quote:

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Posted by Rick Sternbach:
Well, I found some data. Actually, found the chart. I haven't read this whole thread to see if anyone else found it, but here are the ships:

USS Eagle, 1701-refit type silhouette, NCC-956 <-Edited
USS Potemkin, refit silhouette, NCC-1657
USS Excelsior, Excelsior-type silhouette, NCC-2000
USS Endeavour, refit silhouette, NCC-1895
USS Emden, refit silhouette, NCC-1856
USS Ahwahnee, refit silhouette, NCC-2048

The graphic I have says "Initial Operations." I've forgotten if there was more to the show'n'tell.

Rick

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quote:

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Mike Okuda responded:

Thanks for the note. If I recall correctly, the charts visible on film/video listed only ship names and registry numbers. One can probably glean some class designations from the ship icons in the diagrams.

I don't have the original art handy (I think it's archived on Syquest disks, which I don't have the ability to read, even if I could find the disks themselves), but I recall giving the info to Bjo Trimble, and I'm pretty sure she used most of it in her revised Star Trek Concordance.

I might note that some of the ship registry numbers came from Greg Jein's interpretation of the starship chart in Commodore Stone's office in "Shore Leave" (TOS). Other registry numbers came from Franz Joseph's Starfleet Technical Manual or his Starship blueprints. In still other cases, the ships and/or numbers did not come from either source, but were consistent with some fleet status charts I did elsewhere on the Enterprise-A in Star Trek VI. (In other words, there's something that just about everyone will disagree with, but I also hoped that there would be at least something that almost everyone would agree with.)

I should also point out that I prepared several charts for the rescue briefing scene, and that not all of them ended up in the final cut of the film. I don't recall which ones were used, or which ones ended up unseen. I do seem to recall that there was at least one chart that had quite a number of registries - mostly, I recall, from FJ's work - that ended up unused.

-Mike

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So, Bjo Trimble's Concordance likely has all the information we'll ever see on the matter of the Operation: Retrieve charts. However, it's possible that there are errors. Certainly, not all of the information has been brought to light, as indicated by Mr. Okuda's commentary above.

So, now we just need to get some insider information on the charts seen on the E-A bridge in ST:VI and then we'll have about as much info on ship names and registries as we can suck out of that movie.
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 

quote:

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So, now we just need to get some insider information on the charts seen on the E-A bridge in ST:VI

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IIRC this information is also in the Concordance.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
..."starship chart in Commodore Stone's office in "Shore Leave" (TOS)", eh?
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
"Court Martial," not "Shore Leave"...LOL!

Well, it's interesting that even Mr. Sternbach offered the idea that the silhouette icons are just generic images rather than direct representations. This would make sense from Starfleet''s point of view, perhaps, because when you put ever-smaller icons on the chart, they're hard to spot. That's why most charts -- for today's military that I've seen, anyway -- just have placemarkers on the map itself, and then have a table on the side with the actual informative silhouettes to proper scale.

(Besides, this was a Presidential briefing... I doubt that the President was all that concerned about whether West wanted to send refit Constitution-class cruisers or a handful of ancient Paris-class scouts instead... )

Finally, from the Art Department's point of view, the just used the regular icon because no one would EVER get close enough to see it, anyway... at least, not unless a group of obsessed fans pester Okuda and Sternbach about it nearly 15 years after the fact...

So me, I'm sticking with my original assertion that the ships are of different classes. The Emden, for example, could easily be a Miranda... and depending on your opinion of the registry scheme, the Ahwahnee could be either a newly-built Excelsior, or else a new-build Constitution-class refit (or Enterprise-class ) from the 2270's (post-TMP).
 

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
Well, the Encyclopedia already seems to agree that Endeavour and Eagle are Constitutions, as taken from the chart, so I don't see why Ahwahnee or Emden can't be added.
 

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Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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So, now we just need to get some insider information on the charts seen on the E-A bridge in ST:VI

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IIRC this information is also in the Concordance.

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quote:

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So, this information is listed separately in the Concordance? Or is it just lumped in to a "this information for ships appeared on both Operation: Retrieve charts and on an E-A bridge display"?

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It's in one of the other "Op. Retr." threads...a lil diggin' will get ya there Griff...

quote:

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USS Eagle, 1701-refit type silhouette, NCC-956
USS Potemkin, refit silhouette, NCC-1657
USS Excelsior, Excelsior-type silhouette, NCC-2000
USS Endeavour, refit silhouette, NCC-1895
USS Emden, refit silhouette, NCC-1856
USS Ahwahnee, refit silhouette, NCC-2048

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Ho-Hum. So really what here is so groundbreaking? The Emden and the Ahwahnee? Hardly the Holy Grail we seek. Personally I find this whole topic rather disappointing. Hardly any beans were spilled. Indeed, I would have certainly expected more out of the allegedly "musical fruit", the old board game, Chaquita or Mr. Sternbach than this....
 

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Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
 
OK I think I saw that, FG, but went thru all those old threads pretty quickly and likely just assumed it was more of the Operation: Retrieve info. Thanks for pointing that out, tho.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Oh I wasn't trying to be rude...I just know I've read it before somewhere in a thread that someone had defined which ships were mentioned in which display. Unfortunately I dont have the time like I used to-to find it.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Here we go, Griff, I even made it all pretty for ya:

quote:

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• OR=Operation Retrieve
• SMA=Starship Mission Assignment list on an Enteprise monitor
• Current assignment in parentheses:

Ahwahnee NCC-2048 SMA + OR (deep space exploration)
Challenger NCC-2032 SMA + OR (deep space exploration)
Constellation NX-1974 SMA (certification tests)
Eagle NCC-956 SMA + OR (colony resupply mission)
Emden NCC-1856 SMA (neutral zone patrol)
Endeavor NCC-1895 SMA + OR (deep space exploration)
Helin NCC-1692 SMA (scientific survey ship on neutral zone patrol in sector 21290)
John Muir NCC-1732 SMA (upgrade at Starbase 24)
Kongo NCC-1710 SMA (neutral zone patrol)
Korolev NCC-2014 SMA (diplomatic mission)
Lantree NCC-1837 SMA (carrying colony supplies in sector 22858)
Oberth NCC-602 SMA (deep space exploration)
Potemkin NCC-1657 SMA + OR (scientific survey)
Republic NCC-1371 SMA (neutral zone patrol)
Scovil NCC-1598 SMA + OR (astronomical research)
Springfield NCC-1963 SMA + OR (neutral zone patrol)
Whorfin NCC-1024 SMA (deep space explorer on neutral zone patrol)

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However, the Emden doesn't seem to jive with what Sternbach revealed (as in not on the OR chart) and the Excelsior is missing...
 

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Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
 
Thanks, FG! I appreciate it. And I didn't think that you were being rude earlier, I really just couldn't find it. At the time, I was also a bit pressed for time, so couldn't be bothered to research it again.

Anyhow, do appreciate your taking the time to post that!
 

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Posted by Captain Serek (Member # 1038) on :
 
If Mike Okuda can ever access his old Syquest disks and perhaps convert them into a CD, the the Holy Grail can be seen and drooled over. I am thinking Syquest to Zip disk to CD as a possibility but I am sure that has been thought of already.
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Serek:
If Mike Okuda can ever access his old Syquest disks and perhaps convert them into a CD, the the Holy Grail can be seen and drooled over.

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Or we ask Mr. Sternbach to scan it.

quote:

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Well, I found some data. Actually, found the chart.

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Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
 
*edit*

duped info from another poster's reply...I HATE being late to the threads sometimes...
 

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Posted by Face (Member # 418) on :
 
Hi! Does any one have a picture of the Operation Retrieve chart, because there are a few ships that Rick didn't mentioned, like the USS Challenger, USS Scovil, and the USS Springfield.
 

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Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
 
Watching the History Channel (some WW II navel battle), it suddenly occured to me, that this chart is like the map in the show. It shows the countries, general tactical movement for the ships, and generic icons for battleships, cruisers, and carriers, and airplane and radar ranges. By the ship icons, where their names and designations. In the Operation Retrieve chart, everybody that needed to know, would already know what the ships where and what their capabilities where. The icons would really only need to be an easy reference to where the battleships and cruisers would be.

I can just imagine some ensign having to search the Starfleet Database for a clear printable icon for the starship Ahwahnee, in under five minutes.
 

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Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
 
of course, who, in 1991, could have predicted the advent of Google or the .PDF file format.

Star Trek is truly prophetic !!
 

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Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
 
Some things about the Enterprise monitor list just don't make sense to me.

The USS Constellation is still a prototype in 2293, even though the Hathaway was launched in 2285.

The Lantree is already doing cargo-hauling work. It made sense in 2365 because she was so old, but here she's younger than some ships pulling Neutral Zone Patrol.

Sector 21290? 22858? Bit high, considering that the Neutral Zone also contains sectors 14 and 15 (Star Trek II), and the highest TOS sector listed in the Encyclopedia is 39 (Tholian Web).


I guess some of the production people had their heads stuck in TNG mode. I'm sure that these discrepancies could be explained away with enough wriggling, but I wish they'd just been a little more careful in the first place.


Marian
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
I wonder if Col. West maybe 'sexed-up' his chart. Made it look like they were ready to deploy in 45 minutes. . . 8)
 

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Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
 
lol; Mind you his presentation didn't begin with "Yes, well, I mean, You know, look..." Unlike a certain PM's testimony...

Personally I'm in the generic symbols camp. Just because I like the idea of multiple classes going in .
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheWoozle on September 03, 2003:
Watching the History Channel (some WW II navel battle), it suddenly occured to me, that this chart is like the map in the show. It shows the countries, general tactical movement for the ships, and generic icons for battleships, cruisers, and carriers, and airplane and radar ranges. By the ship icons, where their names and designations. In the Operation Retrieve chart, everybody that needed to know, would already know what the ships where and what their capabilities where. The icons would really only need to be an easy reference to where the battleships and cruisers would be.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan on July 28, 2003:
However... can we automatically assume then that EVERY ship MUST be a Constitution since it's got that icon? Might Colonel West have used a generic icon for the medium cruiser-type ships (Constitutions and smaller) and the special Excelsior icon for the heavy cruiser that would be the anchor of the fleet?

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I believe I already said that.

I might also point out that the Excelsior is vastly larger than the Constitution, the Miranda, or any other ships that might be used in the operation, plus would also likely be the flagship for the mission -- all deserving special notice, while all other ships get generic icons. And you also don't want to have really small icons, which would be tough for the poor president (with his antique glasses) to see from across his expansive office.
 

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MarianLH:
The USS Constellation is still a prototype in 2293, even though the Hathaway was launched in 2285.

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USS Defiant was still a prototype even after Valiant had been launched, and probably after Sao Paulo would have been launched.

USS Galaxy was probably still a prototype even after Yamato, Challenger, and Enterprise had been launched.

Anyone want to bet that the Eagle was meant to be NCC-1956 all the time, and they merely typoed or there was a miscommunication somewhere?
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
I'm all for MinutiaeMan's suggestion. The alternative is just too disturbing.
 

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Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The359:
Anyone want to bet that the Eagle was meant to be NCC-1956 all the time, and they merely typoed or there was a miscommunication somewhere?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Timo:
"I demand to hear what is going on. Who is Number One? *Where* is number one?"

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That's not important. You are Number Six.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Doncha mean "You are, Number Six"?

As far as my fantasy universe is concerned, the Mirandas were originally converted from TOS-era ships like many fan sources suggest. Since those fan TOS ships didn't have rollbars, I see them as add-on features that may not have been added in each and every individual conversion process. While seemingly "modular", they are probably still in practice permanent additions.

The Lantree registry still remains the lowest known Miranda one, both in canon and fan material. I thus like to see the podless class as the most direct descendant of the earliest variant in the family. Perhaps operational experiences later dictated adding of podded extra weaponry. (Also see the two really convoluted entries on TOS and Movie Mirandas in the Hitchhiker's Guide to UFP Starfleet, you-know-where...)

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
Well, in my fandom universe, the Miranda is as old as the Constellation in Sternbach's.

I was just going to update a few things. As it looks now, I may have to add two new Constitutions, although I have been reluctant so far.

Aside from the aggravated Constitution inflation problem, how can we deal with a Constitution NCC-2048? Has a new ship just been built a few years prior to the movie? So far we had rather the problem of registries being too low.

I like the idea of symbolic depictions. Why would the President be interested in what exact class the ships are?
 

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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
 
Why not, we had Entente with 2120 in 2272, Excelsior with 2000 in 2285, I don't see why a 2048 Ahwahnee isn't possible. I'd guess she was built sometime in the late 2270s or early 2280s.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, the only reason the Excelsior was so late was because it was a protoype, and highly experimental with its traswarp drive, so it took a lot longer to produce. The Ahwahnee probably predates the Entente, given the registries. Not necessarily, but likely.
 

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