Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Starfleet regulation 191, article 14: ($$$)

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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Starfleet regulation 191, article 14:
"In a combat situation involving more than one ship, command falls to the vessel with tactical superiority."
(from the Voyager episode "Equinox")

This raises some questions:

1. Does this mean that the Defiant is tactically superior to almost (don't know about the Prometheus or Intrepid class) all other Starfleet vessels??

2. And what happens when there are more than one ship of the same 'tactically superior' class??

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"Calm may work for Locutus of the Borg here,
but I'm freaked out, and I intend to stay that way!"

- Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

It wouldn't necessarilt be just the class. Remember, the Equinox was badly damaged and therefore not by any means "tactically superior" to Voyager; if it had been Voyager damaged, Ransom would probably have had command.

I'm under the impression that this regulation is only valid in the case where a ship hadn't previously been selected to head a mission or for its captain to make a tactical decision.

For example, the Defiant was already chosen to lead the fleets when it did. Voyager (in "Equinox") was not...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :

2. It would probably go to the captain with more command experience or whoever has held the rank longer.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I agree w/ Elim. It certainly only applies to combat that hasn't been previously planned out.

As far as what happens if two ships are tactically equal, I don't know. Alphabetical order? :-)

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"Merde!"
-commander of Napoleon's army, upon learning that the Duke of Wellington's forces had received assistance and were requesting his surrender

Posted by Dan (Member # 129) on :

Poker works for me.

Also, what totally defines tactical superority? If it's firepower than most of the bigger ships win by torpedo payload alone. And if it is, then I believe a Defiant has tactical superority over an Intrepid if Worf's 45 quantum torpedo statement holds water.

You know, I use to like these boards when you could actually look at the thread while you type without opening new windows.....

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Daniel Henderson
Senior Babylon 5 Editor
http://www.myrkr.com

[This message has been edited by Dan (edited July 25, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Perhaps it is alphabetical order, but I would think command experience would be the next thing on the list.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Dan (Member # 129) on :

There's even more reason now to get an Akira or an Ambassador now.

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Daniel Henderson
Senior Babylon 5 Editor
http://www.myrkr.com

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

You know, there has to be more to this regulation. Otherwise, you could have a situation wherein Red Squad onboard their Defiant gets to take control of the fleet, just because Picard is on an Oberth or something.

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"We kid around a lot about people who are cyclopses, but seriously; if you're a mythic figure you've got challenges that no one should have to deal with."
--
John Flansburgh

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

Hey Sol,

If your idea ever came true, I think they would transport the two crews to the other ship.

There is no way Picard (or anyone) would lead a battle from an Oberth.

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Your right, there's no way Picard would command a fleet while onboard an Oberth! Maybe onboard a Galaxy or Intrepid Class, but why since he is in command of the Enterprise-E!

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"Its origin and purpose, still a total mystery."

-Dedication Plaque quote from the U.S.S. Odyssey

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Which could go a long way toward explaining why, when the E-E turned up at the battle of Sector 001, no-one quibbled when Picard took command. No "but you shouldn't even be here - you're disobeying orders!" but instead "heck, we've been shot to sh*t and his vessel kicks righteous ass, sounds like a plan!" 8)

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Lee's got a good point with the First Contact thing... Is it possible one Brannon Braga was attempting to correct something in Trek's past? There's a horriffic thought!

Perhaps there's a "unless command experience is significantly greater" clause?

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Actually, leading a battle from an Oberth is a pretty good idea. The ship could stay a distance from the fighting, dedicated exclusively to commanding the fleet.

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"If you feel that there is some intelligent reason why the immortality and happiness of 600 people should outweigh doubled life-spans and freedom from disease for billions, feel free to let me know. Surely, if they were one-tenth as moral and caring as they claimed to be, they would have shared their incredible discovery." - Mike Wong

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

But, Frank, you'd be safer in a runabout!

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, not really.

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

What? They obviously have better shields.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Er, I really doubt that.

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Bah! "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River"!

Anyway, back to Regulation 191, Article 14...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

Frank, it's a science vessel for Pete's sake! Have you seen Star Trek III (i meant 3)

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited July 28, 1999).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Yes, and there's no Oberth in that movie.

Keep in mind that a command ship generally wouldn't want to actually enter the battle.

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Seriously though, I love Earth. It's where I keep all my stuff." - Simon Sizer

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Frank, if that's the case, why would the most tactically superior vessel be in command in a chaotic situation?

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I'm talking about an organised fleet, not a "chaotic situation."

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Seriously though, I love Earth. It's where I keep all my stuff." - Simon Sizer

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Bryce: Hey! You edited the message! You said STII before.

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Seriously though, I love Earth. It's where I keep all my stuff." - Simon Sizer

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

That Edit Message function is a sneaky one.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

You still wouldn't lead a colonization caravan from an Oberth. The Mirandas are more advanced than them and they were killed during the Dominion War.

On Every Trek game they are the most defenseless!

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It's all about the Pentiums, Baby!

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited July 29, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

I agree with Bryce. These are utterly defenseless science ships we're talking about (evidence: Star Trek III, plus they're never used in major battles). Why couldn't the "bad guys" not just sneak up behind the lines and destroy your organised battle by blowing up your Oberth with a couple torpedoes? It's too risky. You're risking losing some of your best people, for no reason. You might as well not even go with light-years of the battle to coordinate it.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I hate to say this, but there were Oberths present at 2 battles against the Borg, at least 1 at Wolf 359 and at least 2 at Sector 001 (First Contact).

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"Calm may work for Locutus of the Borg here,
but I'm freaked out, and I intend to stay that way!"

- Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Oh, yes. I never noticed the First COntact ones, but I distinctly remember the Oberth in "Emissary" not even getting a chance to open fire, let alone be productive, before a single hit destroyed it. Why they sent them (besides as capital punishment) is beyond me.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Oberths have probably been upgraded over the years, of course.

The Oberth in "Emissary" was not destroyed, just damaged.

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Seriously though, I love Earth. It's where I keep all my stuff." - Simon Sizer

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited July 29, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Crippled is more like it. And it was destroyed (just not in that one shot), unless it was the lone survivor of the battle, as stated in "The Drumhead". That would be laughable.

Enough about Oberths! Regulation 191, Article 14...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

It didn't seemed crippled at the time.

Actually, I hereby declare that the USS Bonestell was the lone survivor of Wolf 359, despite what the encyclopedia might say. So there. :P

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http://frankg.dgne.com/
"Seriously though, I love Earth. It's where I keep all my stuff." - Simon Sizer

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Alright then, how about this: Why does a fleetadmiral be on an Excelsior/Nebula class, when there is a Galaxy class present?

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"Calm may work for Locutus of the Borg here,
but I'm freaked out, and I intend to stay that way!"

- Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Altair: What are you referring to? The "Descent" Borg Incursion prep fleet with Alynna Nechayev in command? She was on an Excelsior...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Most admirals use Excelsiors, and I included the Nebula because of Wolf 359.

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"Calm may work for Locutus of the Borg here,
but I'm freaked out, and I intend to stay that way!"

- Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

*mutters something about the bad rap Oberths get being excessive*

The Grissom didn't have its fricking shields up! Lay off the little guys!

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"You're not quite evil enough. You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil, just one calorie, not evil enough."
-The good Doctor and his son, Scot