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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I was watching "Second Sight" DS9 last night and I noticed something on the Nebula Class Prometheus. Besides the obvious issues of "where's the Captain" and "Is this a Starfleet ship or not?", there is something odd about the doorways and corridors. This ship has the first known examples of the submarine style doors that are currently seen aboard the Defiant. The doorways are basically just big ovals in the walls and have a rim along the floor making it impossible for anything with wheels on it to pass through the doorway. The doors themselves also appear to be basically the same as the ones that would later appear on the Defiant.

Does anyone have an opinion on what, at the time, was a design change in starship design. I suppose it's possible that the corridors we saw in that ep were in the swappable mission pod above the saucer. That might explain why the internal configuration was different from the Galaxy type interiors. Although I would think that on a science ship, that pod would be a sensor pod or something else for reasearch.

Comments?

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Didn't we also see similar doors or hatches on the Erewon Class ship - that had crash landed on that planet in "Paradise"?

Was that before or after Second Sight?

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

There were no doors on that ship cause the psycho chick had them all taken out but the hatches may have been of that type, I can't remember. But this was not a Starfleet ship.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Was "Second Sight" in the third season? This would explain that no suited starship sets were available. Anyway, I don't understand why the Galaxy sets were not used for the Phoenix and the Sutherland during TNG.

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"Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress")

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

"Second Sight" was 2nd Season, so they could, technically have shot the dinner sequence in the Galaxy observation lounge! (Which would have been sweet) Alas, I expect the set was being used by TNG too much of the time, so they refitted the runabout aft section set from Timescape and used that.

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"I cannot live out that life.
That man is bereft of passion... and imagination!
That is not who I am!"

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Seriously? Did they really use the runabout set? I'll have to go back and see if I can pick that up.

I suppose you could argue that the submarine doors are an older more militaristic design that were used on the Nebulas before the Galaxies were made.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

The USS Honshu had the same design, with Defiant-style hallfways and doorways (even the same carpeting)

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

I'm sure the door signs on the Honshu said USS Defiant on them.

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Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

AFAIK, the Nebula in that episode where Sisko and Dukat are trapped together had Defiant-type corridors. Not sure about the brig though.

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"Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

So maybe Nebbies had this corridor design all along? We've never really seen the inside of one except for the bridges and the corridors mentioned here already.

I can think of another corridor type that I've always wondered about: The ship that brought Sisko and Jake to the station in "Emissary". When they left the holodeck and looked out the window at the station for the first time, the corridors didn't seem very familiar (it was purposefully supposed to NOT look like the Enterprise) or very Starfleet.

And Starbuck, where did you come up with that hilarious signature?

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

I don't understand this desire to disguise corridors like that. A corridor is a corridor. If there's any logic, it would be that most corridors are like Voyager's, simple functional with panels concealing technostuff and cupboards. As you ascend the scale to ships with civilians like nebulas and galaxies the corridors become wider, more lushly decorated and lit. At the top is the Sovereign, which should make you feel (as it does

) that you are aboard a royal yacht. Mmmm burgundy capets, wood trim, golden doorsigns....

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"I cannot live out that life.
That man is bereft of passion... and imagination!
That is not who I am!"

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

1.I'm sure even with out the Doors that we saw those hatch type doors, and even though it wasn't Starfleet it was a Federation ship...

2.I've often wondered what the ship that the Sisko's were on... it had a rectangular window, right next to a holodeck... the holodeck squares were smaller than the E-D's the colour scheme was Grey not Brown... It wasn't the E-D since O'Brien and the Enterprise had already gotten there... it wasn't the Oberth that Jadzia and Julian arrived on, that arrived later... the ship that the Sisko's arrived on was never shown. I asked this very same question to Rick S. and Mike O. on r.a.s.t but - they didn't really work out what ship it was supposed to be.

3.We never did see the aft compartment of the Danube class again, except we did see Jake looking out of the large windows in "The Visitor" - was this a quick and dirty mock-up - or was the set still around?

4. Did anyone notice the Sao Paulo/Defiant A's corridors and carpets in Sloane's head?

Andrew

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited January 11, 2000).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

AndrewR: I don't ever remember Jake being on a runabout in "The Visitor". Oh, unless it was when the Fed aboandoned the station to the Klingons. Was that it?

Montgomery: If anything, the Sovereign is less luxurious than the Galaxy or Nebula. The corridors seem to be just as wide, but there are textured metal decks at least in some areas and there is no evidense that there are families aboard. The Sovy class doesn't even have as much internal volume as the Galaxy or Nebula. If you want hotel style luxury, go for the Galaxy. Couches and lounges in the corridors, a conference lounge every five meters...

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The Sovereign probably has very nice areas, but only the places that would be used in their diplomatic functions (like that meeting room in Insurrection). The parts of the ship that are only ever going to be seen by the crew have the metal floors, etc.

BTW, I know it doesn't mean anything, but the ship that took Sisko and son to DS9 always struck me as being an Ambassador. I don't know why; it's just the class I always think of when I think of that ship.

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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Could the ship that Sisko and Jake were on was a Sydney Class transport ship?

------------------
Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Yes - I meant when they abandoned the Station... (re: The Visitor and Danube aft windows)

I think that the rectangular window is a strong candidate for it to be a Sydney Class vessel - AND maybe Sydney class ships are full of holodecks? They did stop off at Blue Horizon on their way to DS9 - so maybe it was the same ship that travelled Earth->Blue Horizon, Blue Horizon->Bajor/DS9.

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Shipboard holodecks are supposedly new in 2364, so I wouldn't expect to see them refitted aboard old tramps like Sydneys very soon. OTOH, "Emissary" isn't "very soon"... And holodeck tech was probably first developed as a civilian technology before accepted by Starfleet.`A Sydney might actually have had a primitive pre-"11001001" holodeck before the Enterprise!

I'd still suggest that the ship Sisko used was not a Sydney, but a newer transport type. Was it civilian or Starfleet?

Pro Civilian, con Starfleet: Holodecks in an extremely prominent place near the boarding gangway, said gangway has a huge and vulnerable window next to it, the fact that the ship made a non-Starfleet-sounding stop at Blue Horizon, some civilian-looking passengers aboard

Con Civilian, pro Starfleet: Enters a potential war zone, goes to a star system with which UFP has no regular trade, Sisko personally notified of arrival by the crew through Starfleet communicators, passengers all look like Earth humans who wouldn't have a business here unless coming with Starfleet blessing

Pro Neither: Alien ships still made regular runs to Bajor during occupation; perhaps Starfleet used one to transport Sisko?

Con Neither: If this was an alien liner that made regular trips to Bajor, why did it have that Fed-model holodeck?

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited January 12, 2000).]

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

Well, the ship that Sisko and Jake were on would then be the same class as the USS Raven then. It's somewhat a new ship class or something.

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Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by Black Knight (Member # 134) on :

Somehow, I doubt that a ship as small as the Raven has holodecks.

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Navigator-"Heading, Sir?"
Kirk-"Out there...somewhere...out thatta-way."--Star Trek: TMP

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Okay, how about an Intrepid Class or Yeager Class?

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Show me the meaning of being lonely
Is this the feeling, I need to walk in
Tell me why I can't be there where you are
There's something missing in my heart

-Backstreet Boys

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Both of which are much larger then the Raven, though.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

But the windows kind of look like it came from an Intrepid saucer or engineering hull. Where are the holodecks on the Intrepid Class?

------------------
Show me the meaning of being lonely
Is this the feeling, I need to walk in
Tell me why I can't be there where you are
There's something missing in my heart

-Backstreet Boys

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Hey the Sydney is a relatively big ship - and what is to say that Sydney class ships can't be upgraded!?! thats crazy to say the ships built way back when have to keep the same tech as the day they were built - I reckon that Holodecks would be a major component of Transport ships.

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It's near-impossible to say what the ship would look like from the outside, just by looking inside. Old ships could have refitted holodecks. The corridors of a movie era or even TOS era liner could certainly be changed to look like those walked by Sisko. The window need not be a real window - in the very same episode, we see Sisko's cabin aboard the Saratoga, and it has a window that cannot be found on the outside of the ship.

But the ship cannot be a fighting vessel serving in Starfleet (no Intrepid or Yeager). If she were, and she were slower than the E-D, then she would be the closest Starfleet ship to DS9 when the Cardassians strike and not the E-D (although she might not be the first capable of returning). If she were faster than the E-D (like an Intrepid might be), she would be the first to arrive to help the station (although she might not be the nearest when the Cardassians strike). She ought to be an unarmed or weakly armed ship, leaving the E-D the only credible piece of Starfleet hardware in the region.

Damn you, Aban... you always ask very good questions that are impossible to aswer conclusively! Oh, well, at least we get 58-reply threads instead of abortive ones...

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited January 13, 2000).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I'll take that as a compliment Timo, and Damn you too cause you always come up some fairly well thought out answers =)

I guess I would have to agree with the fact that this is probably a civilian ship given facts like "they stopped at Blue Horizon on the way" and "the Ent-d was still the closest ship". It's probably something we haven't seen yet since the set designers were told to make it look obviously different from the Ent D.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :

I think this is already really off topic, but I didn't want to start a thread just for this one question.

What about these strange windows Timo mentioned (in Sisko's quarters abort the Saratoga)? I turned my Miranda model inside out and upside down, but I haven't got any clue as to where this window is supposed to be.

Any ideas, or should we suppose that this is just another one of those dreadful 'minor glitches' in Star Trek continuity and attention to detail?

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oh behave!!

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, be careful about what you believe with AMT or Monogram models. They are usually not correct enough to base much of anything on. However, I don't believe these windows show up on the Reliant model either (which was modified to become the Saratoga). I suppose we could assume that the Saratoga differs slightly from the Reliant with regard to some of it's windows. We never really saw the Saratoga all that well. Whatever the case, the windows in his quarters certainly didn't look all that sturdy!

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

*would like to see someone turn a ship model inside-out* ;-)

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"The Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich. Samuel Morse invented the Morse Code. Plato invented the plate."
-Holly, Red Dwarf: "Parallel Universe"

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Timo, come again? I was saying that the ship that Sisko, arrived on was definately not The Enterprise-D - it was already there when Sisko got there... and it wasn't the Oberth Class ship that Julian and Jadzia arrived on.

You then said that Sydney class ships wouldn't have Holodecks!?! Thats crazy - since all they have to do is install one!

We definately can't find out from that scene what the outside looked like - but we know that what ever ship it is it has to have a rectangular window and room for a holodeck/holosuite. Plus the ship in question has a grey colour scheme. And IF it was the same ship that Sisko and Jake took all the way from Earth - it stopped at Blue Horizon.

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Maybe its not a window but an exposed bulkhead that has been sealed using forcefields.

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

Looks like you guys might get the info you need on the Nebula Soon , the next ST Mag will have Nebula Class Blueprints and bridge isometric
http://www.stmagazine.com

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"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2/

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Andrew: What I meant was that Sydney is a piece of crap from the TOS movie era, and thus an unlikely recipient of new technology - the ship *could* be a Sydney, but a more modern vessel is far more likely.

As for the window next to the door... It would stand to reason that a passenger ship would require a window there, to give the disembarking passengers a view of where they are going. A utilitarian fighting vessel would need no such comforts. OTOH, since a window is so important, it could actually be a viewscreen, if you follow my drift. That is, the designers would take pains to put a "window" in this place even if it was structurally unwise or impossible, by substituting a viewscreen.

Timo SAloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

But Timo, we see the Sydney class or something akin to it being used again and again in DS9 as a Treansport ship... I'm sure that the class would be upgraded - like the Enterprise-D etc. Every 100,000 light years or so... plus demand for passanger comfort would require the addition of Holodecks - especially on long Voyagers... also - the window wasn't near the space dock - it was just in the corridor outside the holodeck that Jake happened to be fishing in...

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"All the lonely people, where do they all come from" - Eleanor Rigby, The Beatles.

Posted by Marko Latin on :

Let's just assume that this is a minior glitch that the ship designers threw in there just for detail...:-)

I keep wondering how do all you guys keep noticing all these details...don't you watch the show,the action? I get the feeling you're all just keeping an eye on corridors, rooms, doors, uniforms, windows...etc...

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

[This message has been edited by Marko Latin (edited January 20, 2000).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

For me it stems from two factors:

A) I'm an artist by trade so I notice things like set design, costume design, room dressing, etc.

B) I watch the tapes alot while I work and I've seen the eps so many times, I can't help noticing stuff like that. And it actually adds to my enjoyment of the whole thing. Making these things 'real' adds to the illusion.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Well "Emissary" was my first Trek - it's what got me hooked - oh I had seen a few episodes of TNG, and a few of the movies - I absolutely ADORED The Undiscovered Country when I saw it - although I had no real Idea of Star Trek...

Well I like to bung on a tape every now and then... and the more times you see an episode the more your eyes wanders to other parts of the screen...

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000

Posted by Marko Latin on :

I'd like to be able to tape all the eps but i don't have the time neither a ton of video tapes...i only tape the eps with important events and big battles like: DS9:Sacrifice of angles,what you leave behind (THE BEST DS9 EPISODE EVER!!!),tears of the prophets
VOY: The Hunt (maybe...anyway the one with the hirogens and species 8733457-whatever ),Dark Frontier...

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Dream on...in the end...dreams are everything...

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

I just watched First Contact again and noticed that Picard had those Starfleetized Cardassian PADDS in his ready room.

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Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Perhaps they had recently stopped off at DS9 or something, and he got some info, but, since the isolinear rods wouldn't be useful in any SF tech on the E, he took the whole PADDs.

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"Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spick-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of bullshitting the audience I think takes its toll."
-Ronald D. Moore

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

O.K., back to the ship that brought Jake and Bennie to the station in Emissary...:

I watched "Emissary" again on tape last night and noticed two things that prove (at least to me) that the ship that brought them was a Starfleet ship, not a civilian ship.

Evidence the First: When they get to DS9, Sisko is in the holodeck with Jake. The Captain of the ship calls Siskoo to inform him. Sisko uses his COM BADGE to respond. Sisko's com badge is tied into the ships com system. I doubt this would be true if they were on a civilian ship.

Evidence the Second: The holodeck doors clearly have the same style of doorsigns used on other starfleet ships (you know, the rounded rectangles). Unfortunatley, by the time they close, our heroes are too far away to have any hope of reading what they say.

So, that's it case closed !! (Unless you guys wanna argue some more) :-)

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited February 03, 2000).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, I would be surprised if SF commbadges weren't designed to interact w/ all Federation comm systems. Or at least the more common ones, anyway...

As for the door signage, that doesn't really prove anything, either. However... Is "Emissary" ever supposed to come out on DVD (or even has it already?)? If so, it might be possible to read what the door says...

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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

The signage aboard the ship that carried the Siskos is similar to the signage aboard the starship Tsiolkovsky. And the window is a window-there is a reflection of the Siskos.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

If it was an oberth class - there wouldn't be any rectanglular windows with an unobstructed view - you would see either a nacelle or the rear of the ship.

I think (of ships we have seen) that the Sydney class is the only ship that fits this criteria - an unobstructed RECTANGULAR window view...

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000

Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

At least we know one thing about the ship. It did not stay long at ds9.

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"We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy

members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Actually, why does Sisko's transport need to be a Sydney. Though we did see many Sydney's over the course of DS9 being used as transports, we only saw the interior of Sisko's transport. And it left by the time Sisko came aboard and had O'Brien show him around. For all we know, it could have been a new and/or unseen ship class. Maybe a Bradbury?

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"To start, press any key. Where's the 'any' key?
-Homer Jay Simpson

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes, but Andrew said that of the ships we've seen, the Syd is the only one that seems to match. And it could still be an unseen one, also.

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Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

I saw somewhere online that the USS Bradbury looks like the prototype Voyager model. I doubt that, but you never know...for all we know that was the ship that Sisko and Jake were on.

------------------
Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

That the Bradbury is the Voyager prototype has to be complete wild speculation. On my following of Voyager's production in Magazines (no net at the time) There were ideas bandied around that the Voyager was an oldership from the time of the Cardassian wars... I assume this is what ideas went into the design of the Voyager prototype - the large Excelsioresque nacelles etc - it has more of an older 'bits and pieces' look to it and I guess they told Sternbach to go back to the drawing board and make it a post E-D ship more modern... the Bradbury is NX-7 something - and I'm certain that the prototype voyager is Ambassador/post excelsior era.

Andrew

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"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000