Edit **can someone change the title to more than **3** runabouts docked at DS9** (Andrew)
Looking at the cap from "Visionary" - it seems as if there are at least 4 (I reckon 6 if you include the various angles in other caps) runabouts at DS9. This pic definately shows 4 Runabouts leaving/escaping DS9's destruction.
[ June 22, 2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Topher ]
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
I seem to recall mention in the first episode "Emissary" that there were at least three Runabouts sent to DS9 when Sisko took command. I don't see why they couldn't have upped the number at a later date/time. How many pads are there? I'm thinking six, but don't recall for certain. The only pic I can immediately find seems to support this, but isn't the best where a detailed shot is concerned.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
They've never explicitly said there were more than 3 at any one time, (other than the mention of 3 in the series opener). The station itself has 6 elevator landing bay/pads. So at some point they got another Runabout. It wasn't mentioned because a story didn't call for that kind of specific information.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I recall thinking that one was the Defiant when I first saw the episode, but it doesn't look like it from there.
Some could be runabouts that are dropping off people, rather than runabouts that are actually stationed at the station.
For about the first four series, there were only ever 3 runabouts mentioned by name. When one was destroyed, one replaced it, but there were never any additions. I think about late season 4 though, a new name appeared, implying that there were now at least 4 runabouts.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If my ship list is correct then the following Runabouts were known to be stationed at DS9 in 2371.
RIO GRANDE, ORINOCO, possibly the VOLGA and the RUBICON. I'm not certain if the Rubicon was assigned before or after that episode and I'm not 100% sure that the Volga was assigned in season three or four. If not the Rubicon then it's possible that the SHENANDOHA was around that early, the registry number seams low enough. The same goes for the nameless (NCC-73918).
So yes, it is possible that there were more than three Runabouts at DS9 in the third season, in fact it could be as many as six! But four or five seams more likely.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
^ Did the Ganges turn up later then?
The number of pads doesn't even limit the number of runabouts to six, since the bays themselves have space for more than one ship. Four seems a reasonable number though.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Phlox: ^ Did the Ganges turn up later then?
The Ganges was destroyed in "Armageddon Game."
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I think it may have to do more with the camera shots/timing rather than the possibility of more than 3 runabouts. I say this becasue I meshed those two different angles together when really there was a interior shot inbetween, so it may possibly be a bit misleading, but the possibility still exists.
Anyway, it was a bitch to do at the time, and even moreso to dissect in retrospect (considering all the times names weren't given to the runabouts shown) but here is what I have about the intros and destructions of the runabouts:
1st Season:
Rio Grande - Introduced in "Emissary"
Yangtzee Kiang - Destroyed in "Battlelines"
Ganges - Introduced in "Emissary"
2nd Season:
Orinoco - Introduced in "The Siege", replaces the Yangtzee Kiang
Ganges - Destroyed "Armageddon Game"
Mekong - Introduced in "Whispers", replaces the Ganges.
3rd Season:
Mekong - Destroyed in "The Die Is Cast"
Rubicon Introduced (but unseen) in "Family Business", replaces the Mekong. [Kira told Sisko that O'Brien wanted him to inspect it. Sisko told Kira he wanted to name it the 'Rubicon'. Kira remarked, "You know at the rate we go through runabouts its a good thing Earth has so many rivers".]
4th Season:
Rubicon - First seen in "Hippocratic Oath" (first canon use of term: "Danube Class")
Orinoco - Destroyed in "Our Man Bashir"
Yukon - Introduced in "Sons of Mogh", replaces the Orinoco (?).
Volga - Introduced in "Body Parts", possible 4th runabout.
Season 5:
Yukon - Destroyed in "By Infernos Light"
Season 6:
Shannondoah - Introduced in "Change of Heart", replacement for Yukon (or unnamed destroyed in "The Ship"), Destroyed (presumably) in "Valiant".
Season 7:
Gander - Destroyed in "Penumbra".
And lets not forget the scores of ships that were seen or destroyed and names were never given.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
Oh, I always thought the Ganges had lasted longer. Darn. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Was the ship in Timescape given a name in the script?
One would assume that the worlds 5 largest rivers or the largest rivers on each continent would be used on Runabouts first?
U.S.S. Murry-Darling
The Nile and The Amazon and the Mississippi are are three I'd expect to be early runabouts.
The Zambeze, The Irrawaddi, the Tigris, The Euphrates, The Tibre, the Thames, the Colorado and the Murray-Darling would be a few more. I'd say these before the Gander which is a relatively small river isn't it?
And I'm sure O'Brien'd like to have a Boyne.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Given that the Class Ship is USS Danube, it would appear that the river naming-scheme applies to the whole Class, and so some of those large rivers are presumably used by runabouts at different stations and on large ships.
You also have to take into account how good the names sound. If I were Sisko, I'd much rather call a ship USS Rubicon than USS Murray-Darling, purely because it sounds better.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
But if Sisko gets to choose the names, then who's to say the commander of SB 123 wouldn't choose to name her runabouts after Vulcan winds?
Perhaps Sisko was the first customer of the type (which indeed is a novelty item, according to O'Brien in "Paradise"), and thus got to name USS Danube - which, in the end, wasn't delivered to him, or was lost in an offscreen incident. Or then the class was supposed to be named after Strauss walzes, or after M'Wabanga Danube, the famous warlord-microbiologist from Kenya, and Sisko was just clueless.
The likeliest scenario: If users get to name their runabouts, there probably exists a database of available names to prevent 47 craft from being named "USS Hot Rod" simultaneously. And that database might contain the suggestion/outright limitation that Earth river names be used.* Sisko just picked one to go with the factory-painted registry number.
Timo Saloniemi
* No, "USS River Phoenix" cannot be used. Adm. Nechayev already got the dibs for her VIP transport.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
you have to choose from their list of names of the pre-printed decals.. custom ones woulda cost extra
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: M'Wabanga Danube, the famous warlord-microbiologist from Kenya
I eagerly await this in book form, Timo.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm sure it's a commander's perrogative to name the ships that serve as his auxilliary craft - Picard, for example, indirectly named the Calypso by way of Patrick Stewart. I'm sure however that some admiral would be rather pissed if Sisko went and renamed the Defiant the USS I'm Gonna Kick Dominion Ass With This Thing. There should be an order of authority in these things.
This explains why there would be shuttles with the same name as starships, and how the various Enterprises would always get the coolest names - I'm sure that there MUST be more than one shuttle called Galileo at the same time.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I can accept that shuttles would double up on names... but I have a hard time accepting that runabouts do. Personally, I think Sisko's line about getting to name the ship was a big mistake on the writer's part. They didn't really think that one through.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think pretty much everyone can believe that. But we still gotta rationalize it.
Mark
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
For that matter, Sisko could have very easily researched the name from the starfleet starship database the night before and had very easily had a name picked out from a preappoved list of available names. That isn't so hard to swallow.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Given that Sisko worked at Utopia Planitia for several years, I think it's reasonably to assume that he was well aware of the Danube naming scheme, with or without a database.
Hell, he probably knew the project leader and decided to keep his tradition of naming them after earth rivers as a sort of personal courtesy, or private joke.
Other Captains and Admirals in Starfleet might not have been so accommodating.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In the tradition of "Hell, it might even be"...
...That Sisko was responsible for creating the Danubes himself. There is an amazing amount of customizing going on with starship auxiliaries - there are more mothership-specific designs than shared ones. The Danube could be a "pet project" out of hundreds or thousands of similar ones, something Sisko fancied doing, perhaps as a masterpiece during his apprenticeship.
I'm not saying Sisko did all the work described in the DS9 TM by himself. I more suspect that he had the authority to order a "custom job", to a slightly greater degree than Picard had the authority to order customized bridges for his starships, or perhaps customized shuttles and land vehicles...
And just like the Defiant, the Danube was a piece of work that was adequate for Sisko from the practical point of view, but very dear to him personally. Had Commander Benteen gotten the assignment, she would no doubt have ordered six Mount Kilauea class patrol boats instead of three Danube runabouts, with just as rational-sounding a request to Starfleet as the one Sisko submitted.
Such personal indulgence would be perfectly within the realm of possible in the society of wealth Sisko and Picard live in. And in the best traditions of a no-money society, the brainchild of one man would be freely available to others as well, if they found the Danube to their liking.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Personally, I think "runabouts get named by the person in command of them" sounds perfectly reasonable.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK going back to naming...
Rubicon v Murray-Darling.
I'm assuming that the largest rivers on Earth would be named first. And/or the largest on each continent.
So that's why the Murray-Darling would be an easy contender. Plus I'm sure an Australian Commander out there would be naming it!
1) Nile 2) Amazon 3) Mississippi-Missouri- Red Rock 4) Chang Yian (Yangtze Kiang) 5) Ob 6) Huang Ho (Yellow) 7) Yenisei 8) Paran� 9) Irtish 10) Zaire (Congo)
Nile - Africa Amazon - South America Chang Yian (Yangtze Kiang)- Asia Mackenzie - North America Volga - Europe Darling - Australia
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Personally, I think "runabouts get named by the person in command of them" sounds perfectly reasonable.
Not to me, it doesn't. Shuttles, sure, since they're solely auxiliary craft---but the Danubes are full-fledged starships, with U.S.S. names and NCC registry numbers.
So no, not unless the commander is acting in an official, authorized Starfleet capacity and the vessel is officially commissioned by them. With that caveat, I could accept it, but otherwise no way. It cannot be some informal "we'll call it such-and-such" process...
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I dunno about that Mmom, they may be starships, but they are not quite full fledged. They are primarily deployed on missions where using a fully-fledged starship would be a waste of resources, whereas a standard shuttle would be too small to cope. They moreso fit the genre of uber-auxiliary craft as there never seems to be shortage of them. It seems whenever one was destroyed in DS9, they seemed to mention the replacement within the next couple episodes. So there certainly isn't any shortage of availability, for Sisko/DS9 at least.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
As has been mentioned, runabouts may get registered like starships, but they don't seem to be used like starships. In my mind they definitely occupy a hazy middle ground.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:As has been mentioned, runabouts may get registered like starships, but they don't seem to be used like starships.
Actually this much of my last post:
quote:'They are primarily deployed on missions where using a fully-fledged starship would be a waste of resources, whereas a standard shuttle would be too small to cope.'
...came directly out of the runabout article from "ST: The Magazine", so that much of it carries some modestly canon weight about their 'fledgity'.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Just to toss in... Back in DS9's first season, I came up with a Runabout for my Trek writing to include in the adventures I was working on. I named it Orinoco. Then I saw "The Siege". I was annoyed. So I changed the name of the Runabout to Rubicon. Guess what. So I am publicly stating that I claim Saint Lawrence. So there.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Only the Rio Grande survives the series. It was Sisko's runabout in the pilot episode so mabye it's good luck or blessed by the Prophets or something.... I recall Kira having a smart-ass remark about "It's a good thing Earth's got a lot of rivers". Earned her a stern look from Sisko.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Was that a stern look!?!?!
Cap?
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
stern or bow?
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Only the Rio Grande survives the series. It was Sisko's runabout in the pilot episode so mabye it's good luck or blessed by the Prophets or something...
Indeed. I've always thought that the Rio Grande may very well be blessed or somehow protected by the Prophets. The fact that it was the first ship to discover the Temple of the Prophets must hold some significance.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Only the Rio Grande survives the series. It was Sisko's runabout in the pilot episode so mabye it's good luck or blessed by the Prophets or something...
Indeed. I've always thought that the Rio Grande may very well be blessed or somehow protected by the Prophets. The fact that it was the first ship to discover the Temple of the Prophets must hold some significance.
...or it's that the special effects dept. didn't want to go to the trouble of relabeling the shooting miniature, so by default the Rio Grande was destined to be around forever...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, the same stock footage has stood in for almost all the runabouts, so...
Perhaps it lies in the marketing department more than anything else - can't sell little toys or models of a ship from a current show if it's all blown up.
Mark
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
While watching the "The Die is Cast" episode, I was wondering if there was any on-screen evidence for the destruction of the Mekong.
Ok, a runabout was lost to the Dominion, but was it really the Mekong?
Was there any mentioning of the runabout's name in the dialog of "The Die is Cast" or "Improbable Cause"?
Is it save to say that the Mekong was lost due to the fact that its name was never mentioned again in later episodes?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Perhaps it lies in the marketing department more than anything else - can't sell little toys or models of a ship from a current show if it's all blown up.
Maybe, except my recollection of the AMT model was that it had three sets of labels, one for Rio Grande, one for Ganges, and one for Yangtzee Kien (however that was spelt). And we all know what happened to the other two.
And this is a good time as any, but what is the correct way to pronouce Rio Grande? I always thought you said the "e" at the end, as in "Rio Grand-eh", but apart from Nog in one episode, all the characters say "Rio Grand". Are they right? Is this a silly American corruption? What? What?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
It's pronounced "Grand". It's a funky Texas thing.
And it was the Yangtzee Kiang, I think.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Maybe, except my recollection of the AMT model was that it had three sets of labels, one for Rio Grande, one for Ganges, and one for Yangtzee Kien (however that was spelt). And we all know what happened to the other two.
Yeah, the AMT kit provided the three original names for decals. Also, in the late 90s AMT released the USS Yamaguchi...about the most obscure starship model Trek ever had. Many people didn't know that Yamaguchi was the Wolf 359 Ambassador Class. It was never mentioned in the show, it was only behind-the-scenes info that revealed it's origin. Those models still sold.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect:
quote:Maybe, except my recollection of the AMT model was that it had three sets of labels, one for Rio Grande, one for Ganges, and one for Yangtzee Kien (however that was spelt). And we all know what happened to the other two.
Yeah, the AMT kit provided the three original names for decals. Also, in the late 90s AMT released the USS Yamaguchi...about the most obscure starship model Trek ever had. Many people didn't know that Yamaguchi was the Wolf 359 Ambassador Class. It was never mentioned in the show, it was only behind-the-scenes info that revealed it's origin. Those models still sold.
I thought the Yamaguchi was different decals and mod parts included with the Enterprise C kit, and not a separate kit.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
I think there were two releases, one was the Enterprise-C with extra pieces for the variant and the other was a fibre optics one with Yamaguchi and Excalibur decals. Something like that. I bought the non-fibre optic one and it had the second shuttlebay and some extra lifeboats. I don't think it would have made a proper variant though, because there was only the Ent-C style secondary hull.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Yamaguci was a mod on the Enterprise C mold but it was only released as a fiber optic kit in clear (blue-sih) plastic. The kit runs about $65 on ebay at any given time, although all the mods can be bought seperately (thanks to the thoughtful garage industry) to upgrade the "C" into the newer refit.
At least the kit is accurate! The STTM made a horrible jumble of the Abassador schematics. I've to a ton of Ambassador refit pics if anyone needs them. Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
Phlox is right. The Yamaguchi was a separate release with Excalibur decals. The only difference with the Ent-C kit and the Yamaguchi kit was the deflector piece. (and the fact that the Yamaguchi had a lighting kit and was cast in clear plastic.)
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Weren't the placement of both the nacelles and the saucer different on the Yamaguchi kit? I know they're not accurate for the E-C kit.
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