I just read Bernts comments on the tellarite shuttle from "Bounty". I think I agree with him on that it�s probably the Alice-shuttle from Voyager redressed. But I distinctly remember from the episode, just when Archer and the tellarite were being attacked and descended into athmosphere, that I saw a topside schematic of the vessel! Anyone got a pic? Also, anyone got a bigger pic of the shuttle landed? I want to know how the model and cgi were modified.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What happened to the days when a 'major' race had some thought and care put into their ship's design and not just a re-jigging of an 'alien of the week' ship - which was itself rehashed out of something else, I'd reckon?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I think they should bring in another team to make new ships so that it doesn't interfer with the other work on the show and we'd get some new ones
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: What happened to the days when a 'major' race had some thought and care put into their ship's design and not just a re-jigging of an 'alien of the week' ship - which was itself rehashed out of something else, I'd reckon?
Even worse, the Tellarites were given no distinctive traits, very little backstory, and were basically Voyager-type Aliens-of-the-Week. I was not impressed.
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Well, in my opinion they have done good work on the andorians and the vulcans as far as the ships go. However, my main disappointment is with the klingons! Stupid reasoning with the ship-designs!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: What happened to the days when a 'major' race had some thought and care put into their ship's design and not just a re-jigging of an 'alien of the week' ship - which was itself rehashed out of something else, I'd reckon?
"Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon designs"?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
HA! A really good example.
THey need someone besides Eaves to design the alien ships: nothing against the man: I really like many of his designs, it's just that after a while, you can tell it's all coming from one designer.
Three artists would work well: whatever happened to Probert and Sternbach? Were they liberated from captivity or what?
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: "Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon designs"?
Funny - I'm watching that one on Sci-Fi right now!
B.J.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
To be fair, one would hope the modelling process would have improved steadily since TOS. I think Andrew's point was that the "thought and care" peaked somewhere back in the '90s and is going back downhill.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, in that case his point is a meaningless assertion.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Aren't they all?
In any case, "The Next Generation" was hardly this OMG-NEW-SHIP-DESIGN paradise that some seem to think it was. The Merchantman model as a variety of different ships, that v-shaped freighter kept turning up (Riker throws it into the sun in "Final Mission", for instance), and many other alien ships were used as other alien ships (that X-shaped one from the episode with the boy raised by aliens who then stabs Picard before throwing ice-cream at Wesley, or something). And I don't want to go crazy and use a "ferchrisake", but it took then 4 years to actually build contempory Klingon and Starfleet vessels, ferchisakes.
DS9 was equally guilty, unless half the alien races in the galaxy all bought their ships from the Wadi.
(I will now do a classic piece of Simon-backtracking and say that I don't necessarily agree with some of the points raised here. Specifically, that having more than one person designing ships would be beneficial. But I'm going to fall to my knees and start worshipping the almighty Andy "dustbuster" Propert, or Rick "flying toilet seat" Sternbach either.)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: To be fair, one would hope the modelling process would have improved steadily since TOS. I think Andrew's point was that the "thought and care" peaked somewhere back in the '90s and is going back downhill.
Yes, thanks TSN.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"a classic piece of Simon-backtracking"
I have a strange reputation.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:And I don't want to go crazy and use a "ferchrisake", but it took then 4 years to actually build contempory Klingon and Starfleet vessels, ferchisakes.
To be fair, the reason for this was because they didn't want to spend money making new Starfleet & Klingon ship models if the show wasn't popular & got cancelled after the first or second season. It also explains why we got reuses of movie models such as the Excelsior, Merchantman, BoP, etc., which realistically would have been out-of-date vessels in the late 24th century. Plus, they even used models from other shows & movies to save money ("V", "Night of the Creeps").
For the first three seasons, there were only three new main models built (sans the Ent-D), with their own specific circumstances:
The Stargazer: TPTB were going to reuse the movie Enterprise until Greg Jein decided to make a different model for it.
The Romulan warbird: the only reason why TPTB had to make a new Rommie model was because there was no Rommie movie model to reuse.
The Ent-C: Obviously they couldn't use an existing movie model for the C, so this had to be a newbuild.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
What about the Ferengi marauder?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The Ferengi were supposed to be the Big New Villain, so they could've decided to build a model for them. Alas, the Ferengi on TNG never did quite work.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Actually, if I remember correctly, they made 3 Ferengi Marauder models, of varying sizes like the E-D. And one where the shuttle came out of the bottom too.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Really? Wow, did that ever turn out to be a waste. And seems a bit overkill too, since the Ent-D only had two differently sized models at the beginning (er, didn't it?)
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I was only referring to Starfleet & the known adversaries at the time (i.e. Klingon & Romulan). And I'd never heard that they made three Marauders before. Are you sure about that?
Also, I had forgotten that Roddenberry didn't want Klingons in the new show at first, hence no new ship made for them.
I think there was only one ENT-D model at the beginning...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, there were at least two. The big 6 footer, and a much smaller one (two-foot, I believe). The small one was used for those shots where the ship looks...small. Y'know in the title sequence where the ship goes to warp? You know why the warp effect fills the screen as much as it does? It's because they replace the 6-foot model with the 2-foot one at that point. That's why all the lights disappear.
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Well, I like the ferengi marauder. Not only did it have a dropship, it could extend it�s neck and it had that weird extendable module on top as well.
So, noone can help me with my original question?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well it might not have been 3 - but there were at least two Ferengi Maruder models - like there were the two Enterprise models. The Third might have been the drop-ship.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Thank you very much Guardian! Is that really a redress of the Alice-shuttle? If so, it�s been heavily modified. Forward cabin looks a bit like it, middle section new, aft...I don�t know
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Why make a new model when you can modify an old one? Oh, sorry, I was thinking like Eaves...
Edit: I really shoudln't be Eaves-bashing here, since he's not the only one guilty of this.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starship Freak: Well, I like the ferengi marauder. Not only did it have a dropship, it could extend it�s neck and it had that weird extendable module on top as well.
The "transforming starship" idea is just .....fucking terrible. Every bit as lame as the Scimitar.
I'm really happy they never used that on the Marauder and disapointed we never saw the ship after TNG (because it was a cool design to look at even if TNG blew the ship's potential).
The drop ship idea was novel but for a ship as large as the Marauder, that "drop ship" would've been just fucking huge. At least 75-100 meters long.
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Actually, Bernd is arguing that they did use it in an episode, at least the neck-thing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm....I sure never saw those goofy "crab claw" disruptors slide forward though or the telescoping upper part.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"we never saw the ship after TNG..."
There was that VOY episode with the Ferengi and the geodesic fold and the thing. The second one. In season seven. I think. Someone help me. Now.
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
No, you�re right. Bernd only argues that the neck extended. But hey, I think starships that are "transformers" are kinda cool.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
With gimmick ships like Scimitar, the Prommie's split-combo reforming sillyness and Voyager's flapping nacelles, they're headed for a Power Rangers color-coordinated-combo-ship: mark my words.
...and it'll be your fault. Yours. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
They are cool if they exist in anime form. In the Star Trek universe...no no no no no.
And to be fair, it was a really, really, really bad episode in which the Maurader extended its neck, and it didn't make any sense at the time anyway(I only know what the hell was going on because I've read some behind the scenes stuff).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: They are cool if they exist in anime form. In the Star Trek universe...no no no no no.
Agreed: although even in anime, the SDF-1 transforming into an uber-robot is idiotic in the extreme.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
As opposed to all the other anime that makes perfect sense?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember the Marauder extending its neck... Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(The Voyager Marauder was a brand-new CG model, even, no?)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"With gimmick ships like Scimitar, the Prommie's split-combo reforming sillyness and Voyager's flapping nacelles, they're headed for a Power Rangers color-coordinated-combo-ship: mark my words."
Down with the Klingon Bird of Prey! Destroy the separable Galaxy class! Smash the Defiant's nose into little pieces!
Okay, so we never actually saw that last one, but still. The point stands that some quite well-liked designs had the same sort of stuff.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Maybe I've missed something, but I don't remember the Marauder extending its neck...
Aren't you suppossed to be some sort of walking encyclopedia of starship knowledge.
The Marauder extended its neck in "The Last Outpost". It was first season. It was stupid. It had Ferengi jumping and twirling their arms around like retards. It had Data making strange snide remarks on the bridge. It had a stupid sub-plot involving Chinese Finger Puzzles. It...was...crap.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
If you scroll down, Bernd has screencaps of the transformation here.
And there were plenty of other first-season TNG episodes that I found less likable than "The Last Outpost".
-MMoM Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
The effect of extending the neck of the Marauder was poor because virtually no one noticed it (only the step-by-step analysis shows that the ship wasn't simply tilted). That may have been the reason not to show it again.
Concerning the Tellarite vessel, something more imaginative would have been better for a race supposed to reappear. But better a modification of Alice than yet another Nenebek clone!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"With gimmick ships like Scimitar, the Prommie's split-combo reforming sillyness and Voyager's flapping nacelles, they're headed for a Power Rangers color-coordinated-combo-ship: mark my words."
Down with the Klingon Bird of Prey! Destroy the separable Galaxy class! Smash the Defiant's nose into little pieces!
Okay, so we never actually saw that last one, but still. The point stands that some quite well-liked designs had the same sort of stuff.
The (scout sized) KBOP having movable wings to land actually makes sense (as does the Galaxy seperation and even the Defiant's warhead to some extent) but adding in moving parts onto gigantic starships for nothing but a supposed "coolness factor" is dumb. The Scimitar would have been almost all internal machinery to allow those millions of tons of mass to transform like that. The larger the ship the less likely moving parts become (I have no issue with moving parts on small ships if it serves a function).
Goofy.
As to The Last Outpost, it did have one cool moment: the use of holographic displays during the briefing was neat (though seldom seen afterward).
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: The effect of extending the neck of the Marauder was poor because virtually no one noticed it (only the step-by-step analysis shows that the ship wasn't simply tilted). That may have been the reason not to show it again.
Indeed. That was almost 20 years ago now, and until it was mentioned in this thread I'd never heard of or noticed it, even when I was going through the episodes with an itchy pause finger while grabbing screencaps.
That blew my mind. I can't even tell what's moving where, exactly, but I'll check it out.
Posted by F.G. (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: "we never saw the ship after TNG..."
There was that VOY episode with the Ferengi and the geodesic fold and the thing. The second one. In season seven. I think. Someone help me. Now.
Yeah, it was "Inside Man".
But, nevertheless, it would have been nice to see some Marauders in some hopeless battle with the Dominion just for the shits-and-giggles effect OR at least as one of the zillions of reused ships seen over and over docked at DS9.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The (scout sized) KBOP having movable wings to land actually makes sense (as does the Galaxy seperation and even the Defiant's warhead to some extent) but adding in moving parts onto gigantic starships for nothing but a supposed 'coolness factor' is dumb."
You think the real-life reason for the Galaxy to separate was anything but "coolness factor"? Come on. They spent five minutes showing just that in the first episode. And almost never afterward. It was nothing but a gimmick.
And I don't see how "variable warp geometry" is any less of a valid reason for moving parts than the others. Especially the BoP. Why not just build the thing with its wings already far enough up to land?
" The Scimitar would have been almost all internal machinery to allow those millions of tons of mass to transform like that."
Well, the Scimitar was a little pointless. Note that I didn't bring it up. However, to be fair, the Romulans already have one ship design that's unnecessarily huge. If we assume they do that just to be intimidating, it's not overly surprising that they might come up with a ship that can "make itself look big" like a cat or something.
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