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"I tried once to be a history teacher, but I saw no future in it."

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
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"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

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members.aol.com/mfwan/index.htm

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
 

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
 

There were no real closeups of the model in the episode, so as of now I can't say which model was used.

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Star Trek: Legacy

1) The smooth TOS ship first seen in "Elaan of Troyius" (or "The Enterprise Incident", depending on airing order), never really named one way or the other (but Shatner and Nimoy apparently joked something about it being a D-7).

2) The more detailed Jein take on a TOS-era, explicitly called a D-7.

3) The smooth cartoon version with a protruding deflector and other differences, apparently called the D-5 (since Kor in DS9 said his old ship Klothos was of D-5 class, and he flew a ship named Klothos in TAS).

4) The upgraded version seen in TMP and other TOS movies, as well as in TNG and non-time-travel-DS9, apparently named K't'inga (but which episode actually uses this name?).

Of course, one could say that 1) and 2) are the same thing, and blame the low resolution of 2260s visual recorders for the smoothness of 1).

One could also assign D-designations to those ships that do not have them yet. If the TAS ship was a D-5 and the "Tribble-ations" ship was a D-7, then perhaps the TOS smooth ship was a D-6? And perhaps the K't'inga is a D-8, D-9, D-10, D-11..? It should probably precede D-12, though, since that designation was given in "Generations" to a largish BoP which would seem to have been introduced only after we saw K't'ingas for the first time.

Timo Saloniemi
 

And as for Trials - didn't they use CGI there as well? Or did they really build models of the Enterprise, the Klingon ship and K7 space station?

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RIMMER [as Ace]: "Stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas."

 

It's difficult to say what the Voyager standard practices are, but I believe they would use models whenever those happened to already exist (as they do for the Klingon ship and for the Voyager herself). Only all-new designs would be done in pure CGI. It's probably still cheaper and/or faster to film things that way, unless the ships are supposed to perform complex space ballet or explode into detailed pieces.

Timo Saloniemi
 

You have to remember that DS9 didn't use a lot of CGI before the war-arc in season 6. The only CGI models were a runabout, a Jem'Hadar attack ship, and the Defiant, and even these were used rarely compared to their physical equivalents. The fleet shot at the end of "A Call to Arms" was still pretty much all-model. The reason? I don't know, except that DS9 was originally envisioned as a model-show, which probably remained a tradition until the more complicated fleet shots in seasons 6 and 7 demanded a change in strategy, from all-model to all-CGI. It is also possible that the producers still didn't feel that CGI was up to it at that time.

Boris
 

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001
 

If the ship and its cloak were as "antiquated" as was claimed, how come Voyager's standard sensors didn't detect it immediately?

[Even more off-topic] So much for a tactical advantage in a cloak, because Voyagers' shields were up (?!).
And why, oh why did a couple of ancient torpedoes reduce those shields of a supposedly state-of-the-art ship by at least 50 percent? [/Even more off-topic]

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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"

 

And the ship had a cloaking device - the first D-7 or K'tinga we saw with a cloaking device (in Star Trek time) was Kang's ship in "Flashback" on Voyager.

Chronologically in RL, the first time we saw those ships with cloak was in DS9's "Way of the Warrior," IIRC.

I suppose high-ranking ships could have had cloaks, explaining Kang's ship. Even so, the guys in "Prophecy" left before the Khitomer Accords (presumably before ST6). That means they had a cloak pretty early on, like Kang did.

I have not checked, but the ship on Voyager looked to be the CGI K'tinga from DS9 episodes, not the smooth model Jein built for "T&T." I'd have to watch again, though.

At any rate, the episode's D-7 may have undergone many refits along her century of a journey - that may explain weapons & surface-detailing inconsistencies.

Oh, and what was with the streaking particles at impulse?? ...and the overloading Voyager deflector glow??? *L*

~ Jason :-)

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STAR TREK: BEYOND - http://stbeyond.homestead.com

Get ready for a dual-ship series dealing with multiple timelines.... *grins*

[This message has been edited by Capt_Spencer (edited February 09, 2001).]
 

Its easy to notice because if you see the CGI screen caps around the web - the CGI ones always have seem to have comeout less clear than the models... see the "A Time to Stand" screen caps.

Tsk.

Andrew

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
 

In any case, there is a clear difference between the TOS ship and the K't'inga in that the former doesn't have impulse engines at all. Did Jein's "T&T" ship have impulse engines? Should we assume that the TOS ships had those, too?

There are plenty of possibilities to wiggle out of this mess.

1) Tuvok may have at first misidentified the ship - it looks like a TOS ship from dead ahead, after all. Perhaps only a closer look at the stern parts revealed it to be of some other class, but this information was not so critical that Tuvok would have divulged it when the camera was looking at him.

2) Tuvok may have correctly identified the ship, and D-7 is the correct designation for the "T&T" ship but incorrect for the TOS ships (which could be D-6 or something). The "T&T" ship may come in torpedo-firing versions even if the one actually seen in that DS9 episode had a deflector dish.

3) Tuvok may have correctly identified the ship as belonging to a big family of ships, which is called D-7 and includes the TOS ships, the "T&T" ship and the K't'inga, but excludes the TAS ships (which would be D-5).

4) Tuvok may have correctly identified the ship as belonging to a big family that is called D-7 and includes ALL the battlecruiser variants seen. The TAS ship is another D-7 variant, while the D-5 class IKC Klothos spoken of by Kor was an even older ship which Kor later used as the namesake of his TAS D-7.

Timo Saloniemi

 

I've always figured that the D-## numbers were production numbers, not the actual class name.

D-7 - Kolode or Akif or whatever (no 'real' name was ever canonically established).

D-8 - the K't'inga Class. This has to be a different class because of its different length and different configuration of the forward pod and the engineering section.

D-9 - the first B'rel Class BOP.

D-10 - The K'vort Class BOP.

D-11 - A new, "refit" version of the B'rel using updated technology but the same hull design. This helps explain why the same basic BOP has been in use for 90+ years.

D-12 - another B'rel update, the one seen in Generations.

D-13 - the Vor'cha Class cruiser.

D-14 - the latest model of the B'rel. This is the one that saw the most action in the Dominion War.

D-15 - the Negh'Var assault cruisers.

~~~~~

I haven't seen "Prophecy" yet, but it seems to me that they'd use the D-7 cruiser for this. Aren't these Klingons supposed to be an outcast sect or something? One would expect that they wouldn't get their hands on a state-of-the-art model, but rather an older ship that was about to be decommissioned.

As for the cloaking device, we know that the Klingons had them as early as 2285 (Star Trek III) and probably a lot earlier, like 2270. Most people seem to agree that the Klingons exchanged D-7 cruisers to the Romulans in exchange for cloaking devices. (IMO, they did a straight trade of ships, which is how the Klingons started using ships that were called "Bird-of-Prey.")

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You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

 

Actually, the first Klingon cruiser with an active cloaking device was the sleeper ship, T'Ong. As seen in TNG, Year 2, "The Emissary". The ship seen was the same one from TMP. They actully used that shot from the opening scene of TMP having matted out the other two cruiser's. The T'Ong was launched in 2290, same year as Kang's confrontation with Sulu (VOY,"Flashback").

Also, I happen to own an original copy of TMP Blueprints, signed by Gene Roddenberry and Andrew Probert. They were released on December 7, 1979 and published by Pocket Books, copyright 1980. The general plans for the Klingon Warship interpret as follows:

Model: Drell-4
Type: Battle cruiser
Class: Star Cruiser

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I expect this will be glossed over, as I posted the information on boards in years past and it was virtually ignored. Purrr....
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I would love to comment on what is seen in VOY, "Prophecy". But I won't catch it until Sunday evening.
 

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

 

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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."

- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001
 

Well then. Go ahead and have at it. I know we can get serious. But its all in fun really anyway.

I saw VOY, "Prophecy", finally. Not sure what I make of the Klingon ship. The level of window detail and the blue-green inside the warp nacelles, implies it is the model of Krono's One from ST:VI. Krono's One having been the orginal TMP ship model that got detailed further.
But when they showed it from the top, bearing down on Voyager, the details around the bridge command pod seemed lacking (I think someone else pointed that out). It suggests CGI may actually be the case there. Perhaps close detail was not really necessary.

What I think disappointed me most was the Klingon torpedos. I wish they appeared more like those fired by Kang's cruiser's in VOY, "Flashback". The same ones seen in TMP.

The more I re-read this thread, the more I can't seem to recall at what point "K'T'Inga" became popular-in general. We had already established D-7 for the TOS battlecruiser via "Trials & Tribble-ations". The class designation actually made it into the Encyclopedia as a _conjectural_ entry. SO I guess it was never actually spoken in the movies or TNG.

[This message has been edited by Psi'a Meese (edited February 12, 2001).]
 

I've been thinking about this subject quite a bit lately and I tend to agree with Timo.

TOS ship - (D6?)
TAS ship - D5
T+T ship - D7
TMP ship - K't'inga (D8?)

I think the name K't'inga originated in the TMP novelisation.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Andrew

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
 

I'd be happiest if every Klingon design had a double identifier - a D number AND a class name. So far, there are no clear cases of such a thing being true, though. There is no canon D designation for the K't'inga or the B'Rel or the K'Vort, and no name for D-7 or D-5 or D-12 - and the rest of the names and designations are noncanon.

My interpretation:

D-4/???: a pre-TOS ship, as John M. Ford writes
D-5/???: the TAS ship, also used by Ford
D-6/Klolode: the TOS ship
D-7/Akif: the "Trials and Tribble-ations" ship
D-8/K't'inga: the TMP ship
D-9/????: the small ST3/DS9 BoP,
D-12/B'Rel: the large BoP from "Generations", currently retired or for sale to Ferengi
D-13/K'Vort: the large BoP from TNG/DS9
D-14/Vor'Cha: the attack cruiser
D-15/Negh'Var: the command ship

Timo Saloniemi

 

The only differences were:
(1) The torpedo tube projects OUT of the forward hull instead of being recessed.
(2) There are a pair of horizontal fins on the ship, near the back of the neck, I believe.

Other than that, the designs are identical. Apparently, the animators used a TOS model kit as the reference, and the instructions were a bit off the mark with regard to those two features. But otherwise, they're identical.

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You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

 

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
 

IMHO the minor differences between TOS and TAS vessels would justify differing designations - and internal differences could be more extreme, considering that only the TAS ships were seen with stasis weapons, and the interiors of the TOS ships in Romulan service differed quite a bit from the TAS Klingon interiors (too bad we never saw Klingon interiors in TOS).

The fact that we saw no definite ship in "Errand of Mercy" could mean that Klingons had partially working cloaks back then. Or then we could simply rejoice on the fact that for once we saw space combat at realistic distances, so that the opponents saw each other only as specks of light.

Timo Saloniemi

 

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-Homer Simpson

 

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

JDW
 

It would seem the effects people have never watched TOS, and are thinking that the only weapons ports on the ships are the opening at the bow and (on select ships) a corresponding hole at the stern. This is where torps and red (phaser?) beams always erupt from.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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"The Internet. Is that thing still around?"
-Homer Simpson

[This message has been edited by Galen (edited February 20, 2001).]
 

The "Rules" ship used the red beam weapon firing from the bow opening, again suggesting that if a connection with TOS was attempted, it was a rather half-hearted attempt. Or then a deliberate effort to show that these old ships are useful only through major refitting that involves swapping the primary weapons.

Timo Saloniemi