Wow - almost forget this one was happening. No worries, 'cuz I don't think anyone's expecting any gold here. Still, we might be surprised...
-Given the notion of aliens possessing the crew, how many other Trek episodes have featured that? There's more than a few possibilities here.
-But out of left field, it's the - wait for it - Organians. But why do it as posessions, and why are they so mean by infecting people with a deadly virus? Being noncorporeal, I guess they can do possiessions too, but since they can manifest as physical people, one wonders if this reference wasn't mostly shoehorned into the episode to meet some writing mandate that some reference to another series in made. It's been the case since "Home", really...
-This is the "true" Organian first contact that will eventually lead to the Treaty a century hence. Given their apparent ability to see into the future (or have a really good gut instinct about the future of Human-Klingon relations), I wonder what took 'em so long.
-In that case, look for the really really bright and extremely long-taking dissolving effect from the original TOS episode.
-And since they're Organians, 500 quatloos says that the virus consumes everyone and kills them all, only to reveal... It was a test.
-We're promised that Malcolm, Travis and Hoshi will atually have something to DO this time out (probably whilst being posessed - kinda sad to think that being take over by aliens is the best thing the writers can think of to give them some dialogue). Hopefully however, this means that there may be some background for them that we can report. More wagers?
Mark
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Organians? I thought they said Arganians... I didn't make the connection.
Yeesh. It's getting bad. Every episode will connect to TOS or TNG? I don't know which is worse.
OK, I do know. Last season was worse. But I dislike this. I dislike it Sam I am.
Organians.... and they think they only have 5,000 years before first contact? Wonder what happened to upset those calculations? And the TOS Organians didn't seem to be the observer types like these are. Oh well, not all humans appear to act the same either.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
-- The Organians have performed this same experiment on the Klingons and the Cardassians, both of whom ended up killing the infected crewmembers.
-- Hoshi was kicked out of "Starfleet Training" (we're back to that, which makes me really mad that that "Damage" fucked up with the Starfleet Academy diploma) for breaking the arm of a "company commander" who interrupted her floating poker game. Trip abbreviates it as "STC," which could stand for "Starfleet Training Corps" or "Starfleet Training Command."
-- It is taught in Exobiology-101 that a carbon-based immune system cannot fight a silicon-based virus. Funny, as both in "The Devil In The Dark" (TOS) and that one TNG episode with the "inorganic lifeform" it seemed as if these kinds of things hadn't been encountered, so how could they know?
Herb: IIRC, what upset their 5,000-year plan was Kirk and Kor trying to duke it out on their planet, whilst their space fleets did the same in orbit.
As to the excessively-indulgent continuity porn...hey, it may well be the last season of the last Trek show for a very long time, if not ever. So what the hell, let's have some clean, geeky fun!
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't mind the Organians being portrayed as a bit more sinister, or at least mercurial, considering their apparent laxity in enforcing the threats of their treaty. Who knows how fast they think, or how long their civilizations last? By the time the Klingons and Federation find them again, they may have forgotten all about them. Or, since Mark suggests they manifest themselves a little differently here, perhaps they evolved into something else entirely in the meantime?
Anyway, all I'm saying is that we don't really know anything about their attention span, or their lifecycle, or what sorts of things they do when they aren't messing around with lower lifeforms. Perhaps a few weeks after meeting Kirk some Organian proposes they see what happens when they run some of their mental processes in subspace, and by the 24th century they don't even live in our universe anymore.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe it was the case with the Silicon organisms in TOS and TNG being SENTIENT lifeforms - or even LIFEFORMS - where-as what is mentioned is a Silicon-based virus.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, I haven't seen it yet (it's taking forever to download, for some reason), but:
"Hoshi was kicked out of 'Starfleet Training' ... for breaking the arm of a 'company commander' who interrupted her floating poker game."
What? For three and a half years, they've portrayed her as a relatively reserved academic type with a tendency toward cowardice. Now, suddenly, she's the sort of person who physically assaults her commanding officers when they slightly annoy her?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I was expecting to see the yellow blobs, but I guess that would've been a Contact.
One thing that struck me as odd was that whole "Humans are different" stuff, while the actual work on the cure was done by Denobulan and a Vulcan...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I suppose they need someone's brains to eat when the alien crew-members turn nuts!
Yeah what's with the Hoshi thing - she's always been portrayed as being not-too-strong etc.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
Everyone here seems to be suggesting the Organians infected several crew/races and observed the results.
What I had taken from the episode is that the virus is on the planet already (and being silicon-based, presumably long-lived) and the Organians didn't plant it, but rather knew about it and observed races that simply and innocently encountered it and watched the results.
I thought they were keeping themselves separate from the experiment, but I wasn't under the impression they had concocted it. -----------
What I thought was a nice touch is what Archer said to them about how to better learn about humans...they seemed to feel they could better understand humans by recreating them in form.
I guess that's why in Kirk's time, he finds Organia a thriving population of apparent 'humans'.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Anyone get the impression that the possessed Mayweather and Reed were one or two of the Organians seen later?
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: What? For three and a half years, they've portrayed her as a relatively reserved academic type with a tendency toward cowardice. Now, suddenly, she's the sort of person who physically assaults her commanding officers when they slightly annoy her?
Yeah, that was definitely out of left field. I wonder if Coto or the Reeves-Stevenses had a problem with her portrayal thus far, and wanted to make her a "stronger female character" or some silly thing like that. I dislike retcons of this kind.
quote:Originally posted by Harry: One thing that struck me as odd was that whole "Humans are different" stuff, while the actual work on the cure was done by Denobulan and a Vulcan...
The test wasn't finding a cure, it was "how they react to the unexpected," and what was significant was that Archer was willing to sacrifice himself for his companions.
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect: Everyone here seems to be suggesting the Organians infected several crew/races and observed the results.
What I had taken from the episode is that the virus is on the planet already (and being silicon-based, presumably long-lived) and the Organians didn't plant it, but rather knew about it and observed races that simply and innocently encountered it and watched the results.
I thought they were keeping themselves separate from the experiment, but I wasn't under the impression they had concocted it.
That's correct, Organian-Reed said "all this would have happened whether we were here or not." Although I wonder about the possibility that the Organians could have caused the meteor crash in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Anyone get the impression that the possessed Mayweather and Reed were one or two of the Organians seen later?
How do you mean, exactly? In "Errand of Mercy"? In this episode there were only two Organians, who moved from body to body at will.
Oh, and I forgot to mention:
-- Trip and Hoshi debate the cinematic merits of Michael Chrichton and Robert Wise's The Andromeda Strain while in quarantine!
-MMoM Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I meant to say of the Organizans seen later in "Errand of Mercy".
Mark
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
I did have the strangest feeling while watching the episode that the Organian inhabiting Reed was Ayelborne. I don't really have anything to back that idea up, though.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Ah. I see. By the way, I don't know what made me think it was "Damage," but it was the more recent "Storm Front, Part II" that had the cock up with the Academy diploma. Stupid stupid stupid. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I don't recall exactly what reference was made to her diploma, but could we assume it was an honorary one given to her because she (by being part of the crew of the Enterprise) was famous?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
14 replies and no one mentioned the Cardassian name dropping yet? Where exactly is the Enterprise now and what exactly did the Cardassians do out there? And maybe even more important: why does everyone seem so advanced compared to Earth? The Cardassians obviously had warp drive centuries ago and travveled great distances. The Vulcans have warp for millenia, as do the klingons. Still, there dosen't seem to be much progress. Otherwise we'd now praise Star Trek Enterpise as the best show since TOS because the Cardassians would have kicked our asses during the Border Wars and the TNG-shows would never have happened.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
I thought I heard mention of the Cardassians, but wasn't sure as I was dead tired and falling asleep. I enjoyed the episode a bit, though.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: -- The Organians have performed this same experiment on the Klingons and the Cardassians, both of whom ended up killing the infected crewmembers.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And we already knew Cardassians were here during this time from DS9. Some poet guy was exiled to Vulcan a loooong time ago. Even way before ENT, IIRC. But the Cardassians in this timeframe are possibly not yet so resource-hungry.
As for technology, it is not that hard to understand. Many of those long-dead civilizations (the Preservers, the Tkon, the Iconians, etc) must've had warp-drive, so the technology may have been around a long long time, being passed around (and stolen) through the millenia. Which is why the supposed independent discovery of the transporter by Bill Cosy Emory Erickson was not very convincing either.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Actually, I think the Cardassian exile on Vulcan was there just two hundred years prior to Dax's mention of him. This is the sort of thing the Encyclopedia is for, but at the moment I couldn't find mine for a cash reward.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
What I found a little more disturbing about the use of the Organians is the fact that they had been doing this sort of "up close and personal" investigation of lesser species for centuries. Whatever happened to "the mere presence of beings like yourselves is intensely painful to us"?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They hadn't prepared for First Contact yet? It's a subset of Organians?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Cardassians and Ferengi both cross paths (well, Cardiassians indirectly) with the NX-01 yet we never encounter them until TNG.
The impression given then is that "The Last Outpost" was first contact with the Ferengi and first contact with Cardassians happened after Kirk's era.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
quote:Originally posted by Woodside Kid: What I found a little more disturbing about the use of the Organians is the fact that they had been doing this sort of "up close and personal" investigation of lesser species for centuries. Whatever happened to "the mere presence of beings like yourselves is intensely painful to us"?
Well, the two observers might have ben specially trained for this type of contact and they may have to spend decades in meditation afterwards. From the questions that the observers kept asking, leads me to two conclusions: 1) they didn't understand a lot of the basic reasoning behind the humanoid thinking process or passionate reactions. 2) they probably didn't get very far with these kind of questions, since they hadn't learned any tact in 800 years of observing.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...and first contact with Cardassians happened after Kirk's era."
I don't think there was ever any mention of when humans first met Cardassians. We know they were fighting wars by the 2350s, but that's about it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Cardassians and Ferengi both cross paths (well, Cardiassians indirectly) with the NX-01 yet we never encounter them until TNG.
The impression given then is that "The Last Outpost" was first contact with the Ferengi and first contact with Cardassians happened after Kirk's era.
Ugh. Though (they thought) they hadn't met the Ferengi up close and personal prior to "The Last Outpost," they had heard plenty about them from third-hand accounts and the like. This is actually stated in the episode, aside from being evident from that Ferengi comment in "Encounter at Farpoint." Plus, Picard had a battle with them years earlier without knowing it. Why do people continue to complain about this? How would Archer and company have any way of knowing that it was the Ferengi they encountered, anyway?
And, as others have said, there is evidence of the Cardassians being in contact with the Federation (or at least races that will eventually make up the Federation) fairly early on. Tobin was only Dax's second host, and he met the Cardassian poet Iloja of Prim on Vulcan well before the mid-23rd century, when the third host, Emony, met Leonard McCoy on Earth. I don't know what you based your statement that the implied first contact occurred later on, but we've been saying for years that the Cardassians are one of the 24th century races that *could* and *should* appear on ENT.
-MMoM Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
1. "the mere presence of beings like yourselves is intensely painful to us"
Perhaps it's guilt after they've lived as humans for a long time. Sure, it completely changes the original implication of the quote, but it's workable.
2. I've been working on figuring out more detail of Cardassian history, but the work is still in progress. Suffice it to say that the Cardassians of this era ought to be much more peaceful and spiritual, though still a bit less refined.
What I mean by the latter is that in the 2360's, Bolian skins were desired by Cardassian women for their suppleness ("Pathways"). I can't imagine that sort of inhumanity just appearing without precedent in the midst of a military dictatorship.
I've not yet nailed down a rough date for the military's takeover of Cardassia. "Chain of Command" appeared to imply that it had been within Gul Madred's lifetime, whereas comments from DS9 and VOY sometimes seemed to indicate a longer period of time.
The idea of the Cardassians killing the patients can, unfortunately, go either way.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And Kirk and co. were actually on Organia, the homeworld of these creatures. It would be pretty painful if lab rats came into a scientist's house to observe him.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Actually, given the "5000 years to prepare" bit, it may simply be that humans were there too early. In any case, considering the observers' observation that physical pain was odd, it could only have been some form of emotional discomfort.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"How would Archer and company have any way of knowing that it was the Ferengi they encountered, anyway?"
Because, when someone takes over your ship, but you end up capturing them, you'd be expected to interrogate them before letting them go (assuming you have to let them go).
"What I mean by the latter is that in the 2360's, Bolian skins were desired by Cardassian women for their suppleness ('Pathways'). I can't imagine that sort of inhumanity just appearing without precedent in the midst of a military dictatorship."
Nazis were known to make things out of human skin. That didn't take long to "just appear".
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Nazis were known to make things out of human skin. That didn't take long to "just appear".
I don't know of anything particularly skin-made, but I can say that most people didn't realize that their candles, for instance, were being made from human bodies. The context of the Cardassian quote doesn't conform to that.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I suppose it would be futile for me to point out that it wouldn't be the first time something in Pathways conflicted with Canon...?
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Not that I've seen the episode... but could the whole Hoshi thing be like Picard's little artifical heart incident?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I don't know of anything particularly skin-made..."
Well, it's just an example I remember learning about in school at some point, but there was some Nazi woman (wife of someone important, I think) who had a lampshade made out of the skin of executed concentration campers.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Ilse Koch. I wouldn't.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: And Kirk and co. were actually on Organia, the homeworld of these creatures. It would be pretty painful if lab rats came into a scientist's house to observe him.
IIRC, Kirk called them Organians because the Federation had named the planet Organia. Neither the Klingons nor the Organians never used that term. So a) do we really know this was their homeworld and b) why do energy-beings need a homeworld anyway? Maybe the "Organians" just chose the planet to initiate contact with the Klingons and the Starfleet because it was located in neutral space close to the Klingon Empire and the Federation?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"How would Archer and company have any way of knowing that it was the Ferengi they encountered, anyway?"
Because, when someone takes over your ship, but you end up capturing them, you'd be expected to interrogate them before letting them go (assuming you have to let them go).
Additionally, if aliens take over your ship, you're going to at least get a really good description of them and they will be picked up by various secruity cameras and possibly sensor logs/readings.
Later these records will be compared with other reports and a composite picture will be formed. Kinda like with any intelligence agency.
Further, if you're coming across these aliens in the 22nd century, surely by the 24th century they'll be pretty well known. Especially aliens with the personality and reputation like the Ferengi. They weren't isolationists, after all.
From Ex Astris Scientia:
quote:So this episode is supposed to preserve continuity only because the word "Ferengi" is never uttered? It is ludicrous that the Ferengi should be identified as late as 213 years later when the Enterprise-D has the first official encounter with them. Even if their whole civilization had heeded Archer's threat for a full two centuries, this wouldn't have prevented Starfleet from finding out about them. It may have been a bit more acceptable, still very contrived, if the Ferengi of this episode had said, in a side note, that they were a long way from their home planet. On the other hand, only a few weeks ago in "Dear Doctor", they have already been explicitly mentioned to be in contact with the Valakians. Although it was probably supposed to be the same ship in both episodes, it would suggest that Ferengi are already notorious within the (rather narrow) range of Enterprise. Moreover, one of the Ferengi mentions a "Bolian female" to Krem in the end. So they already know the Bolians, but the Bolians won't report about them when they join the Federation? Finally, the fact that the Enterprise crew prevails and would be able to scan their databanks gives the death blow to all awkward attempts to excuse the continuity breach, because this should reveal everything important about them (at the very least what they are called). "Admiral, you need to warn all Starfleet ships of these, err, guys whose race name I neglected to find out."
So, to summarize. There were too many contacts for the Ferengi to be that much a mystery by the 24th century.
And as for the Cardassians... you're right. I haven't yet found any first contact info with them. They may have been known by Kirk's time. We can't really say wat was known then with only 3 seasons of material to draw from.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
There were too many contacts for "The Last Outpost" to make any sense even if we just take TNG and beyond. Vash was hanging around with Ferengi who wasn't Rom for years before 2361, Quark was happily running the bar on DS9...it baffles the mind that the Ferengi went from the mysterious force they were in "The Last Outpost" to comical capitalists in the space of about 3 years.
"Defiant" does make mention that the Military, Obsidian Order and Detapa (or similar) council set-up had been in place for centuries, and implies that it hadn't changed much in that time.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Re Frengi: Yes, it's the early days of TNG that are the problem here, and I'm not sure I see why we should insist it is correct at the expense of everything else when, for instance, we do not insist that the Federation formed during TOS.
Re Cardassian history: That's one datapoint. In whatever the Picard torture two-parter was called, though, the torturer talks about how rough things were for him as a child before the military came to power. I suppose in this case we should probably let DS9 references hold the most weight, in the same way nobody cares about TNG Trill.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Good points, Sol. After their introduction, the Ferengi were made out to have been around for a long time. Quark ran the bar on DS-9 during the occupation, for example.
And yeah, the Trill are "a bit" different than first introduced.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
1. Ilse Koch was an evil bitch.
2. Though she is a singular individual and doesn't represent all German women (contrary to the Cardassian saying that Cardassian women liked Bolian skin), I'll nonetheless withdraw the point, because . . . in case I have failed to point this out . . . Ilse Koch was an evil bitch.
3. Gul Dukat does state in "Defiant"[DSN3] that the military and Obsidian Order both theoretically answer to the Detapa Council (though in practice both handle their own affairs), and that this arrangement has been in place for five hundred years.
I'm not sure if it constitutes a contradiction with the TNG ep, given that most of what we got was implication only. (Besides, I'm more ticked that DS9 always showed Cardassians of the past in the same triangular uniforms, instead of those blocky ones from "The Wounded". And there was no funny facial hair. And no goofy helmets.)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Re: 2. Do we know that Cardassians actually skin Bolians in order to get Bolian skin? It doesn't seem like a necessary step in the process, not in the 22nd century.
Re: 3. The military could probably "come to power" even without shaking the time-honored triumvirate of Cardassian government, merely by taking a more active role within the existing framework.
Also, while Gul Madred in clear words says that he believes the military (and specifically the military takeover) is making Cardassia a better place to live, we do not know whether his miserable childhood happened before or after the military takeover.
For all we know, Cardassia used to be EVEN WORSE before Central Command started conquering neighboring planets. Madred could merely be making a point that the conquest must be continued because there is still so much to do, because there still are starving children on Cardassia DESPITE the ongoing campaigns.
Agreed about that uniform peeve. Then again, Cardassians "in the past" were not from such a distant past, except when the time travel was due to Orb hallucinations and thus potentially faux. Gul Macet might simply have been wearing a style out of style for the past ten years or so, his ship being a run-down, combat-weary wreck from the not-so-glorious Twenty-Nine-and-Halfth Order.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Or it could be that Macet's ship was special in some way... Special ops, maybe his specific order/batallion had their own uniforms?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Re: 2. Do we know that Cardassians actually skin Bolians in order to get Bolian skin? It doesn't seem like a necessary step in the process, not in the 22nd century.
Agreed. Maybe it's just a name. Like Bloodwine or Hot Dogs.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Well, Kassiday Yates did get some Tholian silk once. I do doubt the sentient Tholians create the silk themselves. They might, but I doubt it..
So you could stretch and say Bolian skins refers to animal skins from Bolia. Easer to say than Bolian Tiger Skins or whatnot.
Perhaps a non-human would say the same about imported animal skins from Earth. I got some Earth skins or Human skins... Instead of referring to Lions and Tigers and Bears (oh my).
Part of the problem is the naming of planets vs. the people. Humans are from Earth. Vulcans, however, are from Vulcan, Cardassians are from Cardassia, Bajorans from Bajor, etc...
Klingons being the only other race off the top of my head who don't share the same name as their homeworld.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That's more a concession to the audience, along the lines of all members of an alien race looking extremely similar.
What's the Bolian homeplanet called?
And your theory doesn't quite hold with how the characters speak in Star Trek. Whenever an alien item or animal is mentioned, they ALWAYS say the planet it's from. "Cardassian voles", "Bolian sewer rats", "Romulan Ale", "Antarian diamonds", and so on.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Humans may be from Earth, but Terrans are from Terra. It's entirely possible that the matching race/planet names are a convention for the English in which we hear the show, and that the various aliens would have non-matching names from themselves and their planets.
And the Bolian homeworld is Bolarus IX, but "Bolia" has been referred to on occasion, as well (specifically, the Bank of Bolia, so maybe it isn't a planet).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
We've also heard "Cliffs of Bole".
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Not to mention the Klingons of Q'onos (Kronos)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Except someone did.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The noble warriors of Kling, you mean?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
City it was! Possibly.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Where every warrior wears really bad flower-print dresses and makes up excuse after excuse to be discharged from the Imperial Defense Force?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The Kling thing may have been another planet? or maybe a dialect thing?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: [QB] Re: 2. Do we know that Cardassians actually skin Bolians in order to get Bolian skin? It doesn't seem like a necessary step in the process, not in the 22nd century.
Well, the Pathways bit is from the 24th. And, the Cardassian informs Torres that her captain, a rotund Bolian, is dead on the bridge.
quote:Re: 3. The military could probably "come to power" even without shaking the time-honored triumvirate of Cardassian government, merely by taking a more active role within the existing framework.
True enough, but with the Obsidian Order's power and Dukat's comments it seems that a military-ruled Cardassia wouldn't have had a military which reported to the Detapa Council along with the OO, with each handing their own affairs in practice.
Of course, then there's that whole civilian coup thing that results in the Klingon invasion, a civilian government which still features a Detapa Council. Frankly, I find it all rather confusing.
quote:Agreed about that uniform peeve. Then again, Cardassians "in the past" were not from such a distant past
True. I was mainly thinking of examples where we see life as it was during the Occupation, though.
quote:Gul Macet might simply have been wearing a style out of style for the past ten years or so, his ship being a run-down, combat-weary wreck from the not-so-glorious Twenty-Nine-and-Halfth Order.
Hehehe . . . true enough. I'm also liking the idea that Macet was part of a special branch of some sort. Were it not for the fact that "Defiant" establishes that the Obsidian Order is not allowed to have its own ships, I'd want to say it was one of theirs.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
So not thinking that everything in Pathways is right is mad, then? Torres' mother's name is Prabsa and not Miral, eh? Janeway served under Admiral Paris on the Icarus, not the Al-Batani, eh?
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