

My Knowledge of SW Ships is limited , I just took what I assumed and put it in , so thanks for the history lesson

quote:
The whole idea of a prequel series IMHO is to create a retroactive feeling. If you want people to feel like this Ent series is taking place 100 years before TOS, then you should should make it look like it. It should look like something out of the sixties, or it won't be convincing as an 'old' series.

No , The whole Idea of a prequel series is to tell the story of what happened before TOS , how they tell it as in Set Design , Art , Ships etc is up to the producers. Making a show look like it belongs in teh sixties is not practicle , they are trying to attract NEW viewers and turn them away with bad set design, special effects and costumes?

To this day i cant watch TOS and not laugh when i see Spock's PADD device / huge clipboard.

Think about it , a Show about the Future with all the props looking like they belong in some 50s B movie.

Not to mention the fact they have said time and time again they want to attract new viewers who wouldnt exactly have to know the ins and outs of Trek to understand Enterprise , who would they do that when everything looking TOSish ?

I'm a trek fan and i probley wouldnt watch a show like that. I dont think i could hold in the laughter.

quote:
Mark:
FC is a small part of Trek.
TOS is a HUGE part of Trek

TOS is just that TOS , The producers want to leave that in the past , and I agree with them.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

If you want to leave it in the past then leave it in the past. Don't come up with a new show that's supposed to be older than it, but looks far newer.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

The Phoenix in FC was very well done. It looked exactly as it should. When you saw it, it reminded you of the old tech of the original Enterprise. This is NOT by any stretch the case with Ent. This ship is just not right. It looks anachronistic, and so I'm hoping that that's exactly what it is: and anachronism. Otherwise, it's just stupid.

Sorry to be blunt.

Posted by Wes1701E (Member # 212) on :

Whats the point of that post? You've said this in at least 4 other threads. Yes, we know, you don't like it. Move on.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Wes1701E ]

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

Do you like ignore whole paragraphs in my posts?

They want to make a show that looks Futuristic to todays viewer , not to people who have watched the rest of trek. And I agree with Mark , the producers are using First Contact as their base design.

By your logic of "prequel" First Contact should have been shot with all the 21st Century wearing TOSish costuming and props and set design ,and the ship should have been a Real Model except of a CGI Model with no detailing.

That would be an abomination , not Enterprise.

This Enterprise fits the time frame. But I guess they cant please everyone.

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

quote:
Don't come up with a new show that's supposed to be older than it, but looks far newer.

Uhh Mim , ITS NOT MEANT TO BE A PREQUEL TO TOS ITS MEANT TO TELL THE STORY OF THE PRE FEDERATION ENTERPRISE.

Just look at it that way. Since you obviously were praying they were going to go do a TOS remake or somthing. They want to make a successful show , not a laughing stock.

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I would like an Enterprise that looks like it could have predated TOS. I do not believe that TPTB need to make something cheesy and cheap looking to do that.

I first pondered the question of how a designer could pull off a cool pre-TOS look waaaay back when Harve Bennet was trying to push through his Kirk and Spock at the academy idea.

Basically I always felt that a talented designer could take an approach that drew heavily on the aesthetic sensibilities of the late 40s-50s. It doesn't have to look more primative than TOS, just like something that looks like it could have preceded it.

I think the current Star Trek Universe justification is that TOS looked like it did because that was the style of the 2260s (though I have only Jadzia's tricorder speech from Trials and Tribblations to back up this theory). There were buttons and switches and big stupid looking clipboard thingees because that was the cool style of the day. Things that looked stupid in TOS do not have to look stupid in Enterprise.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

I'm not saying they should use a cheap model. I'm saying that the Phoenix looked old. The magnificent model of the E-nil from Trials and Tribble-ations, even with Greg Jein's added, enhancing surface detailing, looked old. This Ent does not look old, and it should.

Obi Juan:
I should smack you for that remark. I don't think anything on TOS looked stupid. Well, except for maybe that Indian headband thingee Kirk wore in that one ep...

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

Theres a Differance between Enterprise and those 2 examples you made.

#1 The CGI Artists in Trails and Tribulations already had a design and a frame work to stay in.

#2 The Phoenix was built on an ICBM Booster , so they knew the ship had to be a cylinder base shape then add a whole bunch of things

I'm sorry to say but TOS was camp as camp could get , I mean i probley would have been laughing my ass off even back in 60s , not that I didnt like TOS , the stories were cool , but I could never get over the probs and stuff.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Dr. Obvious ]

Posted by Wes1701E (Member # 212) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
This Ent does not look old, and it should.

Really? I think it looks old. Oh well. All opinions.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"The CGI Artists in Trails and Tribulations already had a design and a frame work to stay in."

What CGI artists? The Enterprise, D7 and K-7 station were all models built by Greg Jein.

And I don't think that he really added much surface detail at all. The original ship had a lot more detail than we saw. It was just washed out by the bright lights and poor film used.

"I don't think anything on TOS looked stupid."

Did you see the Tellerites in Journey to Babel?

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

The discussion has moved on from the Star Wars bit but the comment still bears expressing.

Does anybody think that defending the concept of a prequel series is helped by citing The Phantom Menace? That's like defending the concept of dirigibles by citing the Hindenburg...

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

If you want to know what the sets/props/costumes would look like if logically 100 years prior to TOS - watch Forbidden Planet.

Much as I love the movie - I wouldn't want those designs

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

The Powerpuff Girls film to going to be a prequel.

It's the in thing, it seems.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

At least it'll probably be consistent.
And yes, while I liked TPM, it just didn't look like a prequel, did it?

All you fans of modern tech out there, as horrifying as it may seem, I for one would like to see a campy, retro, sci-fi series done in the style and spirit of TOS. You, know, sort of like a little time travel trip. Much more effective than those damnable imitation VW Beetles you see everywhere these days.

Go ahead, scoff if you like, but I think it would be great.

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

I think you all know what I think, I'm siding with MMoM.

Although I wouldn't want the campness of TOS, the style, feel, and pre-designs I would want. It should look as if it does indeed precede the TOS time period. If you want to embrace and acknowledge the whole Star Trek universe, then it's got to be heavily centred around a plausible continuity.

Who cares if the tech seems retro. That's what it looked like in TOS. And so what if you think it looks cheesy? Trek doesn't have an everlasting life span in this respect, because 20 years from now we may be laughing at TNG for looking so '80s', etc.... Something to ponder isn't it...

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

The Red Admiral , if they dont modernize Star Trek it probley wont be on in 20 years.

They are not trying to make a TOS prequel , they are making a new Star Trek series that tells the story of what happend before it. This show isnt for the hardcore fan , i think its pretty obvious they are trying to reinvent Star Trek for modern times , going back and rehashing TOS will not do this , They want to move away from TOS , personally I think its the way to go , they dont want "Just Another Star Trek Show"

I know you all cant seem to understand this move , but if some have to be left behind for the franchise to live and Prosper , not just stay alive , I am all for it.

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Dr. Obvious ]

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

I agree Doc, in many ways, I really do. But it is in the fashion they are going back that worries me. I think 'Enterprise' has a wonderful concept behind it, and if it doesn't work there can be no excuses at all. It's just set up to be a winner, ie, man going out into space to discover and explore brand new races and worlds, and to see how it all began. If they fail with this, I just couldn't begin to quantify the magnitude of incompetence it would take.

It's just unfortunate that we're so dim, stubborn and inflexible that we will lose nights sleep over continuity errors. But I can't avoid it, I'm hooked up in Trek to the neck - it's in my blood, everything, and all the minutiae thereof. What can I say, I'm a geek!

I think a part of me is really really gunna miss the 24th century. I don't want this era to be left behind. perhaps it's that which is hindering my ability to adapt...

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: The Red Admiral ]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

It won't be left behind. I'd bet we'll get at least one more TNG movie. After that, we might get a mixed cast movie, or, depending on the success of Enterprise, they might wait for that to finish before spinning it off onto the big screen.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

It's a mistake, and nothing good will come of it.
Has it occurred to anyone that Trek may have had her heyday and is growing a little tired of being re-invented every seven years by whoever happens to be running Paramount at the time? The films will continue on, but I think more new series is a bad thing. There's no way in hell you can maintain continuity and believabilty for six television series. Hell, they've already had to take the one that made the least money (TAS) and declare it non-canon. Voyager was a disaster. Now there's this. It just isn't healthy for the franchise. They should wait some years, a time comparable to the gap between TOS and TNG, and then it will do far better. Give Trek some breathing room.

Posted by Dr. Obvious (Member # 271) on :

The Red Adml : I understand , I used to be like that , but nowadays I figure you cant nitpick anything untill you nitpick yourself , and I dont like self exploration , I'm scared of me.

MMoM : Star Trek has gone through very little change since TNG IMO , Trek has alot of potenial , they just need to modernize it.

Part of me does agree that Star Trek does seem to have run its course , but at the same time I think Enterprise could add some life the franchise , they are trying to Dump atleast some of the "geekness" from Star Trek by making it more contemporary, and whether its a huge failure or a big success that leads to a new form of Trek that keeps the Series alive and fresh , it is defenatley worth the gamble. Frankly Mim , its to early to tell what this might be , so stop crying wolf already , and sit back and WAIT , We will know in September , what to expect of this series , not in July or August , in September when the show premires.

Odds are it could very well be Good Trek and you will watch it anyway , it might even be one of those Guilty pleasures , like listening to NSYNC's Pop Song , yes... You cant tell me that song isnt catchy , you cant. Its simply impossbile not to atleast kinda starg dancing when you listen to that song ...

You Cant ...

So Dont try...

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Dr. Obvious ]

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

"'Know thyself'? If I knew myself, I'd run away!"

~ Don't know where it came from (It DID come from somewhere though. )

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"...NSYNC's Pop Song..."

Wouldn't that be all of their songs...?

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Tim: Apparently they didn't think that was obvious enough when the song needed a title. I guess it's a bit like 98 degrees entitling a song "Shit."

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I seriously doubt they'll be able to stay away from the lure of trying to incorporate the future.

possible $$$$

I'm still betting that the Future-Enemy-Guy is going to turn out to be someone that we already know...

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

If I say it'll probably turn out to be Gul Dukat, the fanboys will most likely come in their pants. . .

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

Yeh, I thought Gul Dukat as well. Also Tomalak, Q, Sela are possibly other candidates. It's likely to be someone we know....

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

quote:
Tomalak

Um, this would be brilliant.

quote:
Sela

This less so.

Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :

To those who think TOS is "campy"...

Watch the contemporary television of the time. A mid-60s episode of Bonanza illustrates just how good TOS was by comparison. It didn't look that cheap, and the acting was downright subtle (Shatner notwithstanding) compared to a lot of the contemporary shows. And camp? Camp is Batman (Zap! Pow!) and the latter two seasons of Lost in Space ("Oh, the pain.")

Sure, TOS looks dated, but TNG is also starting to look creaky. The video compositing in the first seasons is looking nearly as archaic as some TOS effects. And the totally 80s women's big hair hairdos...ow.

As to a retro look, you could very well design a look that would feel related to TOS but would not look cornball. All you have to do is pick the right design esthetic and push it to the hilt. Art Deco came out in the 20s and people still use elements of that style in architecture today, and it doesn't necessarily look cheesy or cornball or even 1920s.

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Newt:
Point taken, and apologies. Actually, my main criticism against the TOS actors is their performances during the last 6 movies.

(not Shatner, Kelly or Nimoy)