posted
Over at Trek BBS, Rick Sternback says the Operation Retrieve Chart ships and silhouettes are as follows:
USS Eagle, 1701-refit type silhouette, NCC-956 USS Potemkin, refit silhouette, NCC-1657 USS Excelsior, Excelsior-type silhouette, NCC-2000 USS Endeavour, refit silhouette, NCC-1895 USS Emden, refit silhouette, NCC-1856 USS Ahwahnee, refit silhouette, NCC-2048
posted
Well... that's definitely very interesting news.
However... can we automatically assume then that EVERY ship MUST be a Constitution since it's got that icon? Might Colonel West have used a generic icon for the medium cruiser-type ships (Constitutions and smaller) and the special Excelsior icon for the heavy cruiser that would be the anchor of the fleet?
I *really* don't like the idea of all those ships being of the same design, personally...
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posted
I can understand your concern MinutiaeMan, but then I am thinking that if they were to stage a rescue mission deep inside Klingon space they would want to bring their fastest, hardest hitting, and most modern, through refits, starships because they would be surrounded by hostile forces. They would probably have to fight their way into, and then out of Klingon territory. At this time, the Excelsior and the refit Constitution-class starships were the best that Starfleet had.
What did West say, "Frankly sir, we could clean their chronometers."
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I don't think it's a matter of "obliterating the Klingon Empire". I don't recall anyone saying that. All they were going to do is shoot in, rescue Kirk and McCoy and shoot their way back out. Not like they were rushing all the way to Quonos or anything.
BTW, I'd like to clarify what Mr. Sternbach actually said in the TrekBBS thread:
quote:Posted by Rick Sternbach: Well, I found some data. Actually, found the chart. I haven't read this whole thread to see if anyone else found it, but here are the ships:
USS Eagle, 1701-refit type silhouette, NCC-956 <-Edited USS Potemkin, refit silhouette, NCC-1657 USS Excelsior, Excelsior-type silhouette, NCC-2000 USS Endeavour, refit silhouette, NCC-1895 USS Emden, refit silhouette, NCC-1856 USS Ahwahnee, refit silhouette, NCC-2048
The graphic I have says "Initial Operations." I've forgotten if there was more to the show'n'tell.
Rick
This information that he found is most likely for the first stage of the assault, going by "Initial Operations". Possibly the first page of the Operation: Retrieve charts? He definitely hasn't given us everything and this shouldn't be taken as the definitive listing for the planned operation, IMO.
And Mike Okuda, thru an email response to Capt. Robert April, later says in the same thread:
quote:Mike Okuda responded:
Thanks for the note. If I recall correctly, the charts visible on film/video listed only ship names and registry numbers. One can probably glean some class designations from the ship icons in the diagrams.
I don't have the original art handy (I think it's archived on Syquest disks, which I don't have the ability to read, even if I could find the disks themselves), but I recall giving the info to Bjo Trimble, and I'm pretty sure she used most of it in her revised Star Trek Concordance.
I might note that some of the ship registry numbers came from Greg Jein's interpretation of the starship chart in Commodore Stone's office in "Shore Leave" (TOS). Other registry numbers came from Franz Joseph's Starfleet Technical Manual or his Starship blueprints. In still other cases, the ships and/or numbers did not come from either source, but were consistent with some fleet status charts I did elsewhere on the Enterprise-A in Star Trek VI. (In other words, there's something that just about everyone will disagree with, but I also hoped that there would be at least something that almost everyone would agree with.)
I should also point out that I prepared several charts for the rescue briefing scene, and that not all of them ended up in the final cut of the film. I don't recall which ones were used, or which ones ended up unseen. I do seem to recall that there was at least one chart that had quite a number of registries - mostly, I recall, from FJ's work - that ended up unused.
-Mike
So, Bjo Trimble's Concordance likely has all the information we'll ever see on the matter of the Operation: Retrieve charts. However, it's possible that there are errors. Certainly, not all of the information has been brought to light, as indicated by Mr. Okuda's commentary above.
So, now we just need to get some insider information on the charts seen on the E-A bridge in ST:VI and then we'll have about as much info on ship names and registries as we can suck out of that movie.
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quote:So, now we just need to get some insider information on the charts seen on the E-A bridge in ST:VI
IIRC this information is also in the Concordance.
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Well, it's interesting that even Mr. Sternbach offered the idea that the silhouette icons are just generic images rather than direct representations. This would make sense from Starfleet''s point of view, perhaps, because when you put ever-smaller icons on the chart, they're hard to spot. That's why most charts -- for today's military that I've seen, anyway -- just have placemarkers on the map itself, and then have a table on the side with the actual informative silhouettes to proper scale.
(Besides, this was a Presidential briefing... I doubt that the President was all that concerned about whether West wanted to send refit Constitution-class cruisers or a handful of ancient Paris-class scouts instead... )
Finally, from the Art Department's point of view, the just used the regular icon because no one would EVER get close enough to see it, anyway... at least, not unless a group of obsessed fans pester Okuda and Sternbach about it nearly 15 years after the fact...
So me, I'm sticking with my original assertion that the ships are of different classes. The Emden, for example, could easily be a Miranda... and depending on your opinion of the registry scheme, the Ahwahnee could be either a newly-built Excelsior, or else a new-build Constitution-class refit (or Enterprise-class ) from the 2270's (post-TMP).
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posted
Well, the Encyclopedia already seems to agree that Endeavour and Eagle are Constitutions, as taken from the chart, so I don't see why Ahwahnee or Emden can't be added.
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quote:So, now we just need to get some insider information on the charts seen on the E-A bridge in ST:VI
IIRC this information is also in the Concordance.
So, this information is listed separately in the Concordance? Or is it just lumped in to a "this information for ships appeared on both Operation: Retrieve charts and on an E-A bridge display"?
Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: So, this information is listed separately in the Concordance? Or is it just lumped in to a "this information for ships appeared on both Operation: Retrieve charts and on an E-A bridge display"?
It's in one of the other "Op. Retr." threads...a lil diggin' will get ya there Griff...
quote: USS Eagle, 1701-refit type silhouette, NCC-956 USS Potemkin, refit silhouette, NCC-1657 USS Excelsior, Excelsior-type silhouette, NCC-2000 USS Endeavour, refit silhouette, NCC-1895 USS Emden, refit silhouette, NCC-1856 USS Ahwahnee, refit silhouette, NCC-2048
Ho-Hum. So really what here is so groundbreaking? The Emden and the Ahwahnee? Hardly the Holy Grail we seek. Personally I find this whole topic rather disappointing. Hardly any beans were spilled. Indeed, I would have certainly expected more out of the allegedly "musical fruit", the old board game, Chaquita or Mr. Sternbach than this....
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posted
OK I think I saw that, FG, but went thru all those old threads pretty quickly and likely just assumed it was more of the Operation: Retrieve info. Thanks for pointing that out, tho.
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Oh I wasn't trying to be rude...I just know I've read it before somewhere in a thread that someone had defined which ships were mentioned in which display. Unfortunately I dont have the time like I used to-to find it.
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Hardly the Holy Grail we seek. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Personally I find this whole topic rather disappointing. Hardly any beans were spilled. Indeed, I would have certainly expected more out of the allegedly "musical fruit", the old board game, Chaquita or Mr. Sternbach than this....
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