Hokay, so Archer's got the mojo of Vulcan's founding father stuck in his noodle. What else do we get to see tonight?
-Vulcans firing on Enterprise firing on Vulcans! The infamous D'Kyr is back again (with friends - wait for it, we'll be talking about this afterwards), but I only wish the older ships would appear again. So many of us liked 'em, there was nothing wrong with 'em, and yet they're no longer around and without explanation.
-The Enterprise shuttles get an upgrade - this is a fun one too. Waggle those fins!
-More fun with katras, and name dropping of everything Vulcan we've ever heard. The Forge is a little bit more used later on, but I'm hoping we'll see more of WHY they put the seat of Vulcan philosophy in the middle of a hellish wasteland.
-Hey, where did Spock undergo his heat in "Amok Time"? It's not in the Forge, is it? In ST3, Kirk and crew LAND their stolen Bird of Prey... Is it because transporting wouldn't make much sense? And if it didn't, then what was powering Spock's speak 'n' spell quiz machines in ST4?
-Touching upon T'pol's P'nar syndrome, which hasn't been mentioned since she got it. Will she be cured? Rumour is that it's going to be at least mentioned.
-While this probably belongs back in the previous episode review, you'd think that Archer would have brought an actual GUN with him, if energy weapons don't work. If he'd had a .303, the part with the Vulcan teddy bear would have been a lot shorter...
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Touching upon T'pol's P'nar syndrome, which hasn't been mentioned since she got it. Will she be cured? Rumour is that it's going to be at least mentioned."
If they did mention it, I didn't catch it.
T'Pau's attempted fal-tor-pan on Archer failed (she said that Surak had chosen to remain in Archer), so I guess we don't yet have a contradiction of the claim in ST3 that it had only been performed in "ages past" in legend. Of course, it could be that she just didn't hear about it. Because, presumably, they'll get Surak out of Archer's head eventually.
Was it just me, or was T'Pol's mother's death just... gratuitous pathos?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
PORTHOS DIED???!! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
No, he contains the memories of Surak.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Poor Porthos. I can't believe he's gone.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
- The Vulcan patrol craft reminded me of Flash Gordon.
- Was this the first time we saw the effect of an orbital bombardment with photon(ic) torpedoes?
- The war prior to the Awakening was a nuclear war. Surak suffers from radiation sickness, and we see several mushroom clouds in the background.
- Administrator V'Las is planning an all-out war with Andoria. Despite the fact that Andor and Vulcan signed a formal peace treaty two years ago (did we see that happen? Trip does mention that Archer helped in negotations). The way Soval explained that V'Las wants interstellar war made it sound almost like V'Las could be a Romulan...
- The other Vulcan ministers are unhappy with V'Las' actions, but are not actually stopping him.
- We get more juicy closeups of the Vulcan city. Presumably, this could be ShirKahr, if it's the capital. It has a Star Wars look to it.
- It struck me that we haven't seen a single black Vulcan yet. Did we ever see one besides Tuvok?
- NX-01 fought with a D'Kyr and two smaller craft. These looked suspiciously like the Vahklas, although I seem to remember that the Vahklas was of an outdated design.
- Starfleet is now headed by an Admiral Gardner. We don't see him.
- It was funny seeing T'Pol and T'Pau together. In a way, T'Pau could have ended up on Enterprise
- Wow. This episode had some heavy T'Pol moments. T'Pol really needs a good long vacation, or a proper kolinahr. I really wanted her to just completely break down and release all that stress. Life's not easy on her, it seems.
- The Mayweather, it speaks!
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Well, the vulcan patrol ships looks like a reuse of the old vulcan survey ship from the episode with T'Pols grandmother(?) and Earth in the 1950:s
The other ship was also a reuse, of Vahklas, as you say Harry. Also, the shuttle in the city, standard vulcan shuttle, seen before
Damn, all that reuse, why not the combat cruiser!
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
And, in case you haven't noticed, NX-01 can emit phaser blasts from... formation lights Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - Administrator V'Las is planning an all-out war with Andoria. Despite the fact that Andor and Vulcan signed a formal peace treaty two years ago (did we see that happen? Trip does mention that Archer helped in negotations). The way Soval explained that V'Las wants interstellar war made it sound almost like V'Las could be a Romulan...
I think that he was referring to "Shadows of P'Jem" - in which Soval participated at, so I'm not sure why Tucker had to remind him of it.
And I agree, I was thinking that all along that V'Las seemed very Romulan. In fact, Robert Foxworth seems to be somewaht type-cast as that sort of character...by that I'm thinking back to his role as Admiral Leyton.
quote:Originally posted by Starship Freak: Well, the vulcan patrol ships looks like a reuse of the old vulcan survey ship from the episode with T'Pols grandmother(?) and Earth in the 1950:s
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - NX-01 fought with a D'Kyr and two smaller craft. These looked suspiciously like the Vahklas, although I seem to remember that the Vahklas was of an outdated design.
As were Excelsiors, Mirandas and Ktingas. If its sound technology, I say go with it.
...next week we get to see Andor.
Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
Admiral Gardner? Say wasn't it Captain Gardner that the Vulcans wanted to Command the Enterprise originally? The same fella that Archer, Robinson and Duval played with in the NX program? He musta kissed butt and got a promotion instead of an NX
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by DoughBoy05: Admiral Gardner? Say wasn't it Captain Gardner that the Vulcans wanted to Command the Enterprise originally? The same fella that Archer, Robinson and Duval played with in the NX program? He musta kissed butt and got a promotion instead of an NX
No, Gardner was in the NX-Test Program, as well as Duvall, Robinson and Archer, no mention of his rank was mentioned at that time (meaning he could have already been a Captain or Commodore at that time). He was in the running for the first flight - not for the command of Enterprise, that was just Archer and Robinson (i think).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - It struck me that we haven't seen a single black Vulcan yet. Did we ever see one besides Tuvok?
His wife was black, I believe. (Because even though these are aliens and Star Trek is a show where prejudice has no place, we apparently still can't have black people married to white people.)
There were at least two black Romulans, if that helps.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Did Enterprise really fire from her formation lights? I remember her firing from points near the deflector, but those are where phase cannon hatches are.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Voyager really stuffed it when it came to Tuvok - Tim Russ played a VERY good Vulcan - he had many of Spock's mannerisms down-pat etc. I enjoyed when they started to look at Tuvok's past - but as soon as they started doing the right things with the character - they stopped.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Enterprise had fired its phase cannons from many places where phase cannons should not be.
Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
quote:Originally posted by DoughBoy05: Admiral Gardner? Say wasn't it Captain Gardner that the Vulcans wanted to Command the Enterprise originally? The same fella that Archer, Robinson and Duval played with in the NX program? He musta kissed butt and got a promotion instead of an NX
No, Gardner was in the NX-Test Program, as well as Duvall, Robinson and Archer, no mention of his rank was mentioned at that time (meaning he could have already been a Captain or Commodore at that time). He was in the running for the first flight - not for the command of Enterprise, that was just Archer and Robinson (i think).
I thought for sure Gardner was mentionned as an alternate for command of Pre-Ent....I bet you a shiny nickel or one quatloo
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Not without making too many suppositions.
Otherwise you are basing an aweful lot on Archer saying, "He wasn't alone" in response to T'Pol's comment, "Captain Robinson clearly wanted to command Enterprise as much as you did.".
Otherwise Gardner was only directly referred to as indicated in my previous post.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Admiral Forrest, T'Pol's mother. . . who dies next? Chef?
"Comb the desert!" - how could anyone ever use that line and expect it to be taken seriously?
I've never seen such an emotional bunch of Vulcans. Monomaniacal lunacy (V'Lass), petty jealousy (T'Pau). . . Is this just crap writing, or is it meant to be indicative of how Vulcans have strayed from the teachings of Surak?
Were the mods done on the Batshuttle the actual wings and so forth, or will they be standard from now on?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Remind me (I'm a masochist, after all): which forbidden places have phaser beams been emitted from so far?
Shi(r)Kahr was never intended to be the Vulcan capital AFAIK - but rather the Vulcan equivalent of a small midwestern town. At least this is the impression we get from the novels, and the TAS view of the city certainly doesn't impress upon us the feeling of a metropolis. The defining feature fo Shi(r)Kahr in "Yesteryear" is that it sits on the edge of the Forge, which would be a pretty silly place to build your capital on.
Spock's ritual combat in "Amok Time" was IIRC at an unspecified location, neither Mount Seleya (where the fal-tor-pan is said to take place) nor Mount Gol of "Gol Stone" fame (which supposedly is the preferred spot of the Kolinahru, but only in the novels).
Agreed that the inability to use transporters due to the Forge effects would explain why Kirk and pals landed in ST3. Not that they wouldn't have done that in any case, having a landing-capable ship and all. The quiz machines of ST4 don't spell a role here, as we have no reason to believe that the location in ST4 would be the same as that in ST3. Indeed, Vulcans would probably *seriously* frown upon our heroes parking their pile of junk on the foothills of the Holy Mountain for any length of time; the ST4 location more probably is just a local starport of some sort, quite a distance from Mount Seleya or the Forge.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
Ah Ha! Found it!
From Shadows of P'Jem Forest "I'm afraid I can't agree with that, Ambassador. This was a volatile situation long before Starfleet got involved. Perhaps if you'd been a little more open with us this tragedy might have been avoided."
Soval "We warned you something like this would happen. He's too impulsive. Captain Gardner would have made a far more suitable commanding officer."
Forrest "The Vulcan Consulate doesn't make command assignments here."
Now...where my Quatloo If you don't have one I can lend you one to pay me off with Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Shi(r)Kahr was never intended to be the Vulcan capital AFAIK - but rather the Vulcan equivalent of a small midwestern town. At least this is the impression we get from the novels, and the TAS view of the city certainly doesn't impress upon us the feeling of a metropolis. The defining feature fo Shi(r)Kahr in "Yesteryear" is that it sits on the edge of the Forge, which would be a pretty silly place to build your capital on.
You're assuming that The Forge was always a harsh wilderness. If Vulcan really did endure millennia of global war cycles then it's quite possible that the current harsh desert environment, which seams to be prevalent across the planet was in fact caused by these successive wars and that Vulcan might have once been a more hospitable place. If that is the case then it stands to reason that the historic Capital would have been the focus of many attacks, so I wouldn't be surprised if most of the city is subterranean, if not for shelter from the ancient bombings then from the harsh climate. Indeed you might even postulate that The Forge itself was the product of one such attack and the dampening properties are the reminent of a weapon dropped on the area, meant to disrupt technology and it's effects have somehow endured to the present.
As for why they landed the Bird of Prey, I can imagine several possible answers.
1 - Spock's apparently deteriorating condition made it dangerous to transport him. 2 - It isn't wise to be parking a Klingon ship in orbit of a major Federation world, especially when you're wanted fugitives. 3 - Mt.Selaya is a religious preserve and as such is outside the jurisdiction of Starfleet, allowing Sarek to give the ship and crew sanctuary.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Did anyone notice the fleet shots in the trailer for next week's episode? I swear I saw at least one of those CGI-concepts published in the ST Mag (does anyone still have the scans of that article?)
Here's the link to the promo for those who haven't seen it yet (startrek.com is a little late this week. They didn't post the new desktops yet either.)
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
STILL no frickin' combat cruisers.
I'm guessing there might be a legal reason we don't see 'em anymore. Plus, the changing / outsourcing of various FX studios may have caused the older (and better, IMO) design to be lost in the shuffle.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The D'Kyr-type *is* the combat cruiser. They've said that in dialogue. The only reason why we saw a modified Surak/Suurok as one in the first episode or two which called for them was because they didn't have a new model completed. So don't be surprised.
That being said, it was exceedingly lazy of them to reuse the Vahklas model in this manner. However, I certainly prefer to see more focus on story than special effects, so I think it all balances out.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I meant to say "Enterprise has," instead of had. Had implies I'm talking about this episode, which I'm not, not having seen it. I meant that, over the past four years the ship has often fired from places it probably should not have.
Re: Timo's request: I haven't really kept track, though I'm sure someone has. Uh, it seems to me that on a few occasions phase cannon beams have come from the dorsal side. In that episode where Archer is arrested by the Klingons, for example. Nothing up close and blatant, but it seemed clear from the angle Enterprise was at compared to the position of its target that the known ports couldn't be the source.
Though it seems to me that not being able to shoot "up" is a fairly serious problem. But I may be overlooking something.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The CGI model has six dorsal ports, identical in appearance to the six ventral ports, from which the cannons can be deployed. While I'm dubious about the reasoning for this to be done, I'm a firm believer that the three or four actual phase cannons they have can be moved by rail or something from one position to another.
As for the D'Kyr, well, I still wanna see the older ones. So there.
Mark
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:That being said, it was exceedingly lazy of them to reuse the Vahklas model in this manner. However, I certainly prefer to see more focus on story than special effects, so I think it all balances out.
Agreed on both points. However, it's more realistic to see the Vahklas model used again (this time with a red color like the D'kyr-type, and not the brownish color of the original Vahklas) than the survey vessels from the 1950's ("Carbon Creek"). Especially since they're now scaled down to shuttlepod size.
Re: The older Vulcan ship: Maybe they don't use it anymore because they lost the model a la the Norway.
Re: New Vulcan ship in next week's teaser: I believe I also saw a different Vulcan ship, although it could just have been the angle. I thought I saw a large ship which had a tube-like body similar to the Surak/Suurok "combat cruiser", but the warp ring didn't seem to go all the way around. It was shown for only a few seconds, and then the scene changed. Maybe it's the three-nacelled "future cruiser" Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: ...than the survey vessels from the 1950's ("Carbon Creek"). Especially since they're now scaled down to shuttlepod size.
It wasn't really scaled to anything in the first place, save maybe Sputnik, to really judge if it was scaled down or not.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I've gone through the next trailer in detail, and I can't see anything besides the three Vulcan designs seen in this episode. I doubt they'll slap one together for this episode unless there's someone on it to make it worthwhile, and I think V'Las will be commanding his fleet from home. Besides, Vulcan has up to a hundred years or more before they start using Federation designs for their exploration, that we know of.
Likewise, I only see the one known Andorian design... While it's not unusual for Trek to do fleet scenes with only one class of ship per species, I'd have hoped they could whip something up for the Blue Fleet.
Mark
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
This one. I've located the scans on my HD, the image is from the last scene in the trailer, the fleet heading away from the camera.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Cute if true!
My biggest beef with issues like this is not "Why don't we see this ship or that again?" but "Why do they have so many ship designs in the first place?".
I'd hope the answer to be that certain ship types are good for certain kinds of missions. The "plain" Surak ringship could be a deep space explorer with little or no combat value and little or no reason to loiter near Vulcan. But the "Fusion" ship lookalikes, no matter what color, supposedly still would be freighters. Okay to see them near Vulcan, I guess, but why have them in a combat fleet near Earth?
As for this "three phase guns aboard NX-01" thing, I rather think that the missing nine were installed as soon as possible after "Silent Enemy". The few that made an appearance before "The Expanse", but after "Fallen Hero" had nailed down the location of the final of the original three, would have to be something Reed cobbled together out of spare parts. I could just barely believe that the ventral guns can move to the corresponding dorsal locations, but it doesn't make sense that the ones on the upper and lower central superstructure would horizontally move to the rim or boom ports!
A phase gun firing from a navigation light is BAD. Especially because all the former shots have apparently been fired from the twelve gunports that truly exist on the model. Why the slipup now? Have the torpedo animators been drafted to do phase beams?
I'd still like Shi(r)Kahr to be something other than the capital, just out of spite. It might make sense for major Melder families like Sarek's to choose to inhabit a small town near the mythical Forge, rather than the more secular, more urban and more central parts of the planet...
And I'm still a sucker for the idea that the Forge and Mount Seleya represent ancient, even prehistoric mythos for Vulcans. When I see Diane Duane's work crumble around me, at least the relevant passages from "Spock's World" still might remain...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
You forgot this:
- T'Pau is hot.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Who'd've thunk?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
But T'Pau has the wrong accent...
"Aartt thee huuman or aart thee vuwlcaan!?!"
Does anyone have a guide to Vulcan ships!?! I'm confused with the discussion of all the different types! Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh, yeah, another thing. . . In one of the Pratchett books, there's an adventurer who's spent his whole life searching for the Fountain of Eternal Youth. Rincewind the wizard asks him whether he might have been better off doing something useful with and enjoying what life he was actually guaranteed. . . I was reminded of that when T'Pau said she's spent all that time looking for the Kir'Shara - but didn't think to look down that corridor right next to the Sacred Katra-Juggling Spot.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wes: You forgot this:
- T'Pau is hot.
Gods above, I pray you are not referring to the actress from Amok Time.
I'm impressed that the current actress actually looks as though she could become the older actress. I wonder if that was a consideration in choiosing her for the role?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I was reminded of that when T'Pau said she's spent all that time looking for the Kir'Shara - but didn't think to look down that corridor right next to the Sacred Katra-Juggling Spot.
I thought that was pretty goofy as well. Why didn't the Katra's former...er...host(?) lead them down that corridor months before?
It's pretty silly to think it was waiting for Archer to show up.
I am really enjoying the dialogue between Soval and Trip: the whole bit about Soval's affinity for Earth and it's people- "you sure hid it well" / "Thank you." was as funny as anything from the TOS crew.
My VCR is magically recording programs from this universe again so this is the fist episode I've seen from this season: I'm not too lost: I'm still getting a very GWB vibe from this "preemptive war" bit. Good acting on behalf of the actor that played Admiral Leyton: He's good at playing power-crazy officials.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
GWB?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
George W Bush. American President. Kinda looks like a chimp.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm sure that T'Pau and her dawgs have been down there a bunch of times before... But without knowledge that it's hidden in a place like that, OR sophisticated scanners to find it, they've probably walked by there a hundred times without a clue.
As for why Surak didn't get someone else to look for it, I think it has to do with him being stuck in a human. With Archer's experience and alien perspective, not to mention being implanted in an alien physiology, Surak might be able to do things (and be motivated to do them) than he ever was when in a Vulcan. Note for example that we don't see Vulcans walking around doing things they don't want to. Granted we've only ever really seen katras in humans, but it seems that when IN a human, diffferent rules apply.
And yeah, I'm sure the Vulcan ~ US Government is a deliberate parallel. My fellow Canadian fans have been discussing this IRL, and we think it's a half Cold War, half Middle East sort of thing, with an emphasis on the latter. Once more, Trek is able to look at issues normal network shows won't touch, albeit in a relatively superficial manner this time.
Mark
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: But T'Pau has the wrong accent...
"Aartt thee huuman or aart thee vuwlcaan!?!"
Does anyone have a guide to Vulcan ships!?! I'm confused with the discussion of all the different types!
Also, 110 years is plenty of time to learn a new accent. Or, the UT uses creative license depending on what version you're using.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or she has (logically cheap) vulcan dentures after 110 years of living in the desert and her annunciation suffers for it. Plus, she's older than dirt by TMP, so mabye she's a bit batty after a century in the sun.
Would've been fucking hysterical if she started speaking in "thees" and "thous" right after the unsuccessful katra-extraction! Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: T'Pau's attempted fal-tor-pan on Archer failed (she said that Surak had chosen to remain in Archer), so I guess we don't yet have a contradiction of the claim in ST3 that it had only been performed in "ages past" in legend. Of course, it could be that she just didn't hear about it. Because, presumably, they'll get Surak out of Archer's head eventually.
Was that really even the Fal-Tor-Pan? Literally meaning "re-fusion," I thought that was a ritual specifically designed to transfer a katra back to its *original* owner after they had being separated for some reason. Just transferring a "slave" katra *between* owners doesn't seem like the same thing. At least, one would think that it would be called something other than a "re-fusion." (After all, neither Archer nor T'Pau had been fused with the katra before.)
I really liked this episode, but I'm still quite befuddled as to how the Syrrannites were concealing their base at the T'Karath Sanctuary without the use of technology. And it bothers me that there would be such a glaring plot hole as this.
And just to get things straight, nobody ever said that was ShirKahr, and I agree that it has never been portrayed as or implied to be the Vulcan capital. Nor was it stated or implied that any of the locations in ST3-ST4 were in the Forge, and it would furthermore seem that they were not, as technology seemed to function fine in both. Same goes for the "Amok Time" location, to which Kirk and Spock beamed down from the Enterprise. Let's not go inventing excessive geographical coincidences where they aren't called for.
(Then again, it would appear that there have been adaptations in at least some technologies by the 23rd century to the conditions of the Forge, allowing the surface skimmers seen in "Yesteryear." Either that or the le-matya attack took place on the edge of the geomagnetic anomaly.)
As to new ships in next week's promo, there are none that I can see. The one in Kyle's screencap is the same D'Vahl design seen in this episode as the orbital patrol craft.
-MMoM Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
They've stated that Volcan brains are more advanced then Human brains, in a lot of ways. maybe a concous vulcan host of a katra can't be controlled, or 'tunes out' the background noise.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I understand it doesn't need to be ShirKahr. But I seemed to remember some vague allusions to it being a capital. I believe it may have been mentioned in some book or fansite, in relation to the USS ShirKahr. But never mind that.
So, my next uneducated guess would be Vulcana Regar. Mentioned way back in TNG, and in "Fallen Hero" as the site of a treaty conference. In a typical pig-Latin Romulan sort of way, it sounds like something 'regal'. It could be the name of the capital city.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
From what I remember reading, ShirKahr was alluded to either Spock's hometown or the Vulcan capital... the latter of which I think wasn't set in stone even in TAS.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I believe the only times the city has been referenced on screen (amusingly, in three different spellings) are as follows:
"Yesteryear" (AA) Spock's hometown, Shikahr, near the Forge.
"Tears of the Prophets" (DS9) A Miranda-class starship, the U.S.S. ShirKahr, was destroyed at the Battle of Chin'toka.
"Fusion" (ENT) Tolaris taught literature at the Shirkar Academy before giving that life up to wander the galaxy aboard the Vahklas.
I really don't see anything in any of that to indicate a palce of any particular political significance, except for perhaps the fact that Ambassador Sarek and his family lived there.
[ November 29, 2004, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Kirk commented in "Amok Time" something along the lines of all of Vulcan being in or being represented in T'Pau. Takes on a new light if she ends up with Surak's Katra.
I was thinking the same thing about the Fal Tor Pan. The "re-fusion" hasn't been done in ages. I think the transferring of Katras must be a different term.
Frankfort, the capital of Kentucky, is not the largest city in that state. It could be conceivable that Shi(r)Kar is the capital and a smaller city.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Kirk commented in "Amok Time" something along the lines of all of Vulcan being in or being represented in T'Pau. Takes on a new light if she ends up with Surak's Katra.
He called her "all of Vulcan in one package," which I interpreted to mean an exceptional example of her species. And yeah, that would be cool. Besides, I'd rather not have Archer hold onto it too long, for fear that we'd go down the Sisko/Emissary road again...
quote:Frankfort, the capital of Kentucky, is not the largest city in that state. It could be conceivable that Shi(r)Kar is the capital and a smaller city.
Yes, it's conceivable, but my point was that no particular significance has ever been attached to it other than its being Spock's home town. (OTOH, a SF ship was named after it, but we all know the reason for this is that it was an in-joke.) Besides, we *saw* what was presumably the capital in this episode, and it didn't look like ShirKahr. (In fact, it seemed like it was considerable distance from the Forge. Not sure what really indicates this, but the editing suggested it to me. I certainly didn't feel like the action was going on just over the hill from V'Las's office.)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Okay, IT'S A BIG CITY. Why does it matter if it is a capital or not? I mean aside for a reason to pull out the pissing trough for a pissing contest, which for some, involves the use of a soapbox to participate.
And for that matter, who is to say its not, you know, a regional capital - like London or Cairo, if it indeed needs to be a capital?
And finally, no one said starships had to be named after capital cities either. *cough*Portland*cough*Sao Paulo*cough*
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Haha. Look, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly not in any pissing contest. I was originally just replying to Harry's initial comment:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - We get more juicy closeups of the Vulcan city. Presumably, this could be ShirKahr, if it's the capital. It has a Star Wars look to it.
I just wanted to point out that there's no evidence or even implication of ShirKahr being the capital, so that nobody got confused. (There's probably a lot of people who haven't even seen "Yesteryear" and have heard fandom speculation on Vulcan and whatever else that could lead them to make erroneous connection between things.)
-MMoM Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"At least, one would think that it would be called something other than a 're-fusion.'"
Who says it isn't? Maybe fal-tor-pan is Vulcan for "wetware download" (assuming ancient Vulcan was ruled by cyberpunk authors). I mean, they've never actually translated it onscreen, as far as I know, so it could mean anything.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Uh...
quote:SAREK: I ask for Fal-Tor-Pan, the re-fusion.
Y'know? ST3?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - It struck me that we haven't seen a single black Vulcan yet. Did we ever see one besides Tuvok?
His wife was black, I believe. (Because even though these are aliens and Star Trek is a show where prejudice has no place, we apparently still can't have black people married to white people.)
There were at least two black Romulans, if that helps.
I just noticed that there was an Asian-esque Vulcan in TSFS.
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: But T'Pau has the wrong accent...
"Aartt thee huuman or aart thee vuwlcaan!?!"
Also, T'Lar (the Katra transfer lady from TSFS) talked the same way...it must be the mark of a priestess...or whatever she is.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:SOVAL in San Fransisco: I ask for Egg-Fu-Young, extra gravy.
Thus, with that one meal, the future Earth/Vulcan alliance was saved...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Which makes sense, being that they are vegetarians and all....
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I ask for Fal-Tor-Pan, the re-fusion."
Okay, so he was describing what it was. That doesn't make it a literal translation.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: And for that matter, who is to say its not, you know, a regional capital - like London or Cairo, if it indeed needs to be a capital?
London is just a regional capital now?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: London is just a regional capital now?
Uh, did I say "now", or did just you assume it?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"I ask for Fal-Tor-Pan, the re-fusion."
Okay, so he was describing what it was. That doesn't make it a literal translation.
I think it was intended to be, but even if it wasn't, there's still no indication that the term applies to procedures other than the one portrayed in that film. Even if it was just a description, that description doesn't fit what we saw in "Awakening."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Which makes sense, being that they are vegetarians and all....
Eggs are vegetables.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: London is just a regional capital now?
Uh, did I say "now", or did just you assume it?
Er, okay, when was it just a regional capital?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I presume that FG means when all of Earth is a unified government, current country capitals would become regional capitals. Or something.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Left would become right, dogs would become cats, cats would become Kzin and Tim would become skinny.
But the middle-east would still be figinting over nothing in particular.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: I presume that FG means when all of Earth is a unified government, current country capitals would become regional capitals. Or something.
Right. Er, did that happen then? Do we know that Cairo isn't actually the capital of the entire planet?
For that matter, why would there be a planet capital? Countries still seem to exist in Star Trek, so presumably their capitals too. Has there ever been a reference to a planet having a single capital city?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I don't think we've established an Earth capital city, but it figures there would be some equivalent to a world government body somewhere on the planet in the 22nd Century. Possibly San Francisco, where the Vulcan embassy is located (though that doesn't say much; we'll have a Japanese consulate here in Calgary soon).
Mark
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Does a planet even need a capital city? Starfleet is in San Fransisco, the presidential office is in Paris, the Federation council chamber is in Tokyo (at least according to the DS9TM, IIRC). Earth may be the capital of the Federation, but since there are no different nations on this planet anymore, ther'd be no need for a capital city. Especially since you can use a transporter to go everywhere on the planet in a matter of seconds, cities are probably "outdated" by the 24th century.
IF mot, maybe ShirKahr is just the capital because it's one of the oldest cities on Vulcan? I doubt Vulcans would choose the biggest or most beautiful city to be their capital. Maybe they chose ShirKahr because it has some historical meaning to them.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they just kept ShirKahr the capital because it was least damaged by their nuclear exchanges and moving all their preserved governmental offices would have been illogical.
Logic is a great excuse to do nothing. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Or maybe there's no reason to continue to come up with rationalizations as to why ShirKahr is the capital, because it isn't.
Seriously, now, when did anyone (including myself) ever say that ShirKahr couldn't be the capital? All I recall being said is that there hasn't ever been any evidence that it was and that we shouldn't assume that.
And BTW, the Federation Council Chambers are in Marin, as per ST4. (Of course, they might easily have other chambers in other locations, perhaps not even limited to Earth.) And Paris is the capital. (The definition of capital being the location where the head of government, in this case the President, holds office.)
-MMoM Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Oh, FFS, I wish I hadn't mentioned ShirKar. Look, there's no reason it has to be the capital, and there's no point in discussing it any further.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I believe I made my point. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Oh, FFS, I wish I hadn't mentioned ShirKar. Look, there's no reason it has to be the capital, and there's no point in discussing it any further.
SPOCK: I believe I just said that, Captain.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So....ShirKahr is the capital?
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Your all thinking like Humans... Who says Vulcan even HAS a capitol? I get the impression that the whole plnet was unified, 1500 years ago... With a high level of communication and travel technology they probobly just put government offices in the largest city, or near the main space port. Who knows, the Vulcan High Council (or whatever) might even just meet wherever it's nice at that time of year.
On the other tentacle, ShirKahr IS apperently an ancient city with cultural ties to Surak....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I think the whole point of this exercise was to point out that whatever the ENT writers say or fail to say about Shi(r)Ka(h)r, it will be *perfectly consistent* since we currently know nothing about the issue...
So, we're waiting.
And while we're waiting, can we go through our archives and see if there ever has been something called "planetary capital" in canon Trek? I think there were references to capitals on both Bajor and Cardassia (as in, "the troops are approaching the capital, sir!"), yet a general failure to actually give names to these capitals.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Searching the scripts, I can find no names for capitals. Although the Bajoran Capital is sometimes written with.. capitals, so it might simply be called Capital.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Or the Bajoran equivalent of capital anyway
Anyway... the city looked cool
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: Earth may be the capital of the Federation, but since there are no different nations on this planet anymore, ther'd be no need for a capital city.
There are no independently goverened nations, but countries still exist as unqie entities even two hundred years after this. Not only do they mention the names of the places, but Americans still have American accents, the Irish haev Irish accents, and the French sound...RSC English, for some reason.
Paris, Washington DC, Berlin, Moscow etc are probably still refered to as the coutry capitals, even if it's just a historical thing.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
When they talk about the 'main planet' of a system - i.e. Cardassia Prime - I am assuming it IS the main planet... i.e. "prime importance" - or is it the '1st' planet - closest to the star? Or is it a prime-number!!
Might the capital be 'whatever-prime'?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The chances of those alien races having their home planet be closest to the sun isn't great, so I go with "Prime".
They couldn't call the capital "whatever-prime" though, as the main planet of the Cardassian Empire is called Cardassia, so the capital city would be called "Cardassia-Prime", and that's also used as a name for the planet. So, no.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
You know, I seem to remember Dukat or someone making reference to a Cardassia ____ once or twice.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Some planets were named as if they lay in the Cardassian system. At least Cardassia IV was a class M planet where Bajoran prisoners did some manual mining, and apparently was NOT the same as Cardassia Prime. And Cardassia Prime is indeed equated with Cardassia I in the DS9 Tech Manual, if not anywhere else. Coincidence? Or proof that Prime isn't the word used for "capital worlds" after all? We don't hear of other "Prime" worlds, now do we?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Earth Prime. But then, didn't it get conquored by Kromags?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
No, Cromags took Giedi Prime and devolved into the Harkonnen. And Earth Prime wasn't deemed hot enough, so they changed it to Venus Prime and put the chick on the cover.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Isn't the Kligon capital simply and unoriginally known as the "First City"?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Do we even know if the Klingons still live on their planet of origin? Was Praxis orbiting their homeworld (Spock's idiotic line ablut "depleting their ozone" not withstanding) or just their key energy producing planet? Plus, the Hurq may have scattered klingons over several systems when they conquored them.
The "Prime" thing is pretty lazy on the writer's part- as though a race as imaginative as fleshed-out as the Bajorans would really refer to a world in their system as "Bajor 8" (ow whatever the number value of the week is).
Silly to use "prime" or number designations for anything except unimnhabited/disputed worlds.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Was the name given for Bajor's sun (at least, its Bajoran name) ever used outside of the DS9 technical manual? I'm thinking no, but I missed a surprising number of DS9 episodes.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It was not.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What was it?
And in the interest of balance, I don't recall them ever saying "Sol" more than once or twice.
(To be honest, I can't remember them saying it at all, but I'm covering my nerd-bases. Also, maybe the Bajorans do have a name for all their planets, but the UT thinks "Flinkblop? These stupid people in front of me aren't going to know what that is, so I'll change the name to 'Bajor IV' so that they don't look stupid." Presumably the only reason why we hear "Mars" and others is because the UT knows that the people watching at home have a basic grasp of the planets making up the solar system.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think they even call Bajor's star by a proper name when Changling Bashir tries to destroy it via Protomatter kamakazie.
No one refers to Sol's planets as numbers because, knowing humans, they declared the first nine stars they found to be "Sol One" and so forth.
Just as there's "New Bajor"....some colonies are just asking to be wiped out for lack of identity, if nothing else.
Mabye colonies have to attain a certain population level before they can petition for a proper name for their world- like applying for Statehood. (I kept telling the State Department we should start calling Puerto Rico "America 51" to keep them in line, but would they listen to me? Nooooo.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Jersey and York should be laughing then. New versions, that is.
Well, less so Jersey.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Re: Bajoran primary: According to said technical manual, it's Bajor-B'hava'el.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Do they give a translation?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Probably "Bajoran sun".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
WIN!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Something that's a little strange - they call one of the moons of Bajor in "Past Prologue" "Bajor VIII" and then in "Progress" one of them "Jeraddo".
That's a lot of moons.
Maybe them meant one of the planets of the system was Bajor VIII?
Andrew
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Uh, they said "the dark side of Bajor VIII's lower moon".
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