I know theres nothing canon on this but I still think it's worth discussing. During a mission on SFC3 there is a scripted event which includes the following information about a Norway Class ship-
Do you think this is accurate? It is also said to have launched 17 life boats. Thoughts?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Given its size and assumed era of shortly pre-TNG, I'd assume something at most half that.
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
And now, the St.John Formula for determining starship crew values.
Cv=((A�15)�L�4))-P+2
where:
--A=the crew value of an similar approximate-sized vessel of type in the same design era; --L=the number of available lifeboat hatches; --P=25% of (L�4)
So.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:P=25% of (L�4)
Is that supposed to mean something, Shik? Because L * 4 * .25 = L. It's just a longer way to express the constant anyway. Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Minus, not times, foo'.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm: I know theres nothing canon on this but I still think it's worth discussing. During a mission on SFC3 there is a scripted event which includes the following information about a Norway Class ship-
Do you think this is accurate? It is also said to have launched 17 life boats. Thoughts?
So.... 708 people onboard. Assuming similar lifeboats as those on the GCS and friends, with maximum capacity of 6 per craft... 102 got off that ship. Makes Titanic's percentages look good, me thinks.
But yeah, I'd say 1/3 that number. She doesn't strike me as a particularly roomy ship, especially with her NAVDEF arrangement.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: So.... 708 people onboard. Assuming similar lifeboats as those on the GCS and friends, with maximum capacity of 6 per craft... 102 got off that ship. Makes Titanic's percentages look good, me thinks.
LOL!
I'd say the maximum crew number on the Norway is about 50-60.
I'd say it'd be comparable to the Defiant x 1.5 or something
The thing is WHAT does that ship do?
I reckon the Sabre is another Borg Weapon ship like the Defiant... maybe the Norway is as-well? So you wouldn't want to have too many people on that ship - that didn't really need to be there.
Maybe it's 'shovel nose' is for ramming!?!
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
708?
Read. 354 people. The breakdown adds up to the personnel count.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Oops. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd say 300 is a large number for the ship's crew compliment. 220-250 sounds better for a ship smaller than an Intrepid but still more than five times the habitable interior volime of a Defiant.
I like this ship as a light cruiser with it's phaser array steming from a specialized deflector array: possibly huge amounts of power can be funneled through the deflector as one of those "deflector based weapons" Geordi mentioned on the drw=awing board in BOBW? It's the only way to explain why the ship has no phaser strips anywhere shown (althgough I added a Q-Torp launcher and phaser strips to the ventral side of my own Norwary class model.) Who can make us a nice Norway MSD? I challenge you I say!
I agree that the Sabre is very likely a defiant-styled warshiip with minimal: amenities and a crew of 40-50 (the excellent MSD supports this theory).
THe Akira, of course, should be hauled away AS garbage! Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The Norway, being yet another oddball shape that doesn't see use outside the Dominion War (or, in fact, outside First Contact!), could be a special combat model that has no peacetime use whatsoever. No matter how "peaceful", Starfleet is bound to have *some* of those.
My favorite interpretation? The "First Contact" battle was the first to involve these oddly shaped ships (Norways, Steamrunners, Sabers) because they were warships amassing for a counterattack against the Dominion. Specifically, they were warships of very limited ship-to-ship combat value (as shown by their futile resistance), and thus probably optimized for planetary assault.
The Steamrunner certainly has the biggest shuttlebay in Trek history, in relation to overall size. And the second-least armament. An obvious LPD-type vessel! Norway could be a troop carrier, with assault barges normally stored between those aft booms, and with basically no ship-to-ship armament or other normal starship features. The bow greeblies could hide a badass planetary bombardment cannon with limited field of fire. The ship flies towards a planet bow first, protecting her precious barges with the bulk of her armored, almost porthole-free forward hull, and firing her sole weapon...
A troop carrier justifiably could have a "crew" of thousands, even if about 50 of that was dedicated to actually operating the ship. And it would be obvious why we'd never see solo Norways (or Steamrunners) out in deep space. If the Steamrunner is the classic LPD/LSD vessel, the Norway could be the Newport class fast LST - a curiously shaped special type built in low numbers, in only one class, and abandoned as impractically specialized.
Here's a challenge for the Creative forum: design the assault barge that goes between the aft booms... Wanna stack eight to twelve of those there, or just one? Aerodynamic or not? Embarking is via the booms - how to disembark? Design your own nose art or warpaint!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I've got my Impulse Engine between those booms! The CGI model has no impulse engines at all so I placed mine between the booms where the ship's hull would shield it. I have seen a few models (physical fan made kind)that have two HUGE impulse engines on either side of the booms, but I placed shuttlebays there: That could serve as your assualt ship.
It's possible that the Norway is a diplomatic cruiser or that hidden in the ship's hull are pulse phasers that were inoperative during the final attack on the Cube.
Of all the FC ships, this is the closest we have to a true tabla rasa. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think we're really warranted in making any assumptions about the Norway based on its lack of hull detail. It's that way because it was always meant to be in the far background. Presumably, if it had ever been shown close up, someone would have gone back and added in phaser strips, transporter arrays, impulse engines, and the assorted other components that make up a Star Trek ship. (Though, I guess, not necessarily, considering the Nebula.)
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
There were two Norways in the battle and both survived. On the other hand, the Steamrunners were massacred in great numbers. I counted at least ten of these ships as destroyed.
Another pecularity of the Norways-they weren't active before the Enterprise-E led the fleet. They were outside the battle area. When the Enterprise-E made her charge, both Norways joined in and opened fire. Based on the visual evidence, the Norways are designed as support vessels with limited weaponry and great speed. They were able to clear the destructive blast of the exploding Borg cube.
The Norways are probably not a successful class and were limited to a few missions. This would account for their low visibility.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: [QB] There were two Norways in the battle and both survived. On the other hand, the Steamrunners were massacred in great numbers. I counted at least ten of these ships as destroyed.
So mabye the Norway's main phaser has a longer range and they were able to stay out of the Borg's immeadiate range. Or they're just tougher starships.
quote: Another pecularity of the Norways-they weren't active before the Enterprise-E led the fleet. They were outside the battle area. When the Enterprise-E made her charge, both Norways joined in and opened fire. Based on the visual evidence, the Norways are designed as support vessels with limited weaponry and great speed.
The Norway's were very likely part of a fourth or fifth wave of starfleet ships that engaged the Cube during the three hour running battle toward sector 001.
quote: The Norways are probably not a successful class and were limited to a few missions. This would account for their low visibility.
Why do you say that? 99% of starfleet is science, diplomacy and exploration: we never saw another Norway because it's not a combat hog like the Akira. That means it has more mission diversity, not less. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Will this suffice? I made this about three years ago (more than that, actually) by cutting and pasting from the Voyager and Enterprise-E schematics that were available in the "Captain's Chair" CD. Not the greatest resolution, but it's interesting... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not bad! You've got your deflector where your bridge shoud be though.
...now if someone would make me a nice MSD of my USS Merrimac I could be truly happy in life....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I forgot about the Norway nacelles when Amasov was doing his nice art-work/schematics... but I take back what I said about it being part of the 'Borg-threat weapons program' - I believe it was a precursor or design-mate of the Intrepid Class series. It has 'tracks' across the top of it's nacelles with two 'divot' points - where it looks as if the ship can have two nacelle configurations a la Voyager.
Also it has the 'new' wedge/x-axis ovoid "spoon"/"shovel" design that Voyager has.
The Intrepid class was supposed to have the variable geometry warp-nacelles added as a feature late into it's design. I'm guessing the Norway had it applied at the same time.
Considering "Force of Nature" was in 2370 and Voyager premiered in 2371 - it gave it a little over a year to have the moving Nacelles to be incorporated into it's design.
Did the Intrepid have moving nacelles when it was launched - or was it the Voyager that had them first?
Then the Sovereign Class was launched in 2373 (I think) by that time they seemed to have solved the warp-pollution problem.
If new Intrepids were built - would they have the moving nacelles? Would they have them fixed in one position? Would that be up or down?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If there's a "failed design" in Starfleet, it's the Intrepid. They were no use in the War and we've only seen them assigned to diplomatic duties or chasing petty Maquis. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er...admittedly, being a hero ship skews the statistics a bit, but there's nothing to suggest that the Intrepid class isn't a rousing success.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm only pointing out people's odd notion that the Norway is a failure because we've not seen more of it....just like the Intrepid. ...and that movable nacelles on anything is a baad idea and I disgard it for the Norway.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:I'm only pointing out people's odd notion that the Norway is a failure because we've not seen more of it....just like the Intrepid.
You could say the same thing about the mighty Sovereign....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That would explain the refit, would'nt it? Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Of?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"the mighty Sovereign.... "
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
That refit was overkill though... would you want a torp launcher behind you on the bridge... or even on Deck 1?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They put a torp launcer on deck 1!?! Stoopid. Data could have jumped out of the bridge and ridden a torp to the Scimitar a la "Dr. Strangelove" (I hope that was the movie).
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: They put a torp launcer on deck 1!?!
Nope. Both sets of new saucer torp launchers look like they're on or adjacent to deck 3.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: That refit was overkill though... would you want a torp launcher behind you on the bridge... or even on Deck 1?
Could be worse: look how close the Southerand's torpedo spread is to the bridge in Redemotion Pt.II . One good jolt to the ship's ventral side and the ship would torp itself!
The AGT Enterprise has two giant torp launchers right behind the bridge....another baaaad design idea.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The AGT Enterprise has two giant torp launchers right behind the bridge....another baaaad design idea.
Ah, but then again that ship never really existed now did it, or so the government would lead you to believe?! Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Then there's the B'rel class BoPs. With their size, their bridge is sitting right ontop of the torpedoe launcher. All the Captain has to do is to open a trap door below some incompetent bridge officer, and they drop right into the launcher, all ready for their final journey into space.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In my dreams that's the punishment for any Klingon quoting Shakespeare.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I'm only pointing out people's odd notion that the Norway is a failure because we've not seen more of it....just like the Intrepid. ...and that movable nacelles on anything is a baad idea and I disgard it for the Norway.
I've always wondered why people insist that all the FC ships were warships made especially to fight the Borg. (In case nobody noticed there were a few Oberths in that fleet too)
I've always thought of the Norway as container tug/freighter ala Ptolemy, with it's aft cavity and moveable nacelles it's seams ideal to me. Plus the fact it doesn't appear to be especially well armed.
In fact out of the four I think the Saber and the Akira are the only ones with any really significant tactical capability (yes I do buy the 15 torp launchers). As for the Steamrunner, it also seams to be less than heavily armed and with it's single hull it could be the mid-24th century equivalent to the Oberth, albeit a little bigger. Perhaps a long range surveyor, or maybe even a geo-terraformer like the U.S.S. Strata?
It's not like Starfleet is going to be particularly picky with what ships it chooses to throw a borg cube that's getting into Earth orbit, I'm sure that by the time the Cube reached Sol 90% of the Typhon fleet had already been wiped out.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: [QUOTE] It's not like Starfleet is going to be particularly picky with what ships it chooses to throw a borg cube that's getting into Earth orbit, I'm sure that by the time the Cube reached Sol 90% of the Typhon fleet had already been wiped out.
SO right! Three hours is a looong damn time to be engaging the Borg. I'd imagine that many Akira and Galaxy class ships were part of the initial wave sent to intercept the Cube. Probably a couple of new Defant class ships too. (that's what they're made for after all!) The USS Soverign might well have been destroyed during the battle as well: we never knew what ship the admiral was on. Steamrunners and Norways were probably among the final ships sent in as a last-ditch effort when the cube entered sector 001. The Akiras and Sabres might be the only ships from the first wave tough enough (or fast enough, in the Sabre's case)to avoid destruction.
Something else never addressed is how Starfleet took down or circumvented the Borg static warp field (or whatever passed for Borg shields in BOBW). Possibly the Steamrunner and Norway have prominent deflectors as a new variant on Geordi's deflector weapon. I can't see standard photon torpedos doing any damage while the field was in effect. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: we never knew what ship the admiral was on.
Surely this is explicitly called out in the film? "The USS Whatever has been destroy." "Now I have the power!" My memory is no good tonight, though.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The line was more like "Sir, the Admiral's ship has been destroyed." No name was specifically mentioned.
The Admiral's ship was supposed to be a new design called the ENDEAVOUR, with the intention that we'd see it's destruction during the battle. It was later ditched in favour of showing the Defiant when Worf was written into the script. However I belive there was an ENDEAVOUR mentioned in the radio chatter but it's arguable as to wether or not the Nebula-Class ship seen in the battle (after the line about Hayes's ship) was the ENDEAVOUR NCC-71805 - supposedly the lone survivor of Wolf 359 - or the LEEDS NCC-70352.
If it was the ENDEAVOUR then the Admiral's ship could have been called anything (perhaps that's where the Hiroshima comes from?). Personally I'd much rather have the old ENDEAVOUR survive both Borg attacks than it be a new design, just to prove that a ship doesn't have to be called Enterprise in order to survive impossible odds. ;-)
Asside from that, if the ENDEAVOUR was the lone survivor of W359 then it would make perfect sense for it to be present during the Typhon incursion, especially with the Enterpise relegated to patrol duty.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"has been destroy."
Apparently I was thinking of Star Trek: Zero Wing.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
INSERT CAPITAL LETTERED MEME HERE !!
I am on the ball.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
YOU ARE A VERY SILLY MAN !! Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: Then there's the B'rel class BoPs. With their size, their bridge is sitting right ontop of the torpedoe launcher. All the Captain has to do is to open a trap door below some incompetent bridge officer, and they drop right into the launcher, all ready for their final journey into space.
har. Klaa did that in one of the early DC volume 2 comics, written by Peter David
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