Now that Enterprise is underway and fairly popular now. Now that the Enterprise is known to be far larger than the Daedalus class, and can't be slower than the Daedalus class, how are we going to explain her?
Is she in fact just a scout ship being that she is only roughly 100 meters long? She can't be faster than the NX class, given that Enterprise can make Warp 4.5-5. And the E-nil makes Warp 6-8 in only 110 years later. She also can't be more heavily armed given that the Daedalus is smaller, so can't hold as much weapons.
So what is the Daedlus class?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I always thought it was some sort of long-range scout or explorer. Maybe the engines are as powerful as the NX-engines (has anyone �ver tried to put some NX-nacelles on the Daedalus? ). And the other systems seem to be really less advanced than those of NX. So maybe there were Daedali before they founded the Federation? Allthough NX is NX-01 and Daedalus is 160-something, I always assumed there are already other ships with higher registries in service. It took 30 years to build the Starfleet flagship, hence the 01, but I'm sure Starfleet also assimilated other earth ships into the fleet or built new ship which were finished earlier. It could be one of the five NX-ships meets the NCC-50 on her voyager during the first years.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
On the other hand the Daudalus may have been just a small science vessel like the Oberth & the Nova.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
On the third hand, the design in the Encyclopedia and on Sisko's desk mightn't have been the Daedalus.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
What is it then? Mr. Potatohead in outer space?
The name and registry are those of the USS Horizon, Encyclopedia says Horizon is Daedalus, Sisko's desk makes it canon. OK, they might have pushed it into the right direction, but what keeps us from thinking this is the Daedalus?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, the Horizon isn't canonically a Daedalus, now, is it?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Going by that, we can't say the E-E is cannonically a Sovereign class unless they specifically say so on screen right?
I generally used to think that the Daedalus even before Enterprise as a scout.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I think that if we accept NX-01 as a ship occurring in the stated time frame (2150s), the ship design generally accepted to be Daedalus has to be a lot older. It's layout is too simple and reflects a poorer understanding or warp dynamics to be a contemporary (or later) of NX-01.
My solution is to ignore NX-01.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:It's layout is too simple and reflects a poorer understanding of warp dynamics to be a contemporary (or later) of NX-01.
Yes. Because we all know that Warp Dynamics exist, and how they work.
Indeed, if we're going to get all uptight about "design lineages" (which I don't put too much stock in anyway), the Daedalus design should be pushed closer to the Constitution chronologically. It shares a lot in common with it in terms of styling, considering Jefferies basically adapted the Constitution from the Daedalus rather than design the two as two ships separated by 100 years.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
(With apologies to Masao)
Well, as I recall from Admiral Forrest's conversation with Archer, we know from "Fortunate Son" that there were other Earth vessels which were closer to the Fortunate, but which were limited to warp three.
One might hypothesize that the ship being referred to was a Daedalus.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think the Daedelus is from later on. It needs to be a step on the way to the Constitution Class ships. So what if it is smaller. One might assume that it is a 'next generation' ship where components are SMALLER and thus they don't have to have such a big ship. I reckon that there might be a few tech advancements that are more akin to the E-nil.
The rear shuttle bay - it is not a 'drop' shuttle bay like the NX-E. The big noticable difference/step is the presence of a definite secondary hull. Maybe the 'ball' was a new direction in Warp Field dynamics that didn't 'take off' like the Excelsior and her 'great experiment'. They could have just kept using them.
Maybe these are smaller ships built for the Earth/Romulan wars? Maybe they were the first FEDERATION ships - i.e. to be built by different races working together?
They might have also been the first to be equipped with 'Lasers' or 'photon torps' instead of the big-arsed weaponry of the NX-E?
Andrew
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
As far as we know, the Daedalus ships (or the one known Daedalus, USS Essex, plus the unknown USS Horizon, Archon) never did anything "advanced" or "powerful", like fighting a space battle or moving an asteroid or solving the mystery of the Incredible Space Turkey. All they managed to do was getting killed. This is the standard mission profile of Oberth class ships, right?
That in mind, I'd be happy to write off the Daedaluses as inferior cheap-o science vessels designed either some time prior to the NX-01 or just after her. Given the "internal" weapons of the NX-01 and the NCC-1701, it may be that the Daedaluses are in fact armed even though they lack visible weapons... But they may just as well be completely unarmed, as old Oberths appear to be.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by pIn'a' Sov (Member # 293) on :
Personally, I like to think of it as a hospital ship considering the likeness to the Olympic-class. I have always wanted to see more diverified Federation ships. All we get to see are the fighting ships, with a few exceptions. I would have liked to have seen the fuel ship mentioned in TNG tech manual, a huge passengerliner, and so on.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I think that, if we can accept the NCC-1701 to be a hundred years newer than NX-01, we may accept the Daedalus as well. The problem in this case is rather that the Daedalus doesn't fit into the design lineage for Starfleet cruisers (of course, it's actually NX-01 that doesn't fir in, but with Enterprise being that popular...). I agree it could be a simple science ship akin to the Oberth (with which it definitely shares the problem of being too crowded). We may want to add some details to the Daedalus to reconcile it with NX-01.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Though I agree that the Daedalus can't (if the NX class are cruisers) top of the line ships like the Constitution was or the Exlcesior was. But to be just a science ship that somehow influences later starship designers to copy her, makes it seem a little strange.
But then again, we all know that the Daedalus class retires at 2196, right? Then if we assume that they have 40-50 yea lifespans then the Daedalus class is about the same age as the NX class.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Here's something to toss into the mix:
We know that at least one Daedalus-class ship made it to a point that was a hundred light-years beyond Federation space a hundred years later. That's a long, long way out at Warp Three.
Ref: "A Piece of the Action"
Therefore, a Daedalus must have had greater range than the small expendable Earth cruisers of the NX-01 era.
Of course, there's very little connection between the the design of the NX-01 and the design of the Daedalus... making the task of drawing a line from NX-01 to Constitution a lot harder.
Posted by Dan Stack (Member # 516) on :
With regard to the Daedalus lineage, it may look so different from NX-01 given that NX-01 is built by humans only (we no Vulcans were of practically no help at all) while it might be reasonable for Daedalus to be a joint design, the first made by the Federation Starfleet. Maybe Tellarites love big sphere ships... Or perhaps it was "starship design by committee".
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Hmm... that's a possibility. But IMO the Daedalus looks too much like a Human-built ship anyway. Despite 35 years in difference (design time), they carry too many of the same stylistic features, like the greyish hull, long nacelles extended from the ship, and so on.
Besides, you have to consider that Starfleet remains a force that's dominated by Humans in the TOS era, a hundred years later... so why would non-Humans be contributing to the design of ships that their people won't be serving on?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
A few notes ( i havent read all these posts yet )
NX-01: Most of us here dont think that NX-01 has anything to do with the Federation starfleet. I think its just as likely that the other Earth ships that were limited to warp 3 had registries like NV-16 and NR-102, etc.. and that there wont be any NCC registries until 2161 (and the NX being the same as Fed SF NX regs is coincidental or otherwise unrelated).
We also dont know a whole lot about the Daedalus, and if it is ever shown, we really need to accept that the Encyclopedia isnt going to have presented it accurately. If they show it as being a larger than NX-01 and smaller than NCC-1701, I'd be willing to accept the change of its design, and disregard Okuda's graphics from the Encyclopedi�.
And since the Horizon was never clearly seen in any DS9 episode on Sisko's desk, yes i consider it to remain in the domain of 'questionable' canon.. it can and should be contradicted should it become necessary (though i doubt it will).. seeing as no canonical Trek production has ever specifically stated how long a Daedalus is, I'd be willing to disregard the dimensions of the model for a more sensible scaling that makes it a more sensible bridge between ENT and TOS
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
I rewatched "Piece of the Action"; the only info gleaned from that episode is that
1) The Horizon reached the planet, messed it up, left, and was "lost" with all of its crew aboard (the episode doesn't explain what happened to it).
2) The Horizon didn't have subspace radio (according to Kirk), and sent a conventional radio message that took 100 years to reach the Federation (it was received "last month" relative to the time of the episode).
3) Kirk says (paraphrasing) that Sigma Iotia is in the far reaches of the galaxy, indicating that we're talking about a starbase or a subspace beacon receiving the message, suggesting a distance of much more than 100 light-years from Earth.
I also checked the script for "Power Play":
1) There hasn't been a Daedalus in service for 172 years.
2) The Essex, NCC-173 with a crew of 229, under the overall command (in that sector) of Admiral Uttan Narsu of Starbase 12, disappeared "over two hundred years ago."
3) The Essex sent out a subspace beacon, so it did have the radio.
The Horizon was probably fulfilling the same kind of mission as Kirk's ship, albeit with more primitive tech and without the Prime Directive. We might interpret Kirk's line about the lacking subspace radio as an error -- maybe Kirk was informed that the Horizon didn't use subspace radio (it was damaged?), and rationalized it with a vague recollection of history.
The simplest explanation is that the Horizon is a ship newer than the NX-01, launched a few years after the founding of the Federation and sent out on an independent, long-range exploration mission. Alternatively, it could be an older Earth ship that was refitted and adopted into the new Starfleet.
It's a weird thing, though, that the subspace beacon of the Essex remained undetected for 200 years, and that the moon where it crashed is referred to as "unexplored", despite the suggestion that there was a starbase in the sector 200 years ago. Or maybe Starbase 12 was responsible for all the unexplored sectors as well.
Boris
[ March 13, 2002, 13:23: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Sowhat do we have on the general mission of the Daedalus class?
1. All the missions we have read or heard about indicates that these ships are explorers. Also alot of these missions, these ships are destroyed somehow.
2. The Daedalus class is smaller, and does not have nearly as much room as the NX class, so one could assume that these ships are second of the line ships next to the NX class and other large ships.
3. Only Starfleet ships this small are the Oberth class and the Defiant class (if you count the 120 meters) and possibly the Nova class. Two of these ships are designed as science ships.
I agree that these ships are possibly the Oberth class of their day. However what bugs me, why make the general design of all their ships look like a disposable science ship?
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
You forget the Raven at 90m (if you count it as a Starfleet ship). It, too, was both a science ship and a proud member of the go-too-far-and-get-killed category.
The missions of the Daedaluses were more risky than that of the NX-01, considering that in both cases mentioned thus far, radio contact had been lost for a while. The Essex seems to have lost communications with Starfleet quite some time before it disappeareed, otherwise Starfleet would've known which moon they crashed on, or at least the general area. This is also supported by the "weak subspace beacon" that wasn't detected until the Enterprise arrived. Maybe that's why the Horizon used conventional radio, rather than subspace radio to send its message.
The crew of 229 in such a small volume also suggest the kind of a spartan atmosphere that the NCC-1701 would feature later on. Maybe the NX-01 never really went *that* far (which will be supported by the TNG-era conception of speed and distances), and spent most of its time in the immediate neighborhood. You don't send out your best ships on such risky assignments -- the NX-01 has a great political value, being the first ship to defy the Vulcans' domination and all that.
Boris
[ March 13, 2002, 14:45: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
At the time of "ENT" we don't have 'word' classes they are 'letters' so I'd say it's after the NX-01 is launched (that we get the first Daedelii)
As mentioned - gone quite far out.
"Starbase 12" Earth must have starbases in ENT's time SURELY. I think it holds up that Cochrane wasn't a native of Earth, but may have been living/stuck there during WWIII.
I noticed in "Operation:- Annhilate" that Deneva was established over 100 years ago by traders... that would plonk it during 'Enterprise' time... It'd be nice to visit there again. (Where was ep filmed?)
Anyway, I think the big thing here is that the Daedelii have 200+ crew members, (and presumably less bulky equipment) in contrast to NX-Enterprise's 80 members.
Oh, and a big difference - a secondary hull.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
The larger crew tells us something about its mission profile; after all, people need people on long-range journeys, and besides, if you're out there exploring without the support of starbases, you'll need a number of specialists for various missions.
[ March 14, 2002, 07:04: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: I think it holds up that Cochrane wasn't a native of Earth, but may have been living/stuck there during WWIII.
What?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Attempts to rationalize Enterprise are pretty much doomed to failure due to the more blatant continuity contradictions.
Biggie: The S.S. Columbia sets out for the Talos Star Group around 2235 on a survey mission. At the time, no ships travel faster than warp 4. This "time barrier" isn't broken until the Constitution class or thereabouts...
...But NX-01 can go how fast? Yup, that's what I thought. Numbers like that are the hardest thing to fudge.
--Jonah
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Stop! The centripetal forces on my pupils are killing me!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System:
quote: I think it holds up that Cochrane wasn't a native of Earth, but may have been living/stuck there during WWIII.
What?
Ohh, that - it stems from a thread about 2 or so years ago, where we were talking about explaining Cochrane's home (I think it was mentioned in TOS as being Alpha Centauri.) We were also trying to rationalise that with why Mars colonies weren't established until - what was it 2100 I think...
We have the search feature now - but I wonder how easily it'd pick up that thread!?!
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
First, nobody ever said in "The Cage" that Warp 4 was the time barrier. The only line to that effect is this: "The time barrier has been broken. Our ships can...." and that's where it ends.
Second, all they said about Cochrane is that he's "of Alpha Centauri" -- he could've easily settled there later, as indicated by the TNGTM.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Biggie: The S.S. Columbia sets out for the Talos Star Group around 2235 on a survey mission. At the time, no ships travel faster than warp 4. This "time barrier" isn't broken until the Constitution class or thereabouts...
Noone said Warp 4. Remember too that Warp 5 is the *top* speed of the NX-01, while the NCC-1701 top speed was around Warp 8. Considering the Vulcans can do 6.5 max, the barrier may be something like Warp 7.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I agree, however one might wonder what happened in those hundred years where the maximum speed of Warp 5 and the cruising speed of Warp 6 100 years later with a top max speed of Warp 8. That is 512x the speed of the light compared to 125x the speed of the light.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Okay. So, in one century, the maximum speed doubled. What's wrong w/ that?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Then you got TNG which speed in about 8 times as fast. Where top speed was 9.6 and then it was 9.9+ a few years later.
Actually it makes sense, for the speed to only double. Because it took 30 years to get to Warp 5. However what makes no sense seeing that Vulcans already had ships going past Warp 6. Possibly fast than that. So the Vulcans did not share any of that technology with the humans, so they had to develop it on their own?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
). And the other systems seem to be really less advanced than those of NX. So maybe there were Daedali before they founded the Federation? Allthough NX is NX-01 and Daedalus is 160-something, I always assumed there are already other ships with higher registries in service. It took 30 years to build the Starfleet flagship, hence the 01, but I'm sure Starfleet also assimilated other earth ships into the fleet or built new ship which were finished earlier. It could be one of the five NX-ships meets the NCC-50 on her voyager during the first years.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Or perhaps it was "starship design by committee".