------------------
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

 

------------------
"And as we all know, a mesolytic quantumvector resonator is commonly
used to polarize isogravitic plasma-flux manifolds."

Starfleet Academy's Redshirt Guide to the Starfleet, 62nd edition,
2376.
 

------------------
"Incest! A game the whole family can play!"
-Jonah Rapp
 

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

------------------
How stupid do you have to be to play Russian roulette with a semi-automatic?

Unfortunately, they re-used names for the tiny print, (editor Margaret Clark is captain of five vessels and a starbase!) so you don't have a list of officers. Oh, well.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

------------------
Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"

 

Note that the chart doesn't explicitly state that these ships or bases were destroyed; it only lists personnel either MIA, KIA, or WIA.

------------------
Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"

 

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

As for the other ships,
a. USS Tripoli NCC-19386
This heavy cruiser whose class is not canonically known is used in 2368 to ferry salvaged components to a holding facility. She loads the components once a week, IIRC. The ship is not decommissioned; she is still in active duty, though in a very limited capacity. (An editorial: I know her class is listed as Hokule'a; however, I take the encyclopedia with a grain of salt. If I don't know that the information comes directly from the episode or film, I regard the information as being arbitrary, misleading, and prone to errors. In the need to profit from the franchise, the TPTB have not instituted a stringent standard of consistency in product. This has resulted in products that as a fan of the Star Trek series I am ashamed to known of and I feel degraded by the producers that I am viewed as a purveyor of cash. For this reason, I will no longer purchase their magazines, novels, reference guides, and calenders. I do apologize for this editorial; however, I feel that at times I am the only fan or anything else for that matter that cares about the quality of the merchandaise being offered. From my perspective, I feel that other fans will accept the merchandise they are handed without serious questioning. This is very disappointing and helps to explain why the TPTB believe they can continue to offer such "garbage". If you, as an executive producer of Star Trek or Paramount executive, know that the fans will accept just about anything handed out at exorbitant prices, do you-the fan-think that the quality of the franchise and associated merchandise of that entity will improve in the near future? The end. I personnally like to think that the USS Tripoli could be an Ambassador Class starship.)

b. USS Sarajevo NCC-38529
This ship is said to be reported missing in 2372. She, like the USS Tian Nan Men NCC-21382, evaded the Dominion patrols and managed to return to Federation space. The USS Sarajevo entered the Alpha Quadrant before the Dominion War.

c. USS Victory NCC-9754
This confirms that ships of the Constellation Class are in operation during the Dominion War.

If there are thousands of starships in operation, why is the Okudagram only listing known ships? Couldn't he have been inventive in the names of ships or use Dominion War era ships named in episodes?

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited September 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited September 07, 2000).]
 

Some answers to Targetemployee's good questions:

1) Oberth class may not be a very capable warship, but that certainly doesn't mean the Dominion cannot destroy an Oberth during the war. One of these essentially unarmed ships could have been making a supply run while escorted by a warship, or then traveling through space presumed safe. Dominion forces would then have made a surprise attack on the convoy or the lone ship, resulting in her loss.

Just in comparison, more than half the vessels employed by the USN are defenceless against *any* threat, down to and including an attack by a dozen Kalashnikov-wielding pirates in a Zodiac. Yet most of these "noncombatants" are still expected to operate in their designated support task in wartime. They just count on protection from other vessels, or then on good luck.

2) I trust the second Cochrane IS of a different class. So far, ship names have not been reused for identical vessels - although "Saratoga" was reused on a near-identical vessel. In any case, this venerable name is probably never left idle when an existing Cochrane gets stricken.

3) Another possibility is that an older warship with the 59000 rego and a launch date in the 2340s-50s got renamed when the glorious, historic and attractive name "Cochrane" became free through the destruction or retiring of the Oberth class supply ship.

a) As we know, the Tripoli was the ship that found Data. While she was specified as a cruiser in the episode, she was NOT specified as a HEAVY cruiser. I like to think of her as a light cruiser, a ship of lesser value, justifying why we hear little of the class elsewhere.

And we did see externally intact warships at Qualor, including two roll-bar'ed Mirandas. Reactivating these may not have been all that difficult. The Tripoli may have been just as intact, despite her temporary scrap barge role, and reactivation could have been within the limits of practicability.

b) I do like the idea that the Sarajevo (and the Proxima and the Maryland), listed as missing in Gamma, actually had more adventures than simply a Dominion encounter on the lines of "Wham, bang, good bye ma'am". A daring escape and return to Alpha is what I've come to expect of Starfleet's heroic starship crews...

c) I'll accept active-service Constellations without hesitation, since this is attrition war. The Victory might have been retired before the war, along with all the other Constellations, only to be reactivated to fill in for fallen comrades. I'm still of the opinion that the Constellation in "The Abandoned" was of some other class, though. During that episode, matters were not very desperate yet, and I trust Starfleet would have assigned a modern and fast starship to move the priority cargo of a live Jem'Hadar specimen.

The reappearance of known starship names may indicate that these were part of a pre-existing organization assigned to the area we used to observe in TNG and early DS9. Perhaps the vessels of, say, the 9th Fleet were permanently assigned exploration and other peacetime operations in the same area where they would see combat service in case a war broke out? Perhaps the E-D was part of this same organization?

Timo Saloniemi
 

quote:

---

I don't account for the reputed sighting of Oberth Class starships in the movie First Contact. The configuration of these ships is not readily visible.

---

I would say, there are 2 Oberths in First Contact: http://fitz8472.hypermart.net/fcoberth/oberth.htm

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

I must admit that the ship in the lower two rows of pictures looks very interesting. Not Oberthy, necessarily, but peculiar nevertheless. There's that dark, round thing below the main hull and the nacelles, with a light center - a nav deflector? Are we just seeing a Steamrunner nearly head on?

Timo Saloniemi
 

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 07, 2000).]
 

Incidentally, when speaking of ship lists... Your site, Fitz, has this Okudagram from Captain's Chair which lists various TNG vessels and their assignments. Would you happen to know if it comes from an episode? It would be a very nice addition to canon if it did.

Timo Saloniemi
 

Who can scan this okudagram from the compendium?

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 07, 2000).]
 

All of the ships' NCC numbers match their listings in the Encyclopedia III. Therefore, the Cochrane NCC 59318 IS another Oberth; in fact according to the 'pedia, it was the ship that brought Bashir to DS9 in Emissary. Now, with Targetemployee's personal opinions aside, I'm simply using the 'pedia as a reference tool for getting the info because the info is'nt anywhere else. I personally don't think Oberths are any good in a battle either, but the again the chart doesn't say that the ship was actually in battle. It only lists the casualties. Like Timo inferred, the ship could just have been cruising along on it's merry way somewhere and got ambushed.

As for the Tripoli, I think there's some confusion. I recalled from Unification that the ship had been decommissioned and was serving as a "holding ship" (implying that the ship was in a stationary position and parts were just beamed into it for storage). That's why it was removed/stolen/destroyed by the black raider ship: so the raider could come and take the same position that the Tripoli once was when the parts transfer took place, which is exactly what happened in the episode. To make a long story short, the ship WAS decommissioned and was at least missing from the depot. Whether Starfleet eventually found the ship and recommissioned it for the war (hence it's appearance on the chart) is total conjecture.

------------------
Bart: "Hey, Dad, I'll trade you this delicious doorstop for that crummy old danish."
Homer: "Done and done...D'oh!"

 

I suggest the ship was simply hidden elsewhere within
the junkyard, its locator beacons turned off, so
that the smuggling ship could take its place. Perhaps
the smugglers even towed the Tripoli back between smuggling runs, and Riker happened to be on the spot conveniently when another smuggling run had been catered for.

How did the E-D crew search for the Tripoli, exactly? I think it is possible they just hunted for its locator beacons, and did not consider the possibility that it was merely ten thousand kilometers away, its transmitters altered to identify it as the decommissioned minesweeper USS Utterly Insignificant,
while the beacons of the minesweeper were in turn turned off...

Timo Saloniemi
 

members.aol.com/nemesisst/mia.jpg

See for yourself!

------------------
This is how i prefer the borg... in pieces!!! -- Janeway in Dark Frontier

Seventhworld, the new SciFi-Project
http://www.seventhworld.de
Soon to be featured StarTrek Nemesis

Visit Rogue Fleet! The new StarTrek Internet RPG.
RogueFleet
Applications are still running!

The display says Leslie Wong is the captain of the Akagi. In the German translation of this episode she's captain of the Cairo. What does the English version say?

And the Exeter has 2 captains. Very slipshod.

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 08, 2000).]
 

------------------
This is how i prefer the borg... in pieces!!! -- Janeway in Dark Frontier

Seventhworld, the new SciFi-Project
http://www.seventhworld.de
Soon to be featured StarTrek Nemesis

Visit Rogue Fleet! The new StarTrek Internet RPG.
RogueFleet
Applications are still running!

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Another thing. Notice the Akagi has every crew member listed as MIA. Is it possible the Akagi is actually MIA herself, as in the ship never reported back? Also, almost the entire crew of Zapata is killed. Could she have been destroyed, with the MIA's being crew members still lost in escape pods?

------------------
Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

[This message has been edited by The359 (edited September 08, 2000).]
 

------------------
[Bart's looking for his dog.]
Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church.
Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!
 

This chart raises a question. Which has greater canonicity within an episode, the dialogue or the visual display?

Another question. Are the script writers and the art department working together or separate? And is the art department having separate departments which work together or work separate? This is the second instance in recent Trek where the visual information doesn't match with the dialogue or other visual information. The first is the issue of the USS Prometheus.

Some more question.
In "Emissary", the Oberth Class starship has registry of NCC-19002. Many will identify this ship as USS Yosemite.
Now, in Star Trek, a physical or CGI model is used for three purposes: 1.) to be the ship mentioned in dialogue or seen with visible name and registry and not contradicted by dialogue or script to be another ship, i.e. U.S.S. Voyager; 2.) to be a ship with known registry and name or characteristics representing another ship, i.e. the USS Defiant II is represented by the USS Defiant I (rf. "What You Leave Behind"); or 3.) to be a ship used as filler for a scene.
The scene in "Emissary" where the Oberth Class starship is seen docking with DS9 has a clearly visible registry. Logically, I could argue that this is the USS Yosemite NCC-19002, meeting the criteria for the first purpose. However, the encyclopedia suggested that the ship is the USS Cochrane NCC-59318. This would meet the criteria for the second purpose.
Let's resolve this please.
For those who have the script for "Emissary" handy, is the Oberth Class starship referred to by name and what is that name?

Another thought-an argument against the Oberth Class starship being used in combat. Ever since TOS, the fans have seen a development in technology by the Starfleet to enhance the defensive and offensive capabilities of their starships. These developments have been for the most part reserved to the frontier ships, i.e. Constitution, Galaxy, and Defiant Classes. Advances have included ablative armor, q. torpodoes, and stronger shields. This would indicate a strong desire by Starfleet to preserve lives and minimize casualities. Why would a space organization that values life use lightly shielded and largely unarmed science ships in battle? The only possible answer I could think of is that the Oberth Class starships would be used as freighters, like the USS Biko. How much cargo could the Oberth Class starships carry and would the amount justify use in a combat situation? Another possible answer for the Oberths. The crews of these science ships were transferred to ships used in combat and kept at those posts until war's end. By that time, the crews were transferred back to their posts aboard the Oberths or given assignments aboard newer science ships.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

Also Starbase 129 being mentioned in Parallels would make sense because that episode took place near the Cardassians/Bajorans and the Remmler array.

It would also make Forcas III where the Bat'leth competition was close by...

That would aslo fit with having a Klingon colony close- by in to the Cardassians/DS9 - in the "Alexander from the future episode" they went to a nearby Klingon colony.

Andrew
Andrew

------------------
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

 

IMHO, it was never designed to be "seen"... not close-up anyway, because of the repeated names! A bit like the gags on the TNG panels and the DS9 promenade directory I think!!!

------------------
"Replicate some marmalade, Commander - helm control is toast!"

Now, we know canonically that some transports or supply ships have crews of just a couple of dozen, so theoretically at least USS Cochrane (assuming she is the same Oberth we saw in "Emissary") might have been lost with all hands. But the other ships aren't of known transport types (the Wyoming is a possible transport of Istanbul class, IIRC, but the Constantinople of that class had thousands of people aboard in "The Schizoid Man" so the crew was probably larger than just six).

The Zapata is another borderline case. We don't know what type of ship she is, so a crew of no more than 21 is a possibility. But the other ships are supposedly of known types, and these types are relatively large combat vessels, implying hundreds of crew.

So apparently none of these other ships was actually destroyed, since only a very small fraction of their crew was declared KIA or MIA, and almost all had WIAs to indicate survivors.

Or could there have been a bias to the chart? Perhaps the ships were lost with nearly all hands, but DS9 only received the names relevant to the people serving aboard that station. But who would make the judgement on a thing like that?

Timo Saloniemi
 

Andrew

------------------
"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

 

------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

 

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Perhaps it would be appropriate to list EVERYTHING there is in the DS9 episode guide in the way of Okudagrams, maps, ship lists, interesting crew factoids, menus for Replimat, cargo manifests, springball tournament results and the like. Just a catalogue of what one can expect to find there. The MIA/KIA list was a pleasant surprise.

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Does anyone else have a scanner and the Companion????

Just for the info:
Most of the sketches are never used equipments(the cloaking device from " once more unto..."), stage designs (the AR-5** planet), the Ds9 upgrades (from "way of the warrior") and a lot of other fun stuff (posters from the 70s in Past Tense and Covers of the SciFi-Mags from "far beyond the stars").

BTW, the book is worth buying!!!!!

(Now, Pocket Books where can i get my bribery money?)

------------------
This is how i prefer the borg... in pieces!!! -- Janeway in Dark Frontier

Seventhworld, the new SciFi-Project
http://www.seventhworld.de
Soon to be featured StarTrek Nemesis

Visit Rogue Fleet! The new StarTrek Internet RPG.
RogueFleet
Applications are still running!

So, the list from the episode "In the Pale Moonlight, has cruisers, freighters, scouts, and transports being attacked in the war and losing casualities.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

------------------
"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
 

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

------------------
"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
 

------------------
Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

 

How would the difference between KIA and MIA be determined in space combat anyhow? A body that has gone missing in the vacuum of space must be presumed dead, unless there is reason to suspect a boarding action, transporter capture, or Borg assimilation (although the latter should warrant a new AIA or "Assimilated In Action" designation!). But as long as there are enemy ships in the general area, a transporter capture is always a possibility. So perhaps everybody is MIA unless a body (or a vital chunk of it) is found.

Timo Saloniemi
 

------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cluck cluck jibber jibber, my old man's a mushroom etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------
Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?"
Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"

(discussion with fellow classmate, 9/5/00)

 

The Exeter appeared to be a command or courier ship, with a Admiral Richard B. Barnett onboard who was missing in action.

Also, a MIA is left hanging on the end of the Tripoli's readout.

And strangely enough they seem to have twins on other ships. (I know this is because of simply copying names in production and the screen was never intended to be seen, but what are Treknical solutions for these things?)

I know we usually see only commissioned officers in the episodes, but there are way too many high-rankers listed missing, against perhaps half a dozen enlisteds (or people without a rank mentioned) and a relatively low count of ensign vs. lieutenant. It's cute to have everybody be an admiral in the dedication plaques, but to make everybody a lieutenant or higher in a KIA roster is just silly.

Perhaps we could again use the criterium often beneficial in "semi-canon" debates - only include the data that can be gleaned from the actual episode, assuming super-powerful futuristic viewing devices but the original videotape/film. The names and registries of the starships could be readable, and one could tell the KIAs from the MIAs and WIAs by the color, but the names and ranks of the personnel would be mostly invisible, because of camera angles and resolution of original material, and because of people standing in front of most of them in close-ups.

Timo Saloniemi