I hope maybe next season they build another starship.
Enterprise all alone is kinda boring.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
You mean, like Voyager? And TOS? And TNG? And DS9?
Do you mean you hope that they build another NX Class ship? I believe we'll see another star fleet ship, but not of the NX class. Actually, that's what I'm hoping will happen. I don't think they'll spend more than an episode with it though.
I think the whole point of the show is that they're out there alone. Most of the series seem to concentrate on one ship or group. We didn't see a new starship design in TNG until the Nebula (I believe...). TOS never gave us anything but the Constitution and the glowy blobs. Voyager made us wait for the the Prometheus in season... 3? And DS9 didn't give us the Defiant until season 3 either.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Then you're watching the wrong show, buddy.
Even if the Earth Starfleet did launch even several other NX-class starships right "now" (in the series), the chance of the Enterprise running into them -- even on purpose -- is extremely slim. Or do you think that the Humans would send their other starhips to follow the same route already charted by the NX-01 instead of heading out in other directions?
The Enterprise is currently about 100 light-years away from Earth. Assuming that the second NX-class starship (NX-02, presumably) set out at approximately a 30� angle away from the NX-01's trajectory and travelled 50 light-years, the NX-02 would be over 60 light-years away from the NX-01. If the NX-02 travelled another 50 light-years along that trajectory, they'd still be 50 light-years away from the NX-01. And all this is considering a very narrow 30� angle -- which is tiny considering the vastness of local space, something you don't seem to quite understand.
The only forseeable scenario where we could credibly meet other NX-class starships is if Starfleet specifically gathers several of them in one place for something other than exploration -- say, to fight the Romulans. (Note: I am *not* necessarily endorsing that plot line, just offering a possibility.) Sending multiple exploration ships into the same region of space makes practically no sense at all.
Posted by Anti Spark (Member # 949) on :
Whoa! Now I feel all alone.
Thanks for the great answers.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm still not sure what you're asking: Are you hoping to see another NX class ship, or just another Starfleet ship?
Posted by Anti Spark (Member # 949) on :
Yeah another NX class.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:We didn't see a new starship design in TNG until the Nebula
Wrong. TNG's first "original" Starfleet design (besides the Enterprise) was the Constellation-Class.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Actually, wasn't the first TNG design that proto-Ambassador sketch + wall-model?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Im sure they mean ship models designed as spacefaring counterparts to the Enterprise-D. As I recall the order of fresh saucers (outside of kitbashes) we saw on TNG was: Galaxy, Constellation, Ambassador, Nebula, (T'Pau), (Soyuz), Sydney, Olympic/Hope - Sovereign, Akira, Norway, Sabre, Steamrunner, Holoship.
Voyager had: Itself, (Yellowstone), Aeon, Prometheus, (Dauntless), Raven, Relativity, Nova.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Actually, wasn't the first TNG design that proto-Ambassador sketch + wall-model?
The painting wasn't used, so it doesn't count.
The wall model debuted at the same time as the desktop model of the Stargazer, and since the wall model really wasn't the eventual design for the Ent-C, the Stargazer design wins.
But as far as an acutal filmed studio model goes, it was the Stargazer.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Even if the Earth Starfleet did launch even several other NX-class starships right "now" (in the series), the chance of the Enterprise running into them -- even on purpose -- is extremely slim. Or do you think that the Humans would send their other starhips to follow the same route already charted by the NX-01 instead of heading out in other directions?
You're assuming ENT makes sense, and that NX-01 is following some sort of planned-out route, versus C'pt Archer just saying "fire the fruiton torpedoes, make us go that way". How many times have we heard of the ship doubling back, visiting populated systems, and so forth? They can hardly be traveling anywhere near a straight forward course.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Yeah, they do seem to double back a lot, and at that, they dont seem to really be doing any serious exploring.
Its as if they just jump on the expressway/freeway/autobahn and get off every few exits that have some sight of interest. If they were doing a more strenuous job at it they would be hitting every 'exit' and not be so far out from Earth in just the first year and a half.
Considering also that they have thrice visited the Vulcan/Andorian spacezone, so either their territory is smattered all over the quadrant or the enterprise is indeed doing an elliptical course around earth as they venture out in space, encountering the Vulcan/Andorian spacezone each of the 3 possible revolutions they would have made in that elliptical course pattern.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Crap. Yes... I forgot about the Constellation Class...
*smacks head*
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Aurora was a Federation ship, or was implied to be, as I recall. Of course, it was just a Tholian ship with nacelles stuck on, so I guess that may or may not count.
Crazy spoilers may follow!
There's a good chance of seeing a Starfleet ship or two in the upcoming fiftieth episode flashback. Not NX class, though.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
The Aurora was just blandly identified as a "space cruiser", its been a while since I have seen the episode, but thats what the encyclopedia identifies it as.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
$Spoilers$
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Doesn't the Enterprise encounter an assimilated Earth vessel in the Borg-episode?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Too soon to tell. The whole plot hasn't been confirmed yet (though I have no doubt it will be.)
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Yep its offical. Oh,Well at least we may see the human transport
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Interestingly enough, this version of spoilers doesn't say anything at all about the "arctic terrain" being on Earth. Rather, it makes it sound as if the Borg would be found on some other planet entirely, as the scientists have a warp-capable transport ship rather than a hovercraft or a submarine.
The official blurb-length synopsis mentions a team on Earth, though...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Somehow, the 22nd Century NX-01 will triumph over 24th Century Borg and their technology.
Almost makes me miss Voyager.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The Borg are only as powerful as what they assimilate. An assimilated 22nd century transport would probably be no match for the NX-01. Witness "Drone", where the 29th century drone did some major ass-whoopin' to the 24th century ship.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
In fact, we really have no idea of what the Borg's overall power level will be like in the 22nd century. If you look at Q Who, there's a fair chance that the Enterprise could have destroyed that cube if they'd have kept firing. But then the Borg adapt, and become seemingly invincible. By the time of First Contact, Starfleet has managed to "adapt" back, as it's weapons are now damaging to the Borg shop. Just not much.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: The Borg are only as powerful as what they assimilate. An assimilated 22nd century transport would probably be no match for the NX-01. Witness "Drone", where the 29th century drone did some major ass-whoopin' to the 24th century ship.
Witness "The Raven" (at least I think that was the eps), in which Seven steals a shuttle and overwhelms a small fleet of ships.
It's not the size, it's how you use it.
And these are 24th Century drones who have access to 24th Century technology. Ain't no Quantum torpedoes around.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: In fact, we really have no idea of what the Borg's overall power level will be like in the 22nd century. If you look at Q Who, there's a fair chance that the Enterprise could have destroyed that cube if they'd have kept firing. But then the Borg adapt, and become seemingly invincible. By the time of First Contact, Starfleet has managed to "adapt" back, as it's weapons are now damaging to the Borg shop. Just not much.
Possibly, but then wouldn't have First Contact been a pretty useles movie? If the Borg really were that weak in the 22nd century, then the Borg Queen contacting the Borg of the 21st to assimilate Earth early would have been pretty useless. They'd have to at least get by the Vulcans. At least if we assume 21st century Vulcan ships >= NX-01. Still Raven pushed back first contact with the Borg before TNG? Now this is going to push it back to the 22nd century? That means the Borg would be sitting around on their ass for over two centuries after learning about Earth before sending a cube our way. Unless the Borg in ENT don't get a chance to send back a signal.
Oh well.
I guess we'll find out, won't we?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Actually, ST7 sort of pushed it back to the 2290s, and ST8 pushed it back to the 2060s.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote: That means the Borg would be sitting around on their ass for over two centuries after learning about Earth before sending a cube our way.
Actually I think Q caused the events of Q Who - and beyond. I don't believe the Borg would have worried about the Enterprise if it didn't just appear out of no where in a flash of light and then disappear the sameway a few hours later. That's tech I'm sure they'd want, except it's Q-tech. And The Borg probably don't "get" or "comprehend" something like the Q, so they keep thinking it's Fed tech.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I doubt this is a popular opinion, but I really enjoyed the bit in "Q2" where Q the Younger got a bit of a chewing out from Q the Elder about conjuring up a few Borg cubes. "Don't taunt the Borg!" Why? Well, it seems to me that it would be just the opposite of what Andrew said. I have no doubt the Q could wipe them out if they wanted, but I also suspect that the Borg, to the extent they are aware of the Q, consider them as just another obstacle to surpass. In other words, I doubt there's anything like fear or respect there, and we know that the Q cultivate those things just as much as they do physical power.
Essentially, I guess I'm saying that the Borg probably can't be controlled by the Q in the sense that "smaller" entities can, short of destroying them completely, and that might bother the Q.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:That means the Borg would be sitting around on their ass for over two centuries after learning about Earth before sending a cube our way. Unless the Borg in ENT don't get a chance to send back a signal.
Well, the Borg have been tooling around in UFP space well before BoBW ... the Federation and Romulan outposts in "The Neutral Zone"?
Also, the conduit techonology may be relatively new to the Borg. They may have only assimilated it recently. The Borg of the 22nd century might still be relying on regular warp engines.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or they might have had riper pickings in the 22nd century. Then they overharvested, ended up with nothing but pathetic second-rate civilizations left in the still-to-be-assimilated garden, and had to stoop to sending a Cube over to Earth to see if they could stomach this green civilization. The first few suspicious bites proved...
Well, what did they prove? That Earth was sour and tough to bite? That trying to bite Earth made Old McQ angry? That the best way to eat this one was piecemeal, to avoid chipping one's teeth? Or to let it rot in its own juices until it softened a bit?
It's an inherent property of the Borg to sit on their asses while an entire galaxy waits, either trembling or blissfully ignorant, for assimilation. If the Borg kept on moving, they'd have overrun everybody already. Apparently, they just have different work ethics...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or Borg of the 22nd century have a diffrent mantality entirely. Guinan seemed to think that the Federation might one day establish relations with the collective (many years un the future and if Q had'nt blown the whole thing)so mabye the collective has changed drastically in the past few hundred years. The closest Borg have to evolution is via assimilation: mabye they assimilated technology (Iconion or Preserver) for the Transwarp conduits and got a unexpected personality upgrade in the process. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Borg have (has?) more than a little difficulty relating to such primitive uniminded creatures as humans, hence Locutus, and the queen, and Seven, and so on. But we've never seen them interact with another hive mind, or some other consciousness on their level. For all we know the Borg may be quite chatty when they're not around their intellectual inferiors.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
The Borg don't seem to be all that bright a lot of the time. . perhaps the Q have taunted them before, and the Collective reacted by assuming some of the species local to that part of space were much more powerful than they realised and went ahead and assimilated them?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The Borg seem to be stuck in an awkard position in which it is irrelevant to assimilate inferior species and quite difficult to assimilate superior species. It seems like they are already past their most glorious days.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:Guinan seemed to think that the Federation might one day establish relations with the collective (many years un the future and if Q had'nt blown the whole thing)so mabye the collective has changed drastically in the past few hundred years.
When did she say that? If anyone besides Picard was keen on destroying them, it was Guinan. Was it when she changed her mind in "I, Borg"?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think it was at the end of Q-Who. Something to the effect of "Someday, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them.. when you're ready. But for now, you're just a *something* to them... and... since they're aware of your existance..." "They will be coming." "You can count on it."
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Since this thread is no longer about seeing another starship, just what exactly are we trying to understand about the Borg? I think I got lost in the transition.
The thing I don't understand...and this contains spoilers, and/or I dont want my ass reamed if I dont think it is but someone else does....
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Why is it if these supposed 24th Century Borg who have been disconnected from the hive mind for 100 years and frozen wake up being still Borg-driven and not "individuals" as we have seen so many many many many times before?
First they imply that Borg, once disconnected, mellow right out and become normal or confused or whatever they were in the first, yet dont need to lose there cybernetic garb ("I, Borg", "Decent"), but then they did need to lose their cybernetic garb to survive ("Unity").
Then we see 7of9 react violently to being disconnected...and at need to lose 90% of her cybernetic garb and in essence do so in a total opposite manner than we saw in Hughs' conversion back into humanity (however I understand that perhaps 7of9 was done in the manner she was for eyecandy and 'character development'). We also see the similar with Icheb and the clan during the last two season as well.
I think also there may have been the instance where 7of9 was in a crashed sphere and those around her began losing their Borg essence in a matter of hours when they were disconnected and yet she kinda didn't, but then again she was the stubborn type, and it might have had to do with the amount of time/her-life she was a Borg ("Survival Instinct").
And I'm not going to even touch upon the rest of Unimatrix Zero and all that, because we are all familiar with that disaster, but what I am getting at is that over time we have seen a gradual change in what it takes to deBorgifiy a Borg back into humanity. Now they are telling us that after 100 years frozen in the ice, or whatever the condition, they just magically reactivate as their own solidarity out-of-time, out-of-space Borg collective, to which hive are they part of? Surely it isnt the 22nd Century Borg hive mind as Picard, Hawk, and Worf foiled the Borg attempt contact their alter-egos.
I think I liked it better when the Borg were still a mystery. Hell even the Romulans are still somewhat of a mystery and they have had a hell of lot more exposure over the last 35years than the Borg in the last 15years.
Curse Voyager, curse it to hell!! Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
To hell? Where do you think it came from?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No shit! Somehow I doubt the Voyager DVD colllections will be a big hit..... Posted by Anti Spark (Member # 949) on :
quote:Somehow I doubt the Voyager DVD colllections will be a big hit.....
Really!?!
I was looking forward to it! Whoa not so many yoyager fans!?!?!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Nobody likes Voyager.... <---if he wasn't red I'd call that look :constipated:
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I may be in the minority, but I'd rather buy Enterprise's first season over Voyager's. I could see buying season five or mabye even six but I'd pass on shelling out $100 for a season thats 70% bad Trek.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
This post is just a figment of your imagination.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
To get back on the not-subject..
..I gather the usual thing for isolated Borg is to start acting on individual impulses. For people like Hugh or Seven, who have known nothing better, those impulses cry for a quick return to the Collective bliss. For others, there may be different impulses.
The second stage involves running into the limitations of Drone physique. If you can de-Drone yourself, and want to, you do, like Picard. If you can't, but want, you start to go mad, or develop survival procedures like partial re-Collectivization as in "Survival Instinct". If you can, but don't want, and a stupid EMH does it for you anyway, you start to go mad, or develop survival procedures like Seven. If you can't, and won't, you just try to re-Collectivize the best you can, like the Borg kids from "Collective". And wait for the larger Collective to return your calls.
If the Borg in "Regeneration" are going to be the ones from "First Contact", then their impulses are unknown: they could be fresh stock from the "FC" battle, and desperate to get free, or veteran Drones hell-bent on getting back to the Collective. They probably won't have the means to de-Drone themselves, not if they are crash victims on a primitive world and lacking the access to a fully equipped (if dead) Cube that the "Unity" folks had. So it would be rather natural for them to form a local Collectivelet and to try and/or seek out the rest of the Collective...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Ooh, hey... like Timo said these drones are from FC, and might include some assimilated Enterprise-E crew members.
They run into the NX-01 out there, and say "what"? Kirk's Enterprise was the first Starfleet ship with that name!
(Of course, since these drones are from the Borg sphere, it's unlikely there will be any Enterprise-E people in that wreckage.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Somehow the need to use this as an excuse to replace Merriweather with Lt. Hawk. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Meriwether Lewis, explorer of the Missouri River and Pacific Northwest?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
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http://www.trektoday.com/news/200303_04.shtml The Klingons are just about to lead a boarding party when three Starfleet vessels (but only of the warp two variety) fly in, weapons blazing. Faced with such superior firepower, the Klingons are forced to withdraw. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
You beat me to the punch, Spike.
I'm not sure if this is such a good idea, returning to Earth like this.
Still, based on these spoilers, it sounds like they might be able to twist the "First Contact" line and the Klingon conflict to fit ENT events after all...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Clearly, after these two major "Earth events", it's not just about Archer and the NX-01 any more. Archer is not on a mere propaganda stunt now - he's out to save Earth's ass for real. Bigger powers will become involved. (Heck, other Starfleet starships will become involved!)
ENT will have to pull its act together, create some sort of a story arc, and then we can all look back to the first two seasons and say "Ooh, foreshadowing!"...
Or then these big issues will be dropped again, and ENT will degenerate into an X-files rehash where the big resolution forever remains beyond the season horizon.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Or else the writers will bring in a kick-ass new warship to accompany the NX-01, and significantly change the series premise in an attempt to make the series more interesting. Sound familiar?
Despite my rather disparaging tone, I would definitely approve of a shift in strategy to include more of a political/military aspect of the sseries arc.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think a political backdrop would fit well, too... as the founding of the Federation gets closer... they're almost going to have to go that direction. At least... it's what they *should* do. We've already got way too much info about the Vulcans and thier political situation to not get into some of that stuff.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Or else the writers will bring in a kick-ass new warship to accompany the NX-01, and significantly change the series premise in an attempt to make the series more interesting. Sound familiar?
You must have missed the fact that DS9 actually was interesting after that...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
DS9 was interesting beforehand.
OTOH, I seem to be one of the few who enjoyed "Duet", "Hands of the Prophets", the "Circle" Trilogy ...
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
The Circle Trilogy is some of the best Star Trek ever made... right up there with ST:2 & 4 [and if you want to have three included in there then the entire Arc of those movies].
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: You must have missed the fact that DS9 actually was interesting after that...
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: DS9 was interesting beforehand.
OTOH, I seem to be one of the few who enjoyed "Duet", "Hands of the Prophets", the "Circle" Trilogy ...
Agreed on both counts above. I loved plenty of the early DS9 episodes, though not all. And I don't think that it was such a huge change of premise as some people believed.
However, my sarcasm was directed at the fact that some people out there snipe at the DS9 writers for allegedly creating the Dominion and later the war story as a gimmick for more ratings.
Honestly, whatever changes B&B make, I hope I like them. And if what we've seen in some of season two so far is any indication combined with the spoilers so far, I think I'm going to approve -- and actually even LIKE the show rather than just watch it because it's reasonably entertaining and a Star Trek show.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: OTOH, I seem to be one of the few who enjoyed "Duet", "Hands of the Prophets", the "Circle" Trilogy ...
Er, no. Almost everyone loved those episodes. It was stuff like "Move Along Home" and "The Passenger" (IT WAS BASHIR! SHOCK!) that people think of when they remember the not-terribly-good seasons 1 and 2. That and the fact that Sisko was a boring twat.
But yes! Let's have more military stuff. Then we can have the explosions and things going boom and Archer saying "Do you feel lucky?"! Boom!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: OTOH, I seem to be one of the few who enjoyed "Duet", "Hands of the Prophets", the "Circle" Trilogy ...
Er, no. Almost everyone loved those episodes. It was stuff like "Move Along Home" and "The Passenger" (IT WAS BASHIR! SHOCK!) that people think of when they remember the not-terribly-good seasons 1 and 2. That and the fact that Sisko was a boring twat.
I always think of the Tosk episode in season one and the "Cloned Obrien episode" in season two. I hardly remember the circle trilogy so I'm looking forward to seeing that on DVD...as I recall it was Trek's first foray into ongoing multipart story arcs. ...and Sisko was'nt a "boring twat": he just rarely got pissed untill the Dominion showed up and started killing thousands of Starfleeters. Sisko is at his best when he's really pissed: watch him dress down Worf a couple of times and you'll see my point. Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
You know, its weird. I remember watching a Trek marathon many years ago where they played the episodes of each series that was voted as fan favourites. There was an episode or two from each series. BoBW was of course the TNG ep, but surprisingly, "Move Along Home" was the DS9 ep. Mind you, I think this was during DS9's run, before the Dominion War, I think.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It would have had to have been at a strange point in time when "Move Along Home" was the ONLY DS9 episode in existence.
And come on, he was dull as hell. He walked around being boring and "My wife was killed and I'm dull and stuff".
It's remarkable how much you can brighten a man up by shaving of his hair and giving him a beard. Oh, and supplying him with a ship capable of levelling entire planets. Go penis-substitute!
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Actually, I think it may have been a marathon for the most fun episodes, because the TOS ep was "The Trouble With Tribbles". But that's not really indicitive of anything.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"It's remarkable how much you can brighten a man up by shaving of his hair and giving him a beard."
Should someone tell Bakula to start using his razor differently?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hey, why not do that to the whole crew?!
quote: DS9 was interesting beforehand.
Actually, I agree, I thought DS9 was really strong the 2nd half of the second season. I know this was, of course, in effort to catch viewers from TNG, which was what got my attention, but nonetheless they managed to do it even before the Defiant. That was, perhaps, the best effort in any season/series to crank out high quality episodes without adding warships, boobs or klingons. This too, all the while TNG was still cranking out some wonderful eps for its 2nd half of season 7 as well....
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:Should someone tell Bakula to start using his razor differently?
Run, Porthos!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Run T'Pol! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Stay Hoshi! Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think that they should allow Jolene to let her hair down, literally. Never been a fan of that wig, or the cluelessly frequent power-buns they give the women in Trek. Saavik was Vulcan, and SHE could wear her hair long AND down!
Mark
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Maybe they'll let her pull a Kes. Letting her hair down, that is. Not ascending to non-corporeal form and then coming back and mucking things up.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Ach! Always with the mucking!! Why all the mucking?!!?
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How many times have we heard of the ship doubling back, visiting populated systems, and so forth? They can hardly be traveling anywhere near a straight forward course.
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