Mwa! Look at the ship view at the end of the clip. It's not like what we see in TOS! Its' not a tripartite ship! It's not obsidian! It's...
Well, I'll tell you tomorrow in the tech review.
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I don't know what to think of your description. I still have to wait 7 minutes for the ZIP to download...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Huh?
I only see the "futiristic ship" in the launch bay and a bunch of Suliban pods chasing Enterprise. Or is that white cross-shaped blob supposed be from the 'Tholianischischer!'?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Yeah, I caught it the second time I saw the preview for it (seeing UPN shows it 4 times during the ep) in the asteroids or whatever they were flying through. I think it is fair to say that it looks as comparitive to the tholian ship in TOS as the romulan bird-of-preys between the two series looked. The same, but different.
PS the "future ship" looks like crap...i was hoping something more Aeon-esque.
[ February 18, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
They look more like mines or something, there seems to be one flying off of the Suliban ship as it explodes. If they are ships, they must be unmanned. They don't look any bigger than the Cell ships.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The Tholian ships in TOS were pretty small themselves, though -- only 25 to 30 meters, IIRC.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: The Tholian ships in TOS were pretty small themselves, though -- only 25 to 30 meters, IIRC.
Hmm...news to me, I didnt know its size was ever established. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, you can see them flying in front of and behind the E. Some approximate length could be derived from that.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Ahh. I see them now. It looks like a flying cigar...
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Boah, did you say a CIGAH shape? Dang, them varmints'll be hearing from mah lawyer for when they done abducted mah grandpaw! 8)
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Don't make me call in Ombuds Wellington... Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Don't make me call in Ombuds Wellington...
Hey now...is that Babylon 5 talk I'm hearing??
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Nope, definitely not, move along, nothing to see here. . . 8)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Damn rubberneckers.. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
My take on it, anyway.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
That ship you have labelled as Tholian? is actually Yet Another Suliban Ship.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
A new design, presumably? My point was that it was the only ship present that was unknown.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Any pics of the Tholian ship yet?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
If I could get my capture card working, I'd do some caps... I'm sure someone else here has the ability to do that?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I wont even get to see the episode until Saturday because DAMN UPN likes to preempt Enterprise every other week for basketball and so forth.... Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I'll see if I can get it working again...
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
While I'm thinking about the Aeon, didn't the Tholian ship share similarities to it?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
In what way? They both traveled through space...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
And had a diamond silhouette. But the Aeon had distinct (if blended) wings and hull. The Tholian ship was more like wing-only or hull-only, depending on whether you are a glass-half-full or glass-half-empty kind of a guy.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
As always, if you�re looking for pics from the latest episodes of Enterprise, check out my friend�s place: Trekconnection Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Tholians. So we basically learn nothing new about them?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What's new? I mean we hardly know anything new about the Andorians. Oh yeah, big suprise - they're a paranoid race.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Hmm. Perhaps we should consolidate these two tech threads about the same episode?
Mark
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
We learned several new things about the Tholians. Their voices can tell us a lot about their physiology. Their ships are 200 degrees on the inside, their ships used energy weapons (not webs) they used a tractor beam, just like the Vulcan TB, the ships cordinated their attacks, but didn't act as if under a single mind (so much for the hive-mind theory). The Vulcans knew about them, and the Sulaban arn't afraid of them. They didn't do any damage to the Vulcan ship outside of disabling it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If the Sulibon are'nt afraid of the Tholians they sure should be: they get their ass killed by them after all. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Hive mind theory? Sigh.
Anyway, mostly the episode just seemed to confirm things that were assumed from "The Tholian Web" but not made explicit. The idea that Tholians aren't humanoid, for instance.
Oh, yeah, and also: they are super cool.
And while these Tholian ships didn't have a web spinner attached, that's fine, because A.) that device is useless (Oh no, they are very slowly building some sort of weird energy filiment thing around us! In several hours, we will be trapped!) and B.) their tactics seemed to be very much in line with the idea of the web. Namely, they spent most of their time disabling or ensaring other ships. Except for the Suliban. Ouch.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I wonder if they are ever going to be brave enough to actually show the Tholians, I wonder which look they'd for. What has been speculated over the years? I know of only two concepts for their appearance; one being just a floating crystal with eyes and I've heard of but not seen another that looks like a crystal version of the Excaliban.
With all that sneaky web spinning and ensnarement behaviour perhaps they're some sort of bizarre arachnid, perhaps with an exotic crystal based exoskeleton?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Just for Shits and GigglesTM, and because I happen to own a variety of old Trek books, I present for the enjoyment of all an examination of some of the info given about the Tholians in non-canon (though, at the time, officially licensed) reference works over the years:
Exhibit A Information from the ancient (vintage 1977) Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual, a fairly cool (though at times scientifically questionable) little book researched and compiled by Eileen Palestine and Our PalTM Geoffrey Mandel, illustrated by Our Other PalsTM Doug Drexler and Anthony Fredrickson. This is where the aforementioned "hive-mind theory" originates, as does the notion that there may be different castes of Tholians, organized in a somewhat insectoid-like hierarchy. Also presented here for the first time is info on the nature of their home world. The lettered labels below the main text correspond to the illustration in the following exhibit.
Exhibit B The corresponding anatomical illustration that accompanies the Manual's text entry. Apparently the authors/illustrators didn't think there was any more to the being's structure than the "head," which is puzzling considering that Commander Loskene's "shoulders" were also visible on the viewscreen in "The Tholian Web" (TOS).
Exhibit C Info from Shane Johnson's speculative Worlds of the Federation, published in 1989. It used the Medical Reference Manual as a reference and built on its treatment with some historical datapoints and the like.
Exhibit D Johnson's interpretation of what the race looked like.
Exhibit E Color art by Don Ivan Punchatz from Worlds of the Federation showing a Tholian and two other familiar non-humanoids from TOS: the Excalbian from "The Savage Curtain" and the Horta from "The Devil in the Dark." Punchatz's art is one of the coolest things about this otherwise rather unimpressive book. Someday I should post the rest of his vibrantly-colorful paintings from it, which show a wide array of lifeforms from the ST universe. This low-res scan hardly does the work justice---but it is, after all, merely for demonstrative purposes.
Exhibit F The "other" interpretation of the Tholians' appearance to which I assume Rev refers. This one come from the 1980s-90s Star Trek: The Next Generation comic book series from DC Comics.
And there you have it, ladies and gents. It's interesting to see how such literature obviously influenced Mike Sussman and Phyllis Strong in writing the Tholians into "Future Tense" (ENT), what with the high-intensity heat environment bit and such. I think they may end up being the saviors of the series, being obvious TOS fans and fairly good writers. (I absolutely LOVED this episode, and really enjoyed "The Catwalk" as well.)
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd prefer something with arms and legs....but less stupid looking than that TNG comic with the Tholians having GIANT HEADS!!!! They definitlty require limbs of some kind: They just could'nt evolve into an intelligent space faring civilization without limbs for handling tools and some form of locomotion.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Fascinating little treatise there. Wasn't there a Tholian in the Peter David books, or am I misremembering?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Tholians were in Vendetta, but they were represented as being sort of pirates that attack vessels....and Loskene was still alive, still a commander, and thought the Enterprise D was Kirk's ship...(shudder). NOT a good part of an otherwise enjoyable book. The high point is when the Tholians ensnare a bOrg cube in their web (it now only takes a couple of minutes to make). It does not last long though....
...and nobody commented on their appearance.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Geez the floating crystal looks crappier than I remember!
I agree it needs to have something with arms and legs - or at least a proportional body.
Maybe they wear encounter suits. Yes B5 - but they don't have to call them "encounter suits".
OK and in reply to what I meant about "what we know about the Tholians" I mean - we haven't really learned anything new about the Andorians. Woah they're paranoid. We already knew that.
Andrew
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Actually, now I've had time to think - wasn't it a Tellarite in those books. . ?
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Most amazing of all-in the last year of TOS, a show with an admittedly shrinking budget, they were able to create life forms which weren't humaniod-the Excalibia life form, the 'Medusa' life form, the life form in "Spector of the Gun", and the life form of the Tholians. All these were intelligent life forms capable of building civilizations and conducting talks with other alien life forms. The most intelligent non-humaniod life form in modern Star Trek is a talking vegetable from the first season of Enterprise.
They have more of a budget. Why can't they be more creative in the alien life form department?
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
quote:Maybe they wear encounter suits. Yes B5 - but they don't have to call them "encounter suits".
Sure! Why not? A weird race in funny suits with harsh,screeching and barely, if ever, translated speech would be unique. Maybe thorughout the series Silik or Shran can drop hints that Tholia is really quite pleasant.
Posted by Sorak (Member # 874) on :
But they're NON-humanoid. They CAN'T have arms and legs, can they?
Or is my definition of "humanoid" screwed up?
Just a side comment, in "Exhibit E" the picture of the Horta looks crappy. Am I the only one that saw a striking resemblance to a big ol' plate of spaghetti and meatballs?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well there is humanoid and bipedal. Maybe non-humanoid means not derived from the race from "The Chase" and/or the Preservers from TOS.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Excuse me, but talking vegetable? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sorak: But they're NON-humanoid. They CAN'T have arms and legs, can they?
Or is my definition of "humanoid" screwed up?
Just a side comment, in "Exhibit E" the picture of the Horta looks crappy. Am I the only one that saw a striking resemblance to a big ol' plate of spaghetti and meatballs?
They might have several arm and legs or they could be genengenered for life in a vaccum... Just not "actor in a suit" humanoid. I was sooo disapointed in the severe lack of imagination reagarding Trek's first CGI aliens: Species 8472. If they lived in a fluidic environment would'nt they look like they could swim through it? Geeez. The only way the Tholian "floating crystal head" works is by making the Tholians exceptionally advanced telekinetically....way more than anything we've seen on Trek. How else could they get around, build their ships and play poker?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Excuse me, but talking vegetable?
I think he means Berman.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
It should be noted that while Species 8472 came from fluidic space, their ships didn't have fluidic atmospheres, for some reason or another...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That could mean that they didn't evolve in fluidic space after all, it could just be a domain that they conquered and kept for themselves. They obviously have the ability to move between different...whatever FS was...and it was never made clear if they could do this before the Borg invaded or after.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Regarding the Tholians: if they are indeed a crystal based lifeform then perhaps they can grow whatever appendages or limbs they might need at will which could mean that they can look like any one of those depictions if they wish. Which would make them shapeshifters, sort of.
Another possibility is that they are only semi-corporeal and are in fact plasma based and the crystal structures are like shells that they harvest on their homeworld and use to travel around and interact with objects without melting them. Perhaps they evolved within their home sun and were colonised on Tholia by a solar flare?
One small point though, wasn't there an episode early on in TNG where they encountered a crystal based lifeform and it was something totally new to Federation science? (no I'm not thinking of the crystalline entity...although that may also apply) If I'm right then either the Tholians are not crystal based or the Federation were never able to learn anything much about Tholian physiology until after said episode. In which case then we probably won't actually see the Tholians on Enterprise other than on the viewscreen....not that violating canon is unheard of on that show.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, in a TNG episode it was also stated that an inorganic lifeform was "unheard of," apparently ignoring the Horta from "Devil in the Dark" (TOS) and possibly others, so...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: That could mean that they didn't evolve in fluidic space after all, it could just be a domain that they conquered and kept for themselves. They obviously have the ability to move between different...whatever FS was...and it was never made clear if they could do this before the Borg invaded or after.
Intresting idea. Mabye Species 8472 uses Fluidic Space as their version of Transwarp or hyperspace....they liked it so much they bought the entire dimension.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
while organic, if I remember correctly, means something has carbon in it, that meaning does have some contraversy to it. There are silicon life-forms even on Earth, in acid pools near old volcanic craters... can't remember the location of where they were found anymore. I think that silicon might expand the defination of organic compounds.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: There are silicon life-forms even on Earth
Not in this reality, sadly.
As far as fluidic space goes, I live in vaccumic space, but tend to like something a bit thicker when it comes to atmosphere.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: while organic, if I remember correctly, means something has carbon in it, that meaning does have some contraversy to it.
Some ignorant laypeople might think "organic" means "alive," but that doesn't mean the true definition of "carbon-based" is controversial. It just means ignorant laypeople are wrong.
quote:I think that silicon might expand the defination of organic compounds.
How would silicon make organic not mean "carbon-based" anymore?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Plus, didn't Voyager once mention that they didn't know about silicon-based lifeforms until they found a rock stuck in that big glowing lemon?
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Voyager said alot of things, pallie. It's like watching a TV show written by some kid that keeps making up stories to out-do everyone else: even if they make no sense and are completely uninformed. *"faster than light, no left or right" * Dinosaurs had a high tech civilization and left earth in spaceships *Transwarp turns humanoids into little salamanders: this process is reversable too! *Starfleet and private researchers knew all about the Borg prior to Picard's first contact with them. and my personal favorite: * Amelia Earheart(sp?) is still alive after being abducted by aliens. Holy fuck: did they hire all their writers from Weekly World News ?!? I completely expexted the final episode to reveal the Borg are really controlled by Hitler's brain in a jar. People talk about Enterprise being some kind of continuity destroying cancer, but at least they try to make plausable stories. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think Tholians are really Spock's "Marshmelons"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What's the big deal about species 8472 not living in actual fluidic space fluid or what ever.
1. I don't think Fluidic Space is actually FLUID - but the properties of that dimension/subspace domain, has a S/T continuum that is fluidic in nature. Everyone's not floating around in molasses.
2. Our ships move through space, a vacuum. Species 8472 ships move through fluid-space. Where they live is not necessarily fluidic or what ever. Just like we don't live on a Vacuum.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Huh? How can something be fluidic without pertaining to fluid? Your "vacum cleaner" analgy makes no sense: we DO live in a vaccum (99% anyway). Scorpion pt.2 made it pretty clear to me that fluidic space was a fluid filled dimension: kinda like that gum we chewed as kids: y'know, the stuff that lost all flavor after you used up the gooey fluid center? That's why the Borg risk getting their asses kicked there. All those assimilated species left a really bad taste in their collective mouths.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
No-one said anything about a vacuum cleaner.
The point is that, even though our space is almost entirely vacuum, we still live in pockets of atmosphere. So, if fluidic space is almost entirely some "fluid", the beings living there may still live in pockets of a different atmospehere.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
How would an atmosphere keep out something fluid (as fluid would have the mass and resistance that Voyager encountered upon entering Fluidic space)? I suppose there could be regoins of fluidic space that harbor strange lifeforms in a kind of fluid nebula composed of differing chemicals. I don't recall any planets in there (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken). Light might be provided via plasma streams or chemical interaction....I don't remember seeing any stars in there but it has been a while....
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: No-one said anything about a vacuum cleaner.
The point is that, even though our space is almost entirely vacuum, we still live in pockets of atmosphere. So, if fluidic space is almost entirely some "fluid", the beings living there may still live in pockets of a different atmospehere.
Like a giant, planet sized fart bubble? Or big hollow planets ala Yonada?
If they're from empty expanses of atmosphere (like a gas giant) then they wouldn't have legs, indeed they would look more like those flying things from "Equinox". The hollow planet might be an option and it would explain their funny looking eyes to some degree. Still the basic arrangement of Species 8472 is still that of a humanoid with and extra leg and slightly altered proportions (two necks, small waist funny looking chest cavity) not quite alien enough to be from another dimension...then again nether are those beings that cut off Riker's arm and stuck it back one, I forget the episode name.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Excellent. All of this reminds me of an amusing quote from Futurama.
Leela: "Depth at 4500 feet, 4800, 5000. Five thousand feet!" Farnsworth: "Dear lord, that's over 150 atmospheres of pressure." Fry: "How many atmospheres can the ship withstand ?" Farnsworth: "Well, it's a spaceship, so I'd say anything between 0 and 1."
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
The Tholians would have to have arms or laser eyes to cut that door in Future Tense
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Or squads of combat robots. Or a unique empathy with airlock doors, such that the door was willing to throw itself off its hinges.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Metaphorically speaking.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Or else they hired Stormtroopers... Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Im about 5 days behind and I did some serious skimming, and I've noticed that no one mentioned the Sheliak. Aren't they some sort of crystilline or rock or silicon-based species or something of the sort?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
No they're just described as being Non-humanoid although the one that was seen was portrayed by a typical "Bloke in Dodgy Monster SuitTM"...which looked humanoid enough if you ask me.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er, the Sheliak we saw looked pretty much like an undifferentiated mass, or so it has always appeared to me.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It was a bloke in a suit, you can tell by the way it moved. Anyway, the encyclopedia calls the Sheliak a "Classification R-3 Lifeform" and is "...vaguely humanoid" so make of that what you will.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Guess I just always thought of the Sheliak as a rock or magma creature, but then again, why would its ship be constructed the way it was with the interior enviornment able to sustain humans. I guess it is because they always reminded me of the rock creature from "the Savage Curtain".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, yes, obviously it was a guy in a suit. In fact, once upon a time I thought it was a reuse of the Armus suit. But my point is it hardly has proper arms or legs (not that we ever really see its legs), or a head, for that matter.
As for the environment they prefer, remember that the planet they wanted to colonize was, with the exception of being bathed in deadly radiation, habitable by humans. It would seem the Sheliak are fond of oxygen and roughly one gravity as well, or at least these things present no inconvenience to them.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Actually I was debating my own theory of them being rock creatures aloud.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Or squads of combat robots. Or a unique empathy with airlock doors, such that the door was willing to throw itself off its hinges.
Tholians live in unbearable heat and thrive in hard radiation.....mabye they were just hosing the door after several Miller Lites. ...or they really need to trade some of their nifty weapons tech for a good blowtorch.
As to the Shelliac: are they bugs or what? I think the Jarada were supposed to be bugs too but that thread, sadly, is lost to time now....
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I should have an old TNG-novel somwhere dealing with the Jarada. I think they were even pictured on the cover.
8472: The guy from Unimatrix Zero (Axus, Axun, whatever) said his cube was patrolling fluidic space at the edge of the beta quadrant. The line didn't make much sense (the common Voyager-pseudo-continuity-line), but it may lead us to reconcider the overall "shape" of the 8472-dimension (besides that, they can exist in a vacuum, why shouldn't they be able to exist in fluidic space, too? Maybe their 'home - whatever it may be - inside the FS is also covered by green slime. If they have to move - swim - through it, they could have some sort of "wings" or fins inside pockets in their body. Like birds. You wouldn't guess they have large wings until you see them.
Sheliak: Some offspring of the Excalibans?
Tholians: I prefer the crystal-without-arms-and-legs-version. Do you remember the image of the heavy exo-suit from the TNGTM? If there are any arms, they are pobably just manipulators of some sort, nothing "natural". In this case, of course, the whole tholian appearance could be one suit. Maybe they are xenophobic because they are weak and vulnerable without their suits.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
....sooooo....what did the Jarada look like? Anybody want to speculate on what a Sheliak cruiser would look like? We only ever saw the slight mod of the Merchantman studio model as their colony ship. They were treated like they had formidable tech/weapons/voodoo.
How long 'till we see the Orions?
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: There are silicon life-forms even on Earth
I seem to recall an article in "New Scientist" some years back, that pointed out that silicon-based life would spontaneously combust in an oxygen atmosphere. However, there are some oddities of evolution on Earth; the horseshoe crab, like the Vulcans, has a copper-based globin in its blood instead of an iron-based one like humans.
End of scientific trivia Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The Jaradans look insectoid, according to dialogue. They look like something off-screen, according to non-dialogue.
As for the Sheliak, it seemed to have a head, at least, since it looked pretty much like a guy w/ a blanket over him.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I thought it was the Armus costume, like Simon used to. WHEN DID THIS INFORMATION CHANGE?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not saying that it did. But, it does look kind of different, and thus my once solid conclusion now seems much shakier.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I don't think it is the Armus costume, if you compare the two you'll notice that the Sheliak looks far more bulky and not so flexible. Besides I doubt that the Armus piece was much more than a very basic rubber or somesuch material which was covered in black gunk (poor bloke must have had serious trouble breathing in that thing), the Sheliak on the other hand seams to be more of a sculpted piece.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: ....sooooo....what did the Jarada look like? Anybody want to speculate on what a Sheliak cruiser would look like? We only ever saw the slight mod of the Merchantman studio model as their colony ship. They were treated like they had formidable tech/weapons/voodoo.
How long 'till we see the Orions?
The title of the novel was 'Imbalance'. Sorry, but the cover did not have an artwork of a Jarada.
*Which* Orions? Any of the Rigellians? The green slave girls maybe? I thought the term 'Orion Syndicate' just indicated a multi-species organisation based on one of the planets from the Orion belt (or has there ever been a direct reference to a planet named 'Orion'?) Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov:
quote: *Which* Orions? Any of the Rigellians? The green slave girls maybe? I thought the term 'Orion Syndicate' just indicated a multi-species organisation based on one of the planets from the Orion belt (or has there ever been a direct reference to a planet named 'Orion'?) Correct me if I'm wrong though.
I always thought that the Orion Syndicate was the Orion equivelant (loosely) of the Federation...as in an alliance or collection of a shady groups of individuals and species organized presumably by the Orions (the "Green Skinned" people), who themselves are an individual political entity.
We saw Orion slave girls and Orion terrorists in TOS (The Cage, Whom Gods Destroy, and The Journey to Babel), Orion Pirates in TAS (The Pirates of Orion), and then we heard of the Orion Syndicate in DS9 (The Ascent, Honor Among Thieves, Prodigal Daughter).
As a whole they have been hinted at quite significantly, but never given half the attention you would expect, as they are indeed one of the original species Trek ever created...a la "The Cage".
I, personally, think the Orions deserve the same treatment as the Andorians have gotten...and not to sound like a broken record, the same with the Tellarites. When it really comes down to it, they could add these two species easily, as well as continue with the Tholians and Andorians, leave the Romulans alone for the next 3 years and forget the Klingons altogether and there is certainly enough material here to work with to create some gold, true to a prequel. Instead of our consistant run-ins with species and technologies and prison ships that have no place in Enterprise.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I believe the Encyclopedia has a single reference to planet/star Orion, presumably from DS9, but I forget what it is. By tomorrow we'll know... Of course, since there is no planet/star Orion currently in existence, it could be that the Trek location lies nowhere near the constellation or nebula of that name, and just
a) is coincidentally named the same way or b) falls on the line between Earth and Orion.
While the Orion syndicate no doubt is a multispecies organization (as we saw in "Honor Among Thieves"), TAS valiantly tries to say that there is a green-skinned race of Orions where the stereotypical male is a pirate and the female is a slave. But even if we accept that as canon, it doesn't mean there couldn't be other "Orion races" as well.
And the green skin of the known Orions could be something like Yakuza tattoos - an indication of social or crime-organizational status. Perhaps you get greened when you become a slave or a pirate (which may even be the same thing to some extent), but purpled if you are an important boss person...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Quark wanted to go to Orion to drop stuff off or something. Here's an interesting excerpt from Trimble's Concordance:
quote: � Orion planet: The originally colonized, most inhabited planet in the Orion star system, noted for traders, treachery and green animal women. Dr. Roger Korby improved immunization techniques with information from the Orion ruins ("What Are Little Girls Made Of?"). Orion smugglers raid Coridan for dilithium crystals, and when discovered, both and Orion spy destroy themselves ("Journey to Babel"). [..snip!..] Orion also has pirates. The planet tries to maintain an air of neutrality, but it is a thinly veiled license to pray on anyone ("The Pirates of Orion"). Kirk, Spock and historian Erikson go through the time portal into the past of Orion to study it firsthand ("Yesteryear"). Kirk and Mendez seem slightly regretful that they have no personal experience with Orion slave girls ("The Menagerie"). � Orion colony: An area of Orion inhabited by a variety of species, several of which are humanoid and intelligent: the golden-skinned interpreter of the laws, Devna ("Time Trap"), Thelev ("Journey to Babel"), Orion pirates ("Pirates of Orion") and the semi-intelligent, green-skinned, tailed Orions ("The Cage"). The vile business may be eradicated, to judge from the lack of reference to it by Thelev ("Journey to Babel") and Marta ("Whom Gods Destroy").
My guess would be that the planet Orion is that officially neutral world, perhaps with an old Earth colony gone corrupt (which isn't unusual in Kirk's days), and the Orion Syndicate is basically it's mafia, with a lot of influence on a number of planets (like DS9's Farius Prime) and sponsoring pirating, smuggling and the trade in sex slaves. It would seem that Orion has to have something valuable to it that would ensure it's 'neutrality' towards the Federation, despite ovbiously supporting criminals.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
So Trek's Orion and the stellar constellation are in no way related to each other? Like the 'real' Rigel and 'Trek' Rigel? The planet itself could indeed be independent. We heard that the Klingons had their own embassy on the planet Miles visited. If the planet is an Orion colony (maybe like New Sydney where the Syndicate seems to have some influence, too) or something similar it would make sense. Did we ever hear about Klingons or other species having embassies on Federation worlds outside earth? I don't think so. Furthermore, if earth and other Federation planets are indeed so paradise-like, why did that planet's capital look like a huge slum? From our definition, it can hardly be a Federation world.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I doubt most colonies are a paradise. There are quite a few colonies that have gone bad (for example Tasha Yar's colony).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
To each his own. It is equally strange to me that primitive and often narrow-minded rural communities would be the norm for Federation worlds, but that seems to be the case for late TNG and DS9.
Do embassies/consulates on DS9 count? There are several, according to the in-joke-infested information screen and some dialogue (including the Tholians, to get back on the subject). Are those embassies to the UFP, or to Bajor, or merely there for the convenience of travelers from Gamma?
Do Vulcans in the UFP still have an embassy to Earth, since they have an ambassador? Uhura was supposed to go there in ST3 in the novelization, but the reference may not have made it to the screen. I'd assume there are embassies and consulates everywhere, criscrossing political alliances and lines of battle in an unholy mess.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I, personally, think the Orions deserve the same treatment as the Andorians have gotten...and not to sound like a broken record, the same with the Tellarites. When it really comes down to it, they could add these two species easily, as well as continue with the Tholians and Andorians, leave the Romulans alone for the next 3 years and forget the Klingons altogether and there is certainly enough material here to work with to create some gold, true to a prequel. Instead of our consistant run-ins with species and technologies and prison ships that have no place in Enterprise.
Oddly enough, I was talking with my friend (and renowned fan) Alex Rosenzweig about the possibility of more TOS "throwaway" races being used in Enterprise at the weekend. Forget putting Archer up against the Borg, as the current rumours suggest - some of our posters have hit the nail on the head with the suggestion that other races could be more fully fleshed out. After all, Trek series VI might well be a Cage-era show, or the Captain Sulu series, or something requiring a new depth to the many background touches of TOS.
Coincidentally, when I was writing the story for "The Great Starship Robbery", an episode of the Hidden Frontier fan series, not only did I create an Andorian villain and a major reference to the Orion Syndicate (and this was in late 2000!), but one of the very early drafts featured a crewmember being cosmetically altered to go undercover in an Orion weapons smuggling ring. Of course, it was just a cheap gag to get the cast's resident Baywatch Babe into a bikini and cover her in green body paint, but I'll bet you a tall frosty one that someone from UPN will read this and say "Hey, someone find out how much makeup we'll need to turn Jolene Blalock green!" Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Regarding the Orions... The green-skinned guys in TAS may have had their name spelled "Orion", but it was pronounced "OR-ee-onn", not "oh-RYE-on", like in every single other instance, including other mentions by the TOS characters.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
That's silly.
Talking about silly, there's also the Shamin Priests from O'Ryan's Planet from TMP Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
And of course, the Aamazarites (or Therbians), the Arcturian clone army (hmm, refugees from SW Ep II?), the Rigelian sabre-toothed turtles, and the numerous other minor races seen on the rec deck. Not to mention the guy on the bridge with the severely enlarged cranium, the Deltans...
Or, for that matter, the many races seen thus far only in Trek novels. I bet modern effects technology would produce a nifty rendition of Diane Duane's crystalline bastard-offspring-of-a-spider-and-a-porcupine, the Hamalki!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Ahhhh....fandom overload!!!! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If we're going to canonize aliens from the books lets at least do the Thalollians (at their peak no less!).
....we could also see future fed members the Cordians.
....though please god, no Betazoids! (even their name is lame enough to be a japanese cartoon spinoff!)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If we're going to canonize aliens from the books lets at least do the Thalollians (at their peak no less!).
....we could also see future fed members the Cordians.
....though please god, no Betazoids! (even their name is lame enough to be a japanese cartoon spinoff!)
We already saw the Coridan's in "Shadows of P'Jem", and I would rather see the Betazoids than whatever this weeks "alien of the week" is... Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Ahhhh....fandom overload!!!!
The Motion Picture aliens and their names are NOT fandom. All that info comes from behind-the-scenes notes by Fletcher and err.. someone else.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry:
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Ahhhh....fandom overload!!!!
The Motion Picture aliens and their names are NOT fandom. All that info comes from behind-the-scenes notes by Fletcher and err.. someone else.
Actually, I was referring to Starbuck bringing in all of this novel references in. I'm fully aware of all TMP references.
And while we are on that topic, the Star Trek Phase II Book...is that considered in any way canon? I ask this because Mark Lenard's Klingon Character, named so cleverly "Klingon Captain", in TMP movie credits, was named "Commander Barak" in the script shown in the Phase II Book. Would this be considered semi-canon, at least, just to give the poor Amar captain a true identity?? Or should this just be another classic case of: "to each his own"?
[ February 26, 2003, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
There's no canon name for him, so you could call him whatever you want Although the original script probably carries more weight than mere speculation.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
If Barak is canon, Vkruk is canon, too! Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: If Barak is canon, Vkruk is canon, too!
Who?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend:
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: If Barak is canon, Vkruk is canon, too!
Who?
The Reman Viceroy. From the novelisation of Nemesis. Obviously, we're supposed to believe that's his name.
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Actually, I was referring to Starbuck bringing in all of this novel references in. I'm fully aware of all TMP references.
I just think bringing the novels in, where feasible, would be a good way to expand the franchise. As I understand it, Paramount owns the rights to all the Trek novels, which - along with the movies and the various Marvel and DC comic series - were the prevalent source of Trek in the 80s. Some of them were actually very well done, and could lead to very interesting plotlines for TV episodes, and a lot of retconning.
But I Digress... (TM)
The problem is, if we throw too many species in the melting pot, they risk becoming part of the lousy "Alien of the Week Syndrome". Whilst we can't expect every race to be developed to the same level as the Bajorans or the Klingons, it'd be nice to see the Tholians or Orions expanded upon. And admit it, we all want to see the green dancing girls Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov:
quote:Originally posted by Reverend:
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: If Barak is canon, Vkruk is canon, too!
Who?
The Reman Viceroy. From the novelisation of Nemesis. Obviously, we're supposed to believe that's his name.
However Barak isnt from a novel, he is from a script to a Star Trek series that never was. True it was never "on screen", but production work was done on it, scripts were written for it, and were used in one capacity or another. Had plans for Phase II gone through, this discussion would be null and Barak would be just as canon as Kang, Koloth and Kor.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The problem is that if they do bring in species from the novels then they'd have to pay the author. And they can't have that now can they.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh my yes, pity the plight of the poor Star Trek novelists. So put upon! All they seek is artistic purity. Why, I bet they write those books for free! And, even if they didn't, there are a billion and thirty free Star Trek novels on the Web. They should just pay those authors and use their stories. Yes. I can't wait. The excitement is burning me up inside.
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: The problem is that if they do bring in species from the novels then they'd have to pay the author. And they can't have that now can they.
My understanding of the nature of Star Trek novelists' contracts - at least up until the publishing of Probe by Margaret Wander Bonanno (actually heavily rewritten by Gene deWeese) - was that Paramount owned the novel in its entirety upon completion, and that included all rights to characters, plot threads, races and such. It's very possible that the contract in question has been superceded in recent years, or that I misinterpreted the information I was given. If, however, my understanding is correct, then it opens up a lot of potential sources for little or no cost.
I'm not saying that authors don't deserve a payment for the use of their ideas, just that technically it may not be necessary in some cases. Of course, it's all academic and a digression in any case, since it would make the Trekiverse a heck of a lot more complex to start bringing in a bunch of glass spiders who really can change the laws of physics...
So, in the absence of novel Trek leaking into filmed Trek, I say... Roll on a good development arc for the Tholians, the Andorians, the Tellarites, the Orions, and of course our old friends the Gorn (who are, quite naturally, gorn but not forgotten ). And any other minor, background or one-shot races from any era who happen to turn up and join the fray (Bynars, perhaps? Anticans and Selay and Antideans, oh my!).
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
here's a fascinating idea.. what if, the next set of Powers-That-Be decide to acknowledge the varied licensed history of Trek. Not taking all the questionable novels at face value, of course, but acknowledging fan-favorite concepts in a filmed production, or allowing cross-genre pollination of aliens between four companies worth of comics and three companies of novels and several RPG histories.. not lifting or plagiarizing their material, but mining it for the things that fans liked the best?
since filmed ST seems to be crapping out, abandoning the 24th century after a failed movie and a refocus on new eras in the TV versions, an animated, or CGI, or cross-genre interpretation like a comic or novel arc would probably clean up, if theyd bring it in house enough to make it relevant and hype the fans the right way.. and then, if they get the juices flowing (since the filmed material is stale, fan excitement could very well be generated by a really cool CGI or animated, not-intended-for-kids movie or TV special/series, that would lead into a new filmed version later)..
just a thought.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starbuck: So, in the absence of novel Trek leaking into filmed Trek, I say... Roll on a good development arc for the Tholians,
Absolutely.
quote:the Andorians,
Most definitely.
quote:the Tellarites,
Fabulous.
quote: the Orions,
Superlative.
quote:and of course our old friends the Gorn
Uhh...try watching TOS "Arena" again, and you might catch why this would be a decisively BAD idea.
-MMoM Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Oh my yes, pity the plight of the poor Star Trek novelists. So put upon! All they seek is artistic purity. Why, I bet they write those books for free! And, even if they didn't, there are a billion and thirty free Star Trek novels on the Web. They should just pay those authors and use their stories. Yes. I can't wait. The excitement is burning me up inside.
I'm not sure that it applies to novelists but I recall that there has been cases where TPTB decide not to use certain characters from earlier shows since it means that the scriptwriter who invented said character would have to be paid for every further episode in which they appear. One example of this is the reason why Voyager was helmed by Tom Paris instead of Nicholas Locarno, if you follow my meaning. Of course I could be wrong since my knowledge of literary legislation is very scant indeed.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I really doubt that's the case. Characters made for a publisher/ company are the property of that publisher/ company. Not the writer. If writers got any royalty share from characters they created while working for a publisher then the writer (for Hulk I believe) that came up with Wolverine (later of the X-Men) would be a multi-millionaire and Marvel would be paying through the nose for all it's charcters. Same thing for Trek. I can see characters/stories being caught up in legal snares between the publisher and Paramount, but no writer has rights to a character. Just think of the writer that made the Borg....
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I suppose it depends their contract.
I've actually just read something that seams to support what I had previously heard. Take a look at this interview at TrekWeb and look for the word Kziniti.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, as I recall, McNeil was hired because the casting sheet for Paris read "A roguish sort, kind of like that Locarno fellow from TNG," and, ala Poochy, it was taken seriously.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Kziniti are a whole seperate can of worms. They are the property of a (Niven?) Science Fiction writer that was friends with Roddenberry and allowed him to use his creation in a TAS episode. Niven was not working for Gene: he had already written several novels in the Man/Kzin Wars storyline. It was more like a crossover than anything else and nobody got screwed or anything. Lovecraft and his pals did the same thing while refrencing things that happened in one another's stories as if they were events that actually happened. It's one of the reasons the Chuthlu mythos works so well. Stephen King and Peter Sraub still do this. When Gene used his pal's characters there was no "Corperate Mentalaty" like today....and I doubt either realized the fame their creations would bring them. Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
The whole Known Space timeline, including the Kzinti - try fitting THAT into the Star Trek timeline. 8)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well I reckon that the Tzenkethi are the Kzinti. A formal name of their homeworld/space. AND to not incur copyright problems.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Why, because they both have a "z" as their second letter and an "i" as the last? Yes! They're clearly the same! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Welp - it's closer than anything else, isn't it?
Plus that's not the only TAS reference in DS9.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Why, because they both have a "z" as their second letter and an "i" as the last? Yes! They're clearly the same!
Nope, because "Tzenkethi" is nearly an anagram of "The Kzinti".
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Oh, you mean the Mirak (Obscure Starfleet Command reference)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
quote:Why, because they both have a "z" as their second letter and an "i" as the last? Yes! They're clearly the same!
Nope, because "Tzenkethi" is nearly an anagram of "The Kzinti".
Of course! Now I see that the Talarains, Telerites, Talaxians and Tamarians are all the same species too! How could I have been so blind? Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Ohhh Ohhh...I wanna play!!
....and not only was Tuvok, Tuvix...but he was also: Tumek, Tumak, Trajok, Trag'tok, Tovin, Torat, Toran, Toral, Tora Ziyal, Tomar, Tomin, Toman'torax, Thopok, Terek, Telak, Telaka, Tebok, Taris, Tanis, Tamar, Tamal, Talar, Takar, Sybok, Sutok, Surat, Surak, Spock, Sovak, Sovol, Soran, Soral, Sorad, Sopek, Solok, Sitak, Satok, Sarek, Sakar, Saavik, Vorik, Vorin, Vinod, Vinka, Verin, Verad, Varel, Rakal, Rekar, Renar, Revok, Kaval, Kavel, Klavek, Koral, Koran, Korax, Korob, Korok, Koval, Kovat, Kovin, Kurak..and many many more names that can be made from: The Writers Guide to the 13 Letters of the Star Trek Alien Alphabet.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Man! That actor has some range! ....good makeup too!
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
*plonks Jason and FG*
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Guys? You're showing your newbie-ish-ness...
The Tzenthkethi was indeed an anagram for "The Kznti" (the 'i'-less spelling is a was used in some publications such as Star Trek Maps)that was used by the production staff of DS9 because they couldn't use the actual name.
It's really too bad that the legal kinks of the situation are too scary for Paramount to deal with, as I've always heard that Niven has stated he has no objection to the Kzin being used on Star Trek. But that's just hearsay, I guess.
I've considered writing some fanfic about Trek's version of the Earth-Kzin wars, even drew some concept sketches of spacecraft, etc. Maybe one of these days I'll dig that project up again for Ex-Astis-Scientia or something...
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
if "newbie-ish-ness..." means "sarcastic" and "sarcastic" means "good job pointing out that wonderful collection of Tuvok-wannabes", then I am guilty as charged.... Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
Okay, here's that info on Pocket Books and Trek novel contracts. It's taken from Margaret Wander Bonanno's website, here.
quote:Usually when a writer sells a novel to a publishing company, the copyright is issued in the writer's name. In other words, while the writer has given the publisher the right to publish the book, the words themselves still belong to the writer. Those words cannot be changed by anyone without the writer's permission.
Under a work-for-hire contract, the words belong to someone else. In the case of Star Trek novels, they belong to the movie studio which leases the rights to a publishing company, which allows a writer to borrow the characters and the settings from their very successful "property" - i.e., a certain TV/film series of our acquaintance - in order to write a novel. Once the novel is finished, the writer not only has to put the characters back where she found them, but the words she has written no longer belong to her, but to the movie company.
quote:Can I use your characters? If it's Trek characters you mean, then the only answer is, they're not ours. Everything in a Trek novel is "work for hire", which means it belongs to Paramount Pictures, lock, stock and barrel: check the copyright notice. No matter that a given writer creates the characters: Paramount owns them...and permission to use is therefore not the writer's to give. But thanks for the thought...
So that's from whence I derive the train of thought that Paramount could, if they wished, do a story with the Hamalki, or John Ford's Klingons, or any other literary race.
As for the Gorn... well, I think they'd be a better adversary with modern costume/makeup and effects technology. I gather the poor guy in "Arena" was running around the California desert in a rubber wetsuit, hence the stiff gait.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Good documentation of facts there. ...and MMOM, if i'm a newbie at over 500 posts then I doubt I'll ever be a veteran in this decade. Face facts: humanoid cat creatures in pink jumpsuits should not be incorperated into Trek. Ever.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
...Unless they're female. Mrowl.
Mark
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
The Kzinti admittedly suffered from one thing: a low budget. I'll try to source it later, but as I recall, the animators wanted to make them distinct from anything else on the show. Thus, they were given shades of pink and purple as their primary equipment and costume tones because that's pretty much all that was available (ditto for the tribbles, I think - easier and cheaper to paint 'em all pink than have so many different shades); they also lost some distinctive colour patterns in their fur.
As with the live-action episodes "The Trouble with Tribbles" and "Arena", "The Slaver Weapon" borrowed from other popular sci-fi. However, unlike the Robert Heinlein and Frederic Brown stories used as the basis for the TOS shows (which were authorised by the writers in question), Larry Niven brought his own creations across. I often think it's a pity he didn't get the chance to produce followup episodes - imagine what Trek would be like with the Kzinti running around, or a ringworld... (and I think one of those exists on the 1980 Star Trek Maps, too!)
As I recall, the Kzinti remained strong in fandom, despite the apparent "decanonisation" of TAS, and are still featured in the Starfleet Battles line of gaming products.
Can anyone add anything to this..?
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: ...Unless they're female. Mrowl.
Are we talking Lt. M'Ress types here, or the three-breasted table dancer cat lady from The Final Frontier? Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
FG and Jason: My comment was itself a sarcastic one. By "newbie-ish-ness" I meant (in fun, of course, not seriously) your apparent ignorance of the facts behind Spikey's statement. (Namely, the behind-the-scenes story that I illuminated.)
Starbuck: About the Gorn, I was referring to the fact that "Arena" made it quite clear that the Cestus III attack was the first contact the Federation had made with them. Therefore, they are not suitable candidates to appear on Enterprise.
I seem to remember hearing that whoever did the colors on the Kzinti suits and ships for TAS was color blind, and thought that they were going to appear grey rather than pink. Don't know if that's really true, though.
Mark's post reminds me also that it might be cool to see Caitians on ENT.
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
This conversation sure has deviated from tholians, ships and technology....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
From Ex Astris Scientia: Remarkable background fact: Pink is a color routinely used in animation, but was certainly not fitting for the Kzinti uniform and their ship. Being color-blind, director Hal Sutherland failed to notice that until it was too late.
Anybody now what the Kznti ship from TAS looked like? The one from Starfleet Battles is total ass.
Mabye the Tholians wiped out the Kzinti (as I deftly drag the topic, kicking and screaming, back to Tholians). Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
For all the best in Kzinti Police Vessels, go here, you'll be impressed, I promise! Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"humanoid cat creatures in pink jumpsuits should not be incorperated into Trek"
*pictures the Kilrathi in bright pink military outfits*
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Go here, you'll be impressed, I promise!
Even worse than the cardboard box look of the SFB ships! Awful.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartmaniac: "humanoid cat creatures in pink jumpsuits should not be incorperated into Trek"
You don't mean that catgirl from ST:V, do you?
Hmm... Catgirls. Furries anyone?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
But female Kzinti aren't sentient... And what's the concrete proof that "Arena" was first contact with the Gorn?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
There is nothing concrete that it was first contact, nor is there anything even subtle that would indicate the contrary. I just believe that the Gorn is a facet of Trek-lore that does not need to be explored, as we previously have established that there is plenty of other fruit on the vine for the writers to pick from.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...yeah. Like the Borg. I just really really wanna see the Telerites done well.
..and I want Porthos to come back. "Dogs don't know it's not bacon!"
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
So do I, but aside from owning tons and tons of freighters they havent really built up anything on them yet. Don't they have somewhat of an ornary demeanor similar to the Andorians?
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Starbuck: About the Gorn, I was referring to the fact that "Arena" made it quite clear that the Cestus III attack was the first contact the Federation had made with them. Therefore, they are not suitable candidates to appear on Enterprise
D'oh. I've not seen the episode in some time, so I concede to your superior knowledge. Then again, the NX-01 has already encountered the Ferengi, and we already know that first contact with them was made by... Jean-Luc Picard! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: So do I, but aside from owning tons and tons of freighters they havent really built up anything on them yet. Don't they have somewhat of an ornary demeanor similar to the Andorians?
It could have been just that one little piggy with a bug up his butt. DS9 showed us some really bitchy Federation Ambassadors too. ....and there was the one that Sisko punched..... ...and Luwaxana Troi. She's no gem either. In fact, now that I think of it, all the ambassadors shown seen to be childish, whiney jerks.
I think I recall a Telerite engineer from one of the Trek novels, but that's not....wait for it.... ...wait for it... ...."canon". Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
So what's in your personal canon? No, wait, don't tell me...
...canonballs Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well....gee, Starbuck....I don't hardly know you and you want to see my personal canon...
Sorry, I keep that one solely for the ladies.
...and the Tholians, of course.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The Enterprise is dead in space: stopped cold during her pursuit of an alien raider by mysterious forces. And I have been somehow whisked off the bridge and placed on the surface of an asteroid, facing the captain of the alien ship. Weaponless, I face the creature the Metrons called a 'Gorn': large, reptilian." ... "I am engaged in personal combat with a creature apparently called a 'Gorn'." -Captain Kirk, "Arena"
Obviously, Kirk had never heard of them before. And the bridge crew looked rather surprised when the Gorn captain first appeared on the viewscreen. But, otherwise, there's technically no proof that it was a first contact. Only that the Enterprise crew weren't familiar w/ them.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
But, then again, one would suspect that the Enterprise crew would be briefed on all lifeforms known to the UFP at the time. What with being on the edge of known space and stuff.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye the Gorn made initial First Contact with the UFP inly yo be dismissed as obscene callers: ...all that heavy breathing and hissing over the channel....
I'm hoping we don't see the Gorn....but betting that we do in the next sweeps week. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
OTOH, it would be great to see the Gorns done with current VFX. I hope they come up with a really good excuse to show them Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Considering the nature of one of the long-running story threads in the show, there's no reason any Gorn shown would have to be from the 22nd century.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or what about a lone Gorn working with some Orion/Nausicaan/Random pirates.
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
Remember the big bald Nazi mechanic in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"? I had a concept for a similar character when I wrote my "Hidden Frontier" script, and I can see how Enterprise might do something similar. I wrote in a big, silent Gorn as dumb muscle, in the middle of a gang of Orions and Andorians.
What d'you reckon? A Star Trek crime caper... an Andorian boss, a group of Orion thugs, a big silent Gorn to be the "muscle", and a renegade Hamalki engineer doing the safecracking... call it... "Nebula's Eleven" Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'll pass on George Clooney as an Andorian. ...although david warner would make a pretty cool Andorian. ....so would the bad guy from the first Die-Hard movie.
....and Wil Wheaton as the Gorn. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I think they should have Louie Anderson play the first Tellerite Captain we see......hilarity ensues, and as a result, it comes to be known as the BEST episode of Enterprise EVER....soonafter Hell thaws.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that "Arena" shouldn't be considered first contact w/ the Gorn. I'm sure it was intended to be. I'm just saying that, if ENT does screw that up, it isn't irreconcilable.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Woah there. That's just too many negations in one post. It's messing with my brain!
Posted by Starbuck (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I think they should have Louie Anderson play the first Tellerite Captain we see
I have no idea who that is... but I had an actor in mind who'd make a good Tellarite. Unfortunately, the Borg assimilated him first, and he's now Ernest Seven of Borgnine
[EDIT]: Minor edit for spelling... some days I just get "rented fingers syndrome"
[ March 02, 2003, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: Starbuck ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that "Arena" shouldn't be considered first contact w/ the Gorn. I'm sure it was intended to be. I'm just saying that, if ENT does screw that up, it isn't irreconcilable.
TSN Translation: Arena should be considered first contact with the Gorn. This fact is strongly implied, and is what was intended. However this ambiguity still leaves room for Enterprise to "actually" make first contact with the Gorn.
Excellent, no negations...here you go Harry Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starbuck:
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I think they should have Louie Anderson play the first Tellerite Captain we see
I have no idea who that is... but I had an actor in mind who'd make a good Tellarite. Unfortunately, the Borg assimilated him first, and he's now Ernest Seven of Borgnine
Any American (US-ian and Canadian) who knows who Louie is would probably agree with me that he is already the human equivelant of what a tellerite is Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
If I may get back onto a topic that's pertinent to this forum...
I saw that Bernd has put up the ENT Tholian ship as a separate design. Obviously the ship is a lot more detailed, but I've been thinking of it as the same as the original TOS one, and chalking it down to effects. It's kinda like the difference between the D7 battlecruiser (heck, even the 1701 itself!) we saw on TOS and the Greg Jein model from "Trials and Tribble-ations." Same ship, just more detail.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No. I think that even though the Tholians are a bit behind the Federation by Kirk's age, they still would have upgraded their fleet. It is also possible that the Tholian ships in TOS are only small patrol crast on the edge of Tholian space and the ships from Enterprise represent a much more powerful class of ship.
...or they could be from the future (as pointed out). Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
While the designs are quite similar, the "Future Tense" vessel is sleeker (more elongated) and more sharply angular than its TOS counterpart. I think it was this subtle re-sculpting of the overall lines of the design that Bernd used as a justification for calling it a separate one.
I think I agree. I did in fact notice the difference in the physical shape of the ships while watching the ep, as opposed to the Jein models from T&T, which were built as exact replicas of the originals with only the surface details being augmented.
-MMoM Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starbuck: Then again, the NX-01 has already encountered the Ferengi, and we already know that first contact with them was made by... Jean-Luc Picard!
And about 5 quintilli-billi-trillion other people, a fair few of whom were human.
Come on, if you can accept all that stuff we were told about the Ferengi from season 3 onwards and reconcile it with the oh-so-spectacular episode that is "The Last Outpost", I'm sure you can cope with Gorn in ENT.
Oh, and one thing about that whole "rights" issue. Wasn't there some talk about the DS9 people having to pay the writer of "Mirror, Mirror" when they started doing their mirror universe episodes? Talk about whether he owned the rights to it in some ways, or something like that?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Not sure about the Mirror Universe, but I do remember that the Tzenkethi were originally going to be the Kzinti from TAS, except that that name is owned by Niven.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Then I'm glad we never saw them. THe closest we ever need to see to a "Cat Person" were those horridly lame-ass aliens fueding with the sterotypical reptile men from TNG's first season. I'm sure somebody here can name them: and boy were they lame. ....I think thet were the first of the "T" aliens too!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Not sure about the Mirror Universe, but I do remember that the Tzenkethi were originally going to be the Kzinti from TAS, except that that name is owned by Niven.
It's like the 27th February all over again! And really, who wants to go back to that time, eh? Men walked around naked, cats ate dogs, and the great floods were upon us, causing a massive shortage in clean towels.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Was that before or after Timelord joined and the "Star Trek sucks threads" began to pop up here em masse? Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Oh, and one thing about that whole "rights" issue. Wasn't there some talk about the DS9 people having to pay the writer of "Mirror, Mirror" when they started doing their mirror universe episodes? Talk about whether he owned the rights to it in some ways, or something like that?
I don't know about that case, but that's possible. When I pitched some scripts to TNG in 1989, my agent told me that I was more likely than not to sell a script that didn't include characters or elements created for another episode, because the writer of the episode will have to get paid and possibly some credit.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Anticans and the Selay. The first "T*r*lians" were the plague-bearing Tarellians from "Haven."
Who may have been mentioned in Enterprise's "Singularity," come to think of it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ah. The Anticansssss and the Ssssselay. (at least that's what they sounded like when they spoke!) Two whole races of Cobra Commanders. Man they sucked. TNG would never survive today with shows like that in it's first season.
Thanks for the correction. I'd never want to remember these losers on my own. Say what you will about Enterprise: the plots are certainly no worse than TNG's first few seasons. Plus: No Betazoid "feelings of great joy". And they have a dog!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: The Anticans and the Selay. The first "T*r*lians" were the plague-bearing Tarellians from "Haven."
Who may have been mentioned in Enterprise's "Singularity," come to think of it.
Also, the mysterious corpse from "Future Tense" had some Tarellian DNA, I believe.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye his HMO didint cover the Plague.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
ACtually didnt we see some female-feline dancer/stripper-type alien in ST5:TFF?? She was in the bar at Paradise City, attacked Kirk and Spock and got thrown in a fish tank or something?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Yes, we did. Felinoids in Star Trek are a legion. Here's a partial list (canonically unconfirmed names in quotation marks):
-animated "Caitian" Lt. M'Ress from TAS -animated Kzinti from TAS "Slaver Weapon" -animated Vedalan from TAS "The Jihad" -live-action "Caitians" from ST4 -live-action unknown from ST5
"Caitians" have catlike faces, hands and feet, two side-by-side breasts (or at least two visible ones, on the single female we saw, but those uniforms leave little to imagination) and a long, prehensile tail. Live-action versions seemed to be males, and preferred their fur long and ragged. All three specimen witnessed were man-sized.
Kzinti males have tigerlike, fanged faces but with winglike ears, and are larger than Homo sapiens, with heavily built upper torsos. Females are said to be nonsentient and were not seen.
Vedalans seem like generic cats although with large outer ears that have a somewhat humanlike mid-structure. And the one individual we saw had a really painful-looking slouch. Man-sized, it seems.
The unknown cat-dancer from ST5 had three breasts side by side, and was somewhat more heavily built than M'Ress, with more complex and more handlike paws and (I'm guessing) more humanlike legs if not feet. Could have been a sturdy Caitian, too, or a female Kzin. Anybody have good pics?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: ACtually didnt we see some female-feline dancer/stripper-type alien in ST5:TFF?? She was in the bar at Paradise City, attacked Kirk and Spock and got thrown in a fish tank or something?
Are people in this thread caught in some kind of weird temporal anomaly where they make comments that have already been made earlier on in the thread?
The Tzenkethi were going to be the Kzinti. Yes. And Tholians look a bit funny.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Where else have I made that comment?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Not you specifically. Someone else has already stated that.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hmmm...Guess I just dont have the time to scroll through 12 pages to figure that out, especially on this PoS modem I be visiting here with.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
[Oops]
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I have a piece of shit modem too, and I am really cool. If I can find time to do it, so can you, who are far more worthless and pathetic than me.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Burn. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Umm, as it seems we're reasonably secure from any further Tholian-related input here, what about moving to other threads?
No, I'm not gonna lock this one or anything. But it would be nice to have a moderator function that's the exact opposite of that "stick to top" star...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
PsyLiam is a no-good Tholian!
...there now you see? We've been on topic all along.... Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote: Nope, because "Tzenkethi" is nearly an anagram of "The Kzinti".
SO IT IS!!
Just one vowel out.
This could explain why they spell it with a silent T... I remember people here a few years ago were complaining that there was no need to give alien names silent letters, etc.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And these people were very silly and had far too much time on their hands.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Zip it crystal-boy. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I...what?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
LOL!
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Umm, as it seems we're reasonably secure from any further Tholian-related input here, what about moving to other threads?
No, I'm not gonna lock this one or anything. But it would be nice to have a moderator function that's the exact opposite of that "stick to top" star...
Or, translated roughly, "Don't talk about non-starship things here, you'll scare the nerds away!" 8)
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
it's not a helmet! it's my superheated crystalline head!
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Looks like a demon possessed zit coming out of your neck to me.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
How did they actually make that? Was it a guy in a suit? Or just psychedelic sixties VFX?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Puppet, I think.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Puppet, I think.
I wish there was a photo of it.
Better still, I wish Mike Minor was still alive so he could explain it to us. *sigh*
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well if it was a puppet - one would presume it might still exist or parts of it - or there was at least a behind-the-scenes photo of it... or at least production sketches!!
Who designed it? Wah Chang?
It looks like it has a beak.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
If we haven't seen production sketches of Tholians by now, we will never, ever see them. Because they don't exist.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Says in the Encyclopedia Deux that the few shots on the Enterprise main viewer which the above photo is from used visual effects and a puppet designed by Mike Minor which was the facted head (or helmet) of Commander Loskene.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
d'oh
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I always miss the start of the tholian web. Did Loskene move at all? Did his mouth move? If that is a mouth/beak.
If the purple-y colour is the 'wall' behind him... that pattern seems to go through him (I.e. can we see through him - is he translucent?)
Also is that a seperation between the head/helmet and the rest of the body/uniform? Or a crease/facet.
Andrew
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The freaky colors could have been a result of poor reception on the Enterprise's part (lots of hard rads on the Tholian ships IIRC. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It wasn't radioactive. It was just very hot.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Did the puppet move or did it's mouth/beak move/line move?
Also if they prefer such heat you can infer things about their homeworld... What was the temperature? Was it hot enough that liquid water couldn't exist on the surface of the planet?
Could they be silicon based or another element-based life forms? Nitrogen based?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"It wasn't radioactive. It was just very hot."
Well, heat is radiation, technically...
And I don't think the puppet demonstrated any articulated parts, but I could be wrong. I think I only ever saw the episode once.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ah, but, to get all crazy lingual, radioactive does not (at least, according to a free online dictionary, and I suppose information is worth what you pay for it) simply mean "radiating energy," but rather the specific kind of energy associated with atomic decay!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: TSN Well, heat is radiation, technically...
Not quite, unless you mean infrared/thermal energy/radiation.
Quick definitions:
The astronomical definition of radiation is a form of energy transport consisting of electromagnetic waves traveling at the speed of light.
The biological definition of radiation, as well as conduction, and convection are all processes in which an object gains or loses heat, or in other words, the way heat travels from or through one object to another. So technically it isn't heat, its the tranportation of heat...
OR
Radiation is when an object gains heat through exposure to intense radiant energy or to any surface that is warmer than its own surface temperature.
Conduction is a direct transfer of heat between two objects in contact with each other.
Convection requires moving air or water to transfer heat, involving the process of conduction.
[NOTE - this has been heavily modified because this was getting too severely complicated to explain in a manner fitting to the above posts.]
[ March 15, 2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: AndrewR Did the puppet move or did it's mouth/beak move/line move? Also if they prefer such heat you can infer things about their homeworld... What was the temperature? Was it hot enough that liquid water couldn't exist on the surface of the planet?
The puppet moved very slightly...like from side to side, but barely noticable.
Also, I believe that it was stated that the Tholian ship in Enterprise has an internal temperature in excess or at least 200� but not in a specified heat measurement system (�F, �C, K).
If it was 200�C, which is 2x boiling, then water would not exist in liquid form on their homeworld (as it would be evaporated).
If it was 200�F or 93�C then it is possible that water exists on their homeworld, but extremely near to boiling (212�F = boiling).
If it was 200K (or -73�C or -100�F) then everything would be frozen, which does not seem to fit what we allready know about the Tholians.
[ March 15, 2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Almost certainly centigrade.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And in the fine Flare tradition of nitpickery, it really shouldn't be �K, but just K.
The internet is crazy useful. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
What on Earth are you talking about?? Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Almost certainly centigrade.
Hmm, I wonder what keeps tholian silk from not burning up/melting. This also suggests that in order for them to be in a "normal" human tolerable environment like the tholian ambassador visiting DS9, for example, they would need to wear some type of environmental suit, like the Breen.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, yes. Such has always been the common assumption.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Almost certainly centigrade.
Hmm, I wonder what keeps tholian silk from not burning up/melting. This also suggests that in order for them to be in a "normal" human tolerable environment like the tholian ambassador visiting DS9, for example, they would need to wear some type of environmental suit, like the Breen.
I've always assumed tholian silk to be some sort of personal by-product!! and/or self-produced! Like Slurm.
I wonder what would happen to a Tholian on Breen or vice versa!?! Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
the universe would implode
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Not quite, unless you mean infrared/thermal energy/radiation."
Well, yes, that is what I mean.
"Ah, but, to get all crazy lingual, radioactive does not (at least, according to a free online dictionary, and I suppose information is worth what you pay for it) simply mean 'radiating energy,' but rather the specific kind of energy associated with atomic decay!"
Yeah, but he just said "rads", which refers to radiation. You're the one who said "radioactive".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Okay, just checkin' Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Almost certainly centigrade.
Hmm, I wonder what keeps tholian silk from not burning up/melting. This also suggests that in order for them to be in a "normal" human tolerable environment like the tholian ambassador visiting DS9, for example, they would need to wear some type of environmental suit, like the Breen.
Why? If Tholians are scilcon based, tempature extremes (or possibly hard vaccum) would not bother them until reaching near their body's material threshold. (either combusting or shattering) If Data and Lore (androids specifically constructed to mimic humans, but with scilicon brains) could easily survive and function in space, I would think a Tholian could handle the same.....at least on a temporary basis and the temperate climate of DS9 would be no big deal. Tholian ships hay be hot (not radioactive as I previously erred)to provide sustainance and crystal growth/regeneration. Or Tholians don't bother to shield their spacecraft interiors from the excess heat generated by their engines. Not much need of an A.C when you're a xzenephobic crystaline species prahaps.
...and I doubt Tholian silk is excreted from Tholians themselves. Particularly if they are crystaline/scilicon based. Pottery from Betazed may come from that planet, but likely does not come out of the Betazoids' themselves. (god willing) I'd imagine "Chinese Silk" is referred to as "Earth Silk" (how many merchants know all the continents and former countries on the various planets they buy merchandise from? Who'd have that kind of time?). Tholian Silk may be so revered for it's resistance to tempature extremes.
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