Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Constellation - Wolf in sheep's-clothing?

This is topic Constellation - Wolf in sheep's-clothing? in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/618.html

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

A couple of days ago I downloaded a 3d-viewer, capable of viewing almost any file-format used in 3d-rendering and design.
I (of course) started seeking out ships and renderings, and after a while I stumbled upon the Constellation-class and decided to give it a shot despite my opinion of it, and really re-woke my feelings about it.

One thing that really took me by surprise was the armament. I don't know the exact specifications on the constellation's weapons-grid (so much non-canon garbage floating around), but on this particular 3d-model I found TWO separate torpedo-launcher's, placed in the "joints" of the nacelle-pairs.

Now, I know Picard didn't speek highly of said class in his ship-discussion with Capt. Montgomery Scott (he just missed it), and the general specification of it seems to be "crappy scout/science-ship".
I still feel though, that if one of it's kind could have survived to 2375 and be refitted with newer engines, shields, software, weapons-upgrades etc. etc. it could still be one hell of a ship!

Thoughts??? (Both personal and professional)

------------------
An arboretum? On the Defiant?
If you were any other man I would kill you where you stand!

(Worf "The Last Straw")

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet recommissioned the remaining Constellation Classes during the Dominion War. If the Miranda Classes could survive over 100 years, the Constellation Classes could be returned to service. But it sounds like the ship you downloaded had a few unauthourized upgrades...

------------------
Show me the meaning of being lonely
Is this the feeling, I need to walk in
Tell me why I can't be there where you are
There's something missing in my heart

-Backstreet Boys

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I got the mesh from Sci-Fi Art. In the discovery zone, under the Akira-mesh, is a lightwave version of the constellation.
I also have a picture from old Wolfpak-359 where you can see a launcher between the lower nacelle-pair.

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-I don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

I agree the Constellation does look very good , i have the Wolfpak pic and those torpedo Tubes are in a nice position , if those are also copied on top naccle pylon this thing can be a real strong puppy . I found another pic of the Constellation by Glenn Crouch i havent seen it around the net so i thought you guys might enjoy it .

If you look closely the Torpedo Tubes are also there , I'm gona look much deeper at the screen caps and see if i can make it out on the model.

Oh hey Nimrod whats the name of that Viewer Program ?, i've been looking for somthing like that for a while.

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited February 04, 2000).]

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

I always thought the two launchers were on the bottom joints of the lower nacelle pair and not the top joints.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

*wonders why a ship should have to be armed to the teeth before it's even worth considering as a good ship* Personally, I think the Constellation is one of the better designs, whether it has torpedo launchers at every junction or not.

------------------
Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Hmmm thats a nice CGI image - so many so called 'good 3d artists' out there always make their ships look fake by having it really bright - since that is the difference I feel between the models and the CGI - cgi can't do the 'light' thing very well - it looks too fake...

especially in the windows and the nacelles - just somethings I wish CGI artists would address... anyway - nice pic.

------------------
"...it might be easier to study
ancient societies from distant orbit than it might be to sit next to the
Guardian of Forever with a tricorder." - Baloo, January 2000

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

The program is called 3D-Exploration and it can be found at http://www.xdsoft.com/explorer/

It's a really great browser that can show any file format, even Quake3-models!

My advice is, go to www.swma.net (Star Wars Modelling Alliance) they have some good sh*t there, man, they could fix you up, man...
And for Star Trek: http://trekmeshes.starfleet.ch/

Does anyone have any other links that are good??

Maybe now this thread belongs in "Design, Artwork and Creativity"???

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-I don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

The ship does look damn good!! I do agree with Michael that the Constellation Classes could have been brought back into service, the ones that are still in one piece.

Imagine the USS Constellation with photon/quantum torpedoes, Type-9 phasers, some abblative armor, upgraded computer and power systems!

------------------
Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ec, ec, exactly!!! Don't forget a new warp-core too! It would've been nice to see it fly abreast with the Defiant in SoA, firing torpedo-pair's from both launchers and swaying from side-to-side to evade flak!
Even if the script demanded Defiant getting through alone, it would've gone out in a blaze of glory!!! Plus, there's more parts in a Constellation, making for a very detailed death-scene. (What am I saying?)

About the torp-launchers, I found the pictures of the studio-model, with favourable angles of it! I have the pics here, can some samaritan soul spare 128 Kb of diskspace?

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-I don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Sure.

------------------
Ross: "Inter arma, enim silent leges."
Bashir: "'In the time of war the law falls silent.' Cicero. Have we become a 24th-century Rome, driven by the fact that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
-Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

I think I can confirm that there are four torp launchers , and i think i see a phaser strip on the top side of the Saucer , this could indicate that this class might have been upgraded before seeing as phaser strips were intoduced around the time of the Ambassador.

I agree this class could have kicked some dommie booty , those four torp launchers would have been a sight to behold.

Sure ,Send them over Nimrod , Im doing a write up on the class for my website anyway , may i use them ?

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited February 06, 2000).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Absolutely, just happy to be of service. I'll include the four studio-pics and a nice big side-view.

I was thinking of also sending some images of the 3d-model I found on Sci-Fi Art, but seeing as I don't have the complete list of copyright-references to go I think it's best if you go there and get the model yourself! Isn't that the order of things, Fabrux? Or does it suffice with just saying "from sci-fi art"?

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Yeah, I think "From Scifi-Art" will suffice..

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Great! Thanx for the links.

So, for those who didn't know, these pictures confirm that the constellation-class has a double set of torpedo-launchers:
http://fabrux.virtualave.net/misc/exp.jpg http://fabrux.virtualave.net/misc/exp2.jpg

These are pictures of the actual model used in the series.

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ok, here's a theory. Remember in "The Search For Spock" when Kirk shot the BoP with two torps? I'm looking at the tape now, and Scotty fires two photon's with an interval of 53/100's of a sec (according to my stop-watch) and that was from the same tube.
Yeah I know, get a life, but bear with me.

I found a nice homepage talking about ol' connie-class and it said it had a total inventory of 80 torpedos, 40 for the dorsal launcher, 40 for the ventral.
So the OLD launcher from the Constitution-class could fire torpedos in .5-sec intervals. What would the fire-rate be from BOTH torpedo-tubes, and both launchers on the constellation-class? 8 torp's/second or just past FUBR! That would mean that IF it could fire-link the launchers, it could empty the banks in ten seconds. And if the tubes would fire in a cycle, not simultaneously, it would fire at a cyclic rate of 480 rpm, like a machine-gun!!!

This fits perfectly into the equation if the other information is correct. I'm talking about the famous battle of Maxia, where the USS stargazer was ambushed by a ferengi cruiser. After listening to the subspace-transmission in the episode, one could gather that the Fed's waited until the last moment to defend themselves. So when Picard pulled his manouver he only needed a second to unload 8 torps on the enemy.

Now, why they chose to forever place the connie in the "crappy but nostalgic"-group and not the "aged but lethal"-group is beyond me.
Although I haven't seen "Peak Performance", where the Hathaway engaged in battle-drills with the Enterprise-D.
I think that ep shows a lot of constellation, so I will try to buy it.

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Well, I guess the Constellation has launchers up there too. I only wish the Constitution had the same number with 2 forward and 2 aft.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

And I seen no phaser strip(s) on the upper saucer, but I think I see extra phaser banks lining the upper saucer near the edge. And the "gun" on the lower saucer on the big port buldge could be an early phaser cannon.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

[This message has been edited by PopMaze (edited February 06, 2000).]

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

Ok I just found some proof of what i believe to be phaser strips.

I edited the image above to show them. What do you think ? any theories?

As for the Sci-fi art mesh , On the site they say that the Public Domain Meshes are for our use , they only say to credit them for making them so i think "From Sci-fi art shold be enough.

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited February 06, 2000).]

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Those aren't phaser strips. If you look at the pics posted by Nimrod, you'll see they look nothing like phasers. I don't know what that strip is, but it's certainly not a phaser strip.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

Yeah I guess your right , cant blame a guy for dreaming can you? :-)

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited February 06, 2000).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Maybe it's frames for mounting ski-boxes and such!

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

We do know the Excelsior didn't have phaser-strips at first, but then the Lakota fired from a strip against the Defiant, so they should be upgradable.

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Since when did the Lakota have a phaser strip? It only had phaser banks - plenty of them.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The Lakota fired beams from lots of places, including those with emitter "beads" and those with no weaponlike surface features whatsoever, neither "bead turrets" nor strips.

The shots (IIRC):

-L snaps up towards D, opens up with (lower?) saucer emitters. Interior pictures as more shots hit D.
-D rolls over the saucer, firing with pulse phasers and a dorsal turret, L responds with saucertop main phasers
-D continues towards the camera, L fires a beam from the starboard side of the impulse housing (no real emitter here in the model, but one can't tell that from the picture)
-D fires aft torpedo and withdraws, and I think L fires ventral secondary hull phasers as a parting shot
-D flies along the length of L from bow to stern, raking with pulse phasers. L fires from between impulse crystals (no real emitter, but difficult to see) and the bulge between the nacelle pylons (no real emitter, and this is easier to see).

So while a typical E-B style ship has 20 emitters in
5+5 twin mounts on the saucer, a quad mount on ventral secondary hull, and possibly two twin mounts straddling the shuttlebay (according to the "Generations" MSD if not the model), the Lakota apparently adds at least four emitters (two on the impulse deck sides, one atop the impulse housing, one between nacelles). Only the 2 forward torp tubes are apparent, but stern tubes undoubtedly exist as well (presumably in those tailpipe-like protrusions just under the fantail)

The Constellations in turn have 3+3 twin saucer turrets and five additional single turrets on dorsal saucer surface (although we never see any of them fire). I'm still not sure whether there are 2 or 4 torp tubes - the upper ones seem highly suspect, since the lower ones are so obviously taken directly from the Constitution model but the upper ones must be customized if they exist. And the modelmakers didn't even bother to paint the obvious lower ones correctly.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Dhunter: what is the address for the Wolfpack site where you got that first Const. Pic? I'd like to check it out.

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Thanks, Timo! You gave me a reason to dust of my old tapes! I haven't seen that fight in a long time!

It jumps up two knotches in my Top-10.

You're too right, the Lakota fires only from phaser-knobs (my preferred word), but I didn't notice the Defiant using it's dorsal phaser-strip before, I thought it only did in "Shattered Mirror". And it fired a photon too, highly unusual!

Elaborate, why does the upper constellation-launcher need to be customized?

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

Aban Rune : This one ?

This one isn't Wolfpaks it was made by Glenn Crouch , his addy is
http://www.geocities.com/~crouchy/3dart.html

He has lots of cool stuff .
------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited February 07, 2000).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Thanks Dhunter! That is some pretty neat stuff!

------------------
"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by Obese Penguin (Member # 271) on :

No Prob Aban , I'm here to serve :-)

Heres a shot of those Phaser "knobs" in action , I like that word nice job Nimrod :-)

The Constellation most likely has a few of these as well , i think a can see a few scattered around the bottom of the Saucer , as for the top I think I see there are two near the front of the Saucer.

------------------
"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?"
~Homer "The Simpsons"

Jupiter Station , Starfleet Research & Development

[This message has been edited by Dhunter (edited February 07, 2000).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Hey, look at how big the Defiant is.

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"We're going to take a five minute break...we'll be back in twenty minutes." - John Linnell

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

It's surprising there are a lot of tidbits on the these ships we didn't know before.

As for the Lakota, it's probably another variant on the Excelsior class. It was being refitted before it's attack on the Defiant.

So let's see, we have 4 variants on the Excelsior.
1) ST3, ST4 appearance. Was it in ST5?
2) ST6 appearance and most likely the variant we see in TNG (twin impulse deflection crystals, different bridge, and shuttlebay section)
3) E-B
4) Lakota, E-B design with extra phaser banks and possibly a different paint scheme. And I think the impulse deflection crystals are a different color. Weren't they blue on the E-B?

Also I think those two protrusions on the neck may be phaser cannons and apparantly the E-B has escape pods according to the MSD, though no pods or hatches can be seen on the saucer of the model.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

[This message has been edited by PopMaze (edited February 08, 2000).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Yes, Frank. We know.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes, Frank, that shot shows the Defiant to be, at most, about 110m. Which doesn't agree w/ anyone's theories. What's your point? :-)

------------------
Lisa: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Bart: "Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'..."
-The Simpsons

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

well, they sure got the shield-fx right this time!

Nice picture, D.
'Twas nice to hear that they had been succesful in upgrading the L. with quantum-torpedos, but they should've showed it in the battle-ep's. All we saw of the excelsiors was low-impulse cannon-fodder. Though I still have'nt seen WYLB, I hope I get surprised.

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Actually, the shields are off centered. It barely wraps around the Defiant's starboard nacelle, while there's plenty room around port. But that's just nitpicking.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Nimrod: On second thought, the upper launcher does appear to be identical to the lower, and to the original Constitution launcher. I'm all for believing in four forward torp tubes now!

And who aid Starfleet doesn't believe in mechanized ground combat? The Constellation comes complete with two gigantic combat droids on the ventral surface!

PopMaze: The TNG Excelsiors actually were of the single-crystal variety, mostly (the stock footage having been filmed using the ST3 version of the ship). DS9 ships in turn are exclusively of the twin-crystal version (either filmed on the model built for "Flashback" or rendered as CGI).

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited February 08, 2000).]

Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :

Combat droids?
*follows link*
*FOHCL!!*

[Obi Wan-speak]
These aren't the droids you're looking for...
[/Obi Wan-speak]

------------------
"Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Timo, yes I understand the model used for TNG was the single crystal type, but in terms of the Trek universe, they were probably the twin crystal type because the events of TNG happen after ST6, in which the Excelsior appears as a twin crystal version. I doubt Starfleet would build another single crystal Excelsior when the twin type had better success.

Though because we never see the upper saucer of the Excelsiors in TNG, we can never be sure of which type it is.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Grapeape on :

Okay, so to recap about the Connie - we have, as far as armamaent is concerned: 6 twin phaser banks, and 5 single banks around the dorsal saucer top, plus definately four forward tubes, and what MIGHT be 3 "megaphaser" cannons of some type on the ventral saucer side. Does anyone have any ideas about aft-facing weapons? Maybe 4 more tubes and 2-to-4 single phaser banks on the aft end (my theory anyway). Also, are there and more singles on the ventral saucer not clearly visible in the shots? I'm guessing all of you know about as much as I do, but any opinions would be welcomed. I'm planning on superdetailing the 1/650 Constellation Vac-Form model kit with all this new information. Thanks, Grapeape

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Based on Mike Trice's pictures, most of them already linked here, I believe there are no ventral single emitters on the ship. The cannonlike protrusion in the ventral hull could also be a "deflector spire" of the type seen in many fanfic ships of the TOS movie era, usually attached to the saucer bottom vertex.

As for aft weaponry, there are some pictures of the stern in "Peak Performance" but all the screencaps I have seen are of too poor a quality to make observations. They seem to indicate a smooth, flat wall, however.

Traditionally, Starfleet ships have had extremely weak rear armament overall. Perhaps their engine configurations somehow necessitate this? It is unlikely there would be aft torpedo tubes (unless they are behind protective hatches, which doesn't seem to be typical of post-TOS vessels). There could be some phaser turrets there, though. I'm still wondering if the Mirandas have two single aft turrets below the impulse nozzles, as implied by some photos...

And PopMaze: I'd be happy to accept two parallel versions of the Excelsiors, equal in impulse performance despite different number of impulse crystals. There might be some tradeoffs between one big crystal and two small ones, but those only make life so much more interesting...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

More on Constellation rear armament: Apparently, there is none. The mounting point of the model is located between the impulse engines and nacelle pylons, and the socket for the mounting pole takes up all of the aft hull where weapons might have been. See here.

OTOH, there may be additional phaser emitters in the horizontal parts of the nacelles, if the small knobs in this picture can be interpreted as such - the paint scheme isn't obvious from the pictures, so I don't know if the typical yellow-brown was applied here.

Apparently, a featureless flat wall covers the hole in "Peak Performance". Like so many other Starfleet ships, the Connie simply has to make a tight turn or a rapid acceleration if the enemy gets into her six-o'clock.

Timo Saloniemi

[This message has been edited by Timo (edited February 09, 2000).]

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Didn't the Centaur have those phaser banks too??

Just checking...

------------------
"Reality is a condition that occurs because of a lack of alcohol."
- Albert Einstein

(-=\V/=-)

Posted by Grapeape on :

As far as the Miranda-class is concerned, yes they DO definately have two single aft-firing emmiters, located right under the impulse deck. Given their yellow-brown color they are quite visible in a picture of the original studio model I have. This is why, given the fact that the Connie seems to be a much more heavily armed type of ship from the same time period, I would support aft-firing single phaser banks in some location(s).

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

One might say that different ships fight differently, and some do not need aft weaponry because of... What? Their agility? The Connie certainly doesn't seem to be capable of out-turning a Miranda. Their speed? A Connie might be intended to outrun any weapons fired at it from rear, while a Miranda might not be allowed to flee if it was intended to perform escort duty or something. Their shields, perhaps? A Miranda might not be able to withstand fire long enough to turn, while a Connie might. Or perhaps Mirandas are tasked with warp-speed minelaying (or rear-guarding a convoy), requiring aft tubes, while Connies are not.

I guess one could just say it's a trade-off - in Connies, the engine assemblies block the whole aft hull so that no weapons can be internally fitted, and at that time, surface-mounted phaser strips were not yet available. That excuse doesn't hold for the lack of aft phasers in Sovereigns, but they have aft torps to compensate...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Devilman on :

Just to let people who are looking for some pretty ok Constellation Class pics, there's always a few at DEVILSWORLD in the Star Trek Gallery.

These ones were made with Tachy's Model.

-Devilman

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

The Sov's gonna have problems if they run out of torpedos in their aft magazines. She needs aft phasers.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, well we're not talking about sovereign's here.

How about a "Temporary Dampening-Nullifier" that let's the Constellation float free in space so it can turn a 180 with thrusters while still travelling forward, like in Space: above and Beyond, and Babylon 5!
Then it could fire at the pursuers! I mean, we saw the Borg pull it off in "Scorpion" and that was in high warp, I'm talking about medium impulse, which seems to be the favoured fighting-speed in Trek.

------------------
-Have some coffee, it's good!
-Ah don't want none o'your god-damn coffee!!

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited February 10, 2000).]