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Posted by Grapeape on :
 
Just curious, the Apollo-class USS Gage NCC-11672 was supposed to have been destroyed at Wolf 359. Wouldn't it make a lot of sense if there actually WAS a wrecked ship of that type present SOMEWHERE in BoBW2 or the pilot of DS9??? Going by it's registry, maybe the burning Consititution-class saucer seen in BoBW2 was marked as the Gage? According to Bernd's site, Mike Okuda is pretty sure it was the saucer from ST3, but maybe they decided that since it would be seen close up on screen, they would put assign a name and registry to it? Also, maybe the wrecked Constitution secondary hull seen in the same episode is part of the ship? Any opinions or ideas about this?

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[This message has been edited by Grapeape (edited July 09, 2000).]
 

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
 
Sure, there should be something left of the ship.

Let me ask you a question: Did you find any on screen evidents that there were about 40 ships at Wolf359? I don't think so.

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- Buffy
 

Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :
 
Just a thought: the Constitution secondary hull might be part of a real Constitution. It makes at least a bit sense: they could have taken old, decommissioned ships from surplus depots, and put them in the battle as automated flying bombs.

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Posted by Grapeape on :
 
Sure, Constitutions could have been turned into unmanned flying bombs - being totally obsolete, and given that there might still be some sitting in "mothballs", it is definately plausible. But what I'm saying about the Apollo, since the registry starts with "11" and we've seen Mirandas with both four digit registries and later ones with five digit registries beginning with "20" and "21", then the Apollo class could easily be a contemporary of these ships. Therefore, a constitution primary hull seems appropriate, and maybe also a constitution secondary hull, possibly slightly modernized in some way. We'be also seen Constellation-class ships with four digit registries beginning with "9" and some old four-digit registry Excelsiors, so maybe the Apollo is really based on the Consitiution with some Constellation or Excelsior-like improvements, given the time frame of their design/construction?
 
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
Well, meanwhile, we saw what were apparently Apollos in "Unification" anyway...

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
Are you speaking from the T'Pau?

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
Right. The Encyclopedia says that's an Apollo.

(BTW, "von" hat viele englische �bersetzungen. )

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
The name "U.S.S. Gage" was mentioned only in a previous version of the script, although Okuda listed it in the Encyclopedia for some reason. The ship is mentioned nowhere in the episode, and there was probably no model built to represent it or the Apollo class in either Emissary or BobW.

BTW, I saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel years ago about the making of Emissary. They actually blew up about 3 or 4 different Saratoga models before they got just the right effect. That "floating saucer" looked like one of the models the effects guys blew up.

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
quote:
Right. The Encyclopedia says that's an Apollo.

Yes, and the 3rd edition has corrected this error. :-)

BTW: Hauptsache man wei� ungef�hr, was gemeint ist.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
I don't see any correction about the T'Pau...

(Sag das meinem deutschen Lehrer. )

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
You're right, but I still believe that this is an error. Maybe someone thought that the T'Pau has to be an Apollo-class-vessel, because its registration number is so similar to (? ) the numbers of the Apollo-class-ships.

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Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :
 
Back to the appearance of the Apollo:

Grapeape, you suggest that it might employ Constitution and Excelsior components.
Those Const hulls would certainly not make up an entirely new class. If you assemble a ship from both Constitution primary and secondary hulls, you actually have a variant, or some kind of refit, that certainly would not deserve a seperate class name (shut up about Soyuz, OK? ), so it won't be Apollo. Not to mention the obvious problems that arise with kitbashes. Bernd's site has an excellent article about the disadvantages of kitbashing, BTW, and I agree with him.

I therefore speculate that both hulls are parts from different ships, and are not necessarily the Gage.

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Posted by Grapeape on :
 
But following that logic, wouldn't that make the Nebula class a variant? I mean, it does use some new components as compared to the Galaxy-class (most notably the various pods it can be fitted with)but the basic engines, saucer, and secondary hull are extremely similar, because it is a contemporary of that time period. But it is undoubtedly a different class - there is enough different to warrant it as so, it's not a simple modification. Just as the Apollo could be a different class that uses the Consititution primary and secondary hulls, but in a different configuration, with, who knows, maybe different, more advanced engines or other unique features...
 
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Hey, that thing about blown-up Saratoga models sounds very good. This must be a blown-up scale model kit, since nobody would blow up a photographic model for background debris. But why would anybody blow up even a scale model kit for background debris, when the scene showed an early stage of the battle with ships still intact and fighting? Circumstances must have conspired to produce wreckage for use even though the modelmakers didn't specifically call for it.

Of course, this could still be the remains of the destroyed Excelsior, which should still be floating around from a story point of view. But the saucer definitely looks like a Miranda/Constitution/Constellation one, and only the first two have scale model kits. And why would the VFX folks have used a Constitution if they didn't need random debris?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :
 
Starfleet seems to favour kitbashes of existing ship classes. I'm voting for a new kitbash.

Alpha Centauri: Cool signatures! If you look into to some of the posts made a few months ago you may find one in a similar fashion I made about the Prometheus.

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Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :
 
Altair: Yes, I know, that was my inspiration, actually. I even made up an entire catalog of "Captain John's Used Starships", featuring a warp-capable Ares-IV, a life-sized 1:1 Phoenix, DY-vessels, etc. Maybe I'll link to it someday.

Grapeape: OK, you're right, I forgot about the Nebbie. But everyone can see that it is an entirely seperate design, despite being a Galaxy kitbash. I once toyed with Constitution parts, and I now have an incredible number of Constitution kitbashes made with my graphics program. Problem is that they all still look too Constitution-ish, no matter how you arrange them, scale them, flip them, mirror them, etc. I don't have that same feeling about the Nebbie, however I acknowledge the Galaxy-origin (despite having lower regos).


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Advertisement in the United Federation NewsPADD, SD 53675:

"Now for sale at your local dealer: Antares class vessels, as good as new! They can shapeshift! Everybody in the galaxy has one! Now for only $800!"

[This message has been edited by Alpha Centauri (edited July 10, 2000).]
 

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
Timo: Actually, the Saratogas the effects guys blew up weren't scale models: They were all about five feet long. My guess is somebody wanted some background debris, and instead of actually fabricationg custom-made junk, they just used one of the Saratogas.

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Homer: "And you're like the father I never visit."

 

Posted by spyone on :
 
The Nebula's secondary hull is only superficially similar to that of the galaxy class. on closer inspection, it is very different, being taller and not tapering as much, as well as having a different shape and therefore a different shape of deflector dish.

i think the T'Pau might have been referred to as an Apollo Class in "Unification".

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
...Which of course raises the question "Does anybody have the script available?" (Or, "Is Boris Skrbic reading this?")...

What we'd need to know is

1.Is the class of the T'Pau really mentioned?
2.Is any of the three Vulcan ships built by the Romulans identified as the T'Pau?
3.Is the class of the three Vulcan ships mentioned?
4.With what dialogue exactly are the Vulcan ships welcomed by the crew (does somebody say "Hey, Vulcan ships, everyone!" or "I'm reading Vulcan warp signatures at 123 mark 45"?)
5.Does the scrip offer some other insight that wasn't in the actual episode?

Timo Saloniemi

 

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
There were 3 Vulcan ships mentioned by Spock in the broadcast, NONE of which were the T'Pau. I find it very unlikely that the T'Pau would be able to go ANYwhere without a deflector.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, there's a picture in some book showing the original model, and it's got a huge IDIC symbol on the side. So the ships were definitely Vulcan.

I don't think the T'Pau was stated to be Apollo-class. However, there was a display showing info on the ship. Perhaps that had the class on it.

The T'Pau probably couldn't go anywhere w/ no deflector, but it doesn't need its own deflector. The Romulans probably replaced it because it was damaged, or something.

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Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :
 
An Okudagram with ship info, that's interesting. Screencap, anybody?

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Advertisement in the United Federation NewsPADD, SD 53675:

"Now for sale at your local dealer: Antares class vessels, as good as new! They can shapeshift! Everybody in the galaxy has one! Now for only $800!"


 

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :
 
I remember the Okudagram from the episode "Unification, Part 1". The information does not give class information either for the SS T'Pau or the USS Tripoli. SS T'Pau is identified as a ship of the Vulcan Merchant Marines and was declassified on SD 41344.2.

The saucer in the episode "Emissary" can't be of that of the USS Melbourne NCC-62043. This ship was below the Borg ship after being disabled and was intact, aside from the 50% of the primary hull which was destroyed.

A magazine of Starlog gives the battle information as follows (this reflects an earlier script)-USS Gage destroyed, USS Kyushu destroyed, USS Melbourne destroyed, USS Saratoga destroyed. The first two ships are not seen in the final product and the inference from the episode is that the battle is beginning.

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Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
 
My reasons why I used the Vulcan designed ship as the Apollo Class

I have more reasons why i use the vulcan ship as the apollo. but the notion of someone contimplating a kitbash for the apollo using the wrekage from a 2 second seen appauls me.

Do not make me get the side view of the Rigel class again.

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refering to fry in
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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
What was that Rick Sternbach design for a Vulcan ship, that was never seen?? The line schematic I think is in the Continuing Mission... anyone want to scan it?? IT looks sort of like a Sabre class hull but with vulcanesque nacelles.

Andrew

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Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :
 
Yeah! I wanna see it too!

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Advertisement in the United Federation NewsPADD, SD 53675:

"Now for sale at your local dealer: Antares class vessels, as good as new! They can shapeshift! Everybody in the galaxy has one! Now for only $800!"


 

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
 
I think this is what you all mean with the vulcan predesigns: http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31412332/scifi/pre2.htm
not the biggest, but you get the idea...

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Hey thanks P!

If you look at Sternbach's grey and white CGI pics of DS9 with some other ships floating about for size comparisons... you can see this Vulcan ship...

It looks like the Sabre if it was going the other way...

Andrew

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"chocolate cherries allamanda" - Datura, Tori Amos

 

Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :
 
I don't know if anyone has noticed this but within the Star Trek Companion, there's an interesting tidbit about the vulcan ships

"The Vulcan ships were originals, built by Greg Jein from an original design by Sternback, with a Reliant-like feel featuring long, pointed engine pods and a bridge over hull look. Urged to go for a more alien non-Starfelet look, Sternbach said he based the design on a central core surrounded by a wraparound circular generator"

Well they apparently wanted the Vulcan ships to be "non-starfleet", which support the idea that the Apollo class for T'pau was a typo.

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Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :
 
I love the left most vulcan ship, and I would accept that as a ship that was use by both SF and vulcan.

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