If the Federation is so immense and powerfull, why do they employ a fleet of ageing, underpowered and minimally armed ships? As Laforge says to Scotty in 'Relics' regarding the USS Jenolan, "just because something is old doesn't mean we throw it away" try telling that to the crew of the Oberth class Bonstell trying to take on a Borg Cube at wolf 359... The federation flagship as of 2064 was the Galaxy class Enterprise, one of only six at the time according to the great bird, was dwarfed and outmatched tactically by a Warbird, and evidence suggests the Romulan fleet consists almost exclusively of these death machines.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Not all of Starfleet's ships are built for combat. I would wager that most aren't. As for the Oberth at Wolf 359, when you're desperate, you'll try anything.
B.J.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I'd deffinately agree that very few are built for combat but its their age thats the problem, when you watch the 'Sacrifice of Angels' you see mostly Excellsior and Mirranda class ships going up against a powerfull military force, why not have a fleet of Galaxy's and Nebula's? The Romulans can build and staff this many capital ships, as can the Cardassians and the Klingons...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
The script.
I'm sure that BOBW would have been a much more compelling story if a super-fanboy multiple quantum torpedo, batmobile armoured, with metaphasic shields and pulse killamajiggers armed starship had wiped out the Borg with a single shot.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Kirk's federation wasn't outmatched the way Sisko's was, you never saw any 'Archer' era ships in the Spacedock in 'the search for spock', they were all contemporary designs. The Bonstell wasn't in the best of both worlds anyway so it didn't make any differance to the story...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Umm, actually... If you look hard enough, you can spot one of 'em McQuarrie study models for the never made Trek TV movie / "In Thy Image", sitting in the spacedock amidst all these Excelsiors and Mirandas and Connie-refits. Definitely anachronistic-looking...
I wonder what Kirk-era Starfleet would have looked like if engaged in a war. Half the fleet in the white refit style, half in TOS grey?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: when you're desperate, you'll try anything.
B.J.
Often the case when you're drunk. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
True, we never see a ton of old ships in the TOS era, but we never see a ton of anything in the TOS era.
If we're to only go on what we see, the TOS fleet was 13 Constitution Classes and some shuttles.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Incidently, there's no reason to necessarily think that a Romulan Warbird is anything but large. Prior to the latter half of DS9 they had never been seen in combat. The Romulans are usually engaged in conspiracies and espionage and the pursuit of superweapons. If they really had a strong "traditional" fleet, would they need to pursue all these other careful, cautious plans?
Someone, probably Lee, has suggested here that the Romulan Warbird might be primarily a psychological weapon, with the entire Empire being a lot more like North Korea than, say, Russia or China (to borrow the original series' Cold War allegories).
[Perhaps one reason why the Romulans have never sought more engagement with the outside world is that the Neutral Zone actually protects their fragile hold on whatever populations they've conquered, or even their own people?]
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
If I recall, the only time we see more than two Connies in TOS is the episode with the M-5 computer and the wargames. I forget what ships were involved ( I think the flagship was the Lexington ) But the FX were just 4 Enterprises composited. When we look at the two new BB's that went after the Scimitar in Nemesis, they didn't seem to take much of a beating before being knocked out (Compared to the EE) so perhaps the Warbirds weren't all that powerful.
It appears to me that the Constitution class was much like the U.S.S. Constitution itself, generally better armed and well rounded than the frigates of other nations. A ship able to outgun its contemporaries and outrun say a ship-of-the-line.
Side note to any history buffs/ Brits....
H.M.S. Guerriere......Just how is this supposed to be pronounced? I've always heard it as GEE-ay. Is this right?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't think it was me said any such thing. I will await some creative searching by some smartass like Jason to conclusively prove me wrong on that, however.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
"Guerriere" is French for the feminine pronunciation of "warrior". It's pronounced "GEH-ree-EHR". The masculine pronunication is Guerrier, or "GEH-ree-eh". Why?
And hey, the USN routinely uses ships that are thirty or more years old. Less so these days, but during the Cold War, anything went. If you extrapolate from the NCC numbers, most ships in the TNG era were probably no more than 50-60 years old, trending lower. If things really DO last much longer in the future, this isn't unreasonable.
All that's left is the use of antiquated designs - but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The US Army standard sidearm was the Colt 1911, a .45 pistol that was standard from 1911 through to the first Gulf War, with few model changes in between. They STOPPED making the pistol in 1945, and had enough to last over forty years...
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
And AK-47 will probably continue to be the infantry weapon of choice for the next 200 years, matching some Klingon ship designs in longevity.
Navies in general have always had a "presence" aspect overriding most "usefulness" aspects. A mostly non-combatworthy ship (like all those "fire support cruisers" of the 1960s USN) is better than no ship in missions of power projection, which is a big part of what navies do. ...Even if a layman might think the money would be better spent retiring her and building a newer ship (or 1/4 of a newer ship, as it often goes).
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, I'll take the credit myself, then.
Or, I guess, the blame.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I don't think it was me said any such thing. I will await some creative searching by some smartass like Jason to conclusively prove me wrong on that, however.
Too bad: I think it's an original and smart idea. Of course it's not yours.
I always figured the Warbird's main psychological weapon (within the Empire) was the cloaking device.
More because it's unknown (to the general populace within the Romulan Empire) how many ships the Romulans operate and their whereabouts (possibly unknown to anyone but the Preator himself- how better to keep the populations in check with a limited number of starships?).
Kirk's Starfleet being somehow superior to that of the DS9 era is laughable: encounters with neighboring powers were far less frequent back then (as the Fed- indeed everyone's territory- was far smaller).
The larger the Federation becomes, the more reliant it will be on ships to patrol it's boundries- the practicality of starship construction would mean that older starships would be used and refittede as long as possible (particularly in sectors within the federation where it's unlikely they'll encounter hostile starships).
As Picard put it,Starfleet is not a military organization." Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
quote:More because it's unknown (to the general populace within the Romulan Empire) how many ships the Romulans operate and their whereabouts (possibly unknown to anyone but the Preator himself- how better to keep the populations in check with a limited number of starships?).
The average Rommie never takes a dump without a plan.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...or a "moe" haircut unfortunately.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote: As Picard put it,Starfleet is not a military organization."
Which is a load of crap.
Just because someone states a fact doesn't make it true.
Starfleet should just get off their high horse and admit they are the Federation military.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
They STOPPED making the pistol in 1945, and had enough to last over forty years...
I am reasonably certain that Colt continues to make the pistol, although the military no longer uses it as the standard sidearm (I think the Beretta has that honor).
Even if Colt isn't making them anymore, Colt clones still sell - Springfield Armory makes an excellent GI model.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:As Picard put it,Starfleet is not a military organization.
Oh really!Than what is it, a group of NASA scientists with guns?
Starfleet is the military since they're the only ones I see doing something when the Borg try to assimilate Earth or the Dominion try to invade the alpha quadrant or whatever. I think Picard just assumes that starfleet is not a military organization since they hide behind this "seek out strange new worlds and new civilizations" crap. While they do scientific research and stuff, they are obviously the military since I've never heard nor seen another organization responsible for protecting civilians.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay: I am reasonably certain that Colt continues to make the pistol, although the military no longer uses it as the standard sidearm (I think the Beretta has that honor).
Yup, the Beretta M9. Colt does still make versions of the old 1911, but the US army stopped buying them after WWII. One source I read reports that they still had almost two MILLION pistols left over after the war, which lasted them through the 80s. The 9mm Beretta was slated to replace the Colt in 1985, but it took several years longer.
Mark
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I think when Picard said that, Roddenberry was alive... and wanted to move away from humanity's darker side. Yet in any event, Starfleet is the premier military, scientific, and diplomatic organization for the Federation. Picard is just stating that since there hasn't been a major conflict in the Alpha Quad or even an emergency that threatened Earth since the Whale Probe in the 23rd Century.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
The problem is that most think that the Star Trek technology is progressing exactly how the Navies of the world have. No that's not it works. First of all in the past hundred years, we have progressed from the big gun to the big missile. But even now there are really no such thing as fleet engagements, it's more like the US Navy and her allies bomb the hell out of her enemies on the shore.
No, the real world equivilant of a Excelsior class ship serving in the 24th century would be the USS Enterprise, USS Shitty Kitty and the USS Kennedy serving in today's fleet. Hell, if you had enough money, he could pull out all the carriers and refit them to use the latest technology to land the jets of today. The basic technology of WWII on landing planes on a carrier is really not that much of a difference then today. Look at the differences between the latest carrier the USS George Bush (SR) and the USS Forrestal, to an untrained eye they look nearly identical. The equivilant of a 100 year old starship design is the equivilant of a 30 to 50 year old carrier design.
The US Navy even pulled out four 60 year old battleships and refitted them for 400 million dollars each. That's far more cost effective than the billion dollar ship these days. Not only that they are superior in terms of ship to ship engagements than any new build cruisers. They are unsurpassed by any naval vessel put out today in terms of shore bombardment.
I do agree, though since it looks like Starfleet did put out new build Miranda, Oberth and Excelsior class ships in the mid 24th century. Which makes no sense IMO, since if they are bilding new ships why couldn't they build new designs ships like the Ambassador class, which is probably superior? Of course the real world answer is budget. Star Trek answer of course would be that it's easier to build a proven vessel like the Excelsior class with the latest technology than to design one from scratch. Obviously, Starfleet already has dealt with the problem of upgrading the Excelsior class to mtach the latest designs with the USS Lakota.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Agreed - Starfleet in the early 24th century could well have been in the same position as USN and USAF today: they have no "enemies", just "targets". The Mirandas worked fine in the 2280s, so why would they not work just as fine in the 2340s?
The only reason warship designs (as opposed to the ships themselves, which may get fatigued) could get "outdated" is if the mission profile somehow becomes more challenging. If there are no new or improved military opponents, there's no need for weapon improvements. And if the galaxy doesn't change physically, and no new "aspects" of it are revealed to UFP science, there's no need for sensor and research gear upgrades. An expansion of the operational theater might call for improved engines, but then again, we don't know that the UFP expanded over that period of time.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
You forget that in the 24th century, the Federation may not be the "United States of America" of the Alpha Quadrant. I mean we know of many races that are warlike in nature (like klingons) that probably dedicate most of their energy on war machines that could outclass many Starfleet ships. I always got the impression that although Star Trek was told from the perspective of the Federation that did not make it the only superpower in the region, but rather one of many.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: if they are bilding new ships why couldn't they build new designs ships like the Ambassador class
Maybe there are enough Ambassadors but they are all out exploring on the edges of known space? Sorta what the Galaxies are supposed to do - but the Enterprise got called back to the Federation core worlds too often during it's seven year 'life'.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump:
quote: As Picard put it,Starfleet is not a military organization."
Which is a load of crap.
"Just because someone states a fact doesn't make it true..."
Just because someone states a fact...
Um..that sentence made no sense at all.
A fact is implicitly true, pallie. Otherwise it's just an opinion or a theory.
I think Picard's statement is that Starfleet is NOT a military organization by nature but IS the Federation's means of defense. People dont join Starfleet because they're gungo-ho to defend the Federation against it's enemies- they join to explore and learn and all kinds of good shit that no one today does.
The Romulans and Klingons probably have dedicated military fleets as well as seperate scientific branches (explaining why Romulans sometimes operate dinky science ships instead of building multirole vessels).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I believe he (or she; let's be egalitarian) likely meant "just because something is claimed to be a fact," etc.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:A fact is implicitly true, pallie. Otherwise it's just an opinion or a theory.
I thought the same thing too, until rcently.
My kid's 6th grade teacher just corrected me on that.
quote:For reading class, students have to tell whether a sentence is stated as a fact or opinion. He is right in what he is telling you. The sentences that are facts can be false. They are something that can be proven true or not. An opinion is how someone feels about something. I have stressed that the fact does not have to be true, in this case, because they are looking to see if the students can tell the difference between the two. I hope this helps.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
From Dictionary .com: Usage Note: Fact has a long history of usage in the sense �allegation of fact,� as in �This tract was distributed to thousands of American teachers, but the facts and the reasoning are wrong� (Albert Shanker). This practice has led to the introduction of the phrases true facts and real facts, as in The true facts of the case may never be known. These usages may occasion qualms among critics who insist that facts can only be true, but the usages are often useful for emphasis.
I'm guessing that there's a difference between a "statement of fact" which can be correct or incorrect, but is nonetheless presented as factual, and something which is actually a "fact", or a true, accurate, unbiased statement.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Fuck that noise. The idea of a "incorrect fact" is just shit someone made up to avoid admitting they were wrong in the first place.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I think it's in the same league as that "new math" stuff...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Calling falsehoods "facts" is the same as teaching children set theory?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
While I do agree that UFP is not the only 'superpower' in that part of the Galaxy in some episodes it does tell us that UFP space is far more vast than Klingon or Romulan space. Even the maps that have been in the episodes more or less support this. So to cover a larger amount of space, you must have a larger fleet.
In addition more territory equals more resources. More resources equals to more ships. Smaller territory equals smaller resources, which in turn equals smaller fleet.
Romulan and Klingon ships may be equal or better than their Starfleet counterparts, they nevertheless may have lesser numbers. Hell, we can't even support that their ships are more powerful than their counterparts.
The Miranda class and the Excelsior class could just be so well designed and efficient that through upgrades can do the same thing their modern counterparts can do. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Besides lets assume that the Excelsior class has a total of 200 ships. Then let's assume that the Matrix class is designed to replace them and naturally with a growing territory, have more. So Starfleet wants 300 ships of the Matrix class. Now the problem is how many ships can the Federation produce in one year? They can probably produce 40 extra ships, so let's assume 200 ships of all classes are produced a year. Now let's assume that 20 Matrix class ships are produced a year. That sounds reasonable. If you do the math, it would take 10 years to replace the Excelsior class and another 5 to have the numbers Starfleet wants.
That number can go up or down if I'm wrong about the Excelsior class's number. Also, a fleet's size entirely depends on how many ships are produced a year. Whcih brings up another point: What if Starfleet in addition to producing more ships to it's ever growing territory, and replacing other older ships (not individual classes but ships) cannot produce extra ships to replace the apparantly lagre numbers of Excelsior and Miranda class?
In addition, it seems that Starfleet is unwilling to replace something that works. Look at the Oberth class, if we go by it's registry, she should have been an early 23rd century design.
An example would be the Klingons, they reuse and reuse the same exterior design. Now the difference between a 2151 battlecruiser and a 2378 battlecruiser would huge, but the exterior would still be the same. Common sense (even for Klingons) would be if the design is not capable anymore, don't reuse it, yet they still do and in more numbers than before. Couldn't the same apply to the Excelsior or Miranda?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: While I do agree that UFP is not the only 'superpower' in that part of the Galaxy in some episodes it does tell us that UFP space is far more vast than Klingon or Romulan space. So to cover a larger amount of space, you must have a larger fleet.
Asssuming that you ARE covering that amount of space. Perhaps only militant empires jealously guard their borders? Based on the shows, it doesn't seem that the Feds would be able to mount a timely response to anything happening in their space if it wasn't for the Enterprises - and while we have little knowledge of Klingon or Romulan reaction times in their respective spaces, generally they seem to rise to border incursions pretty aggressively, with ST6 being basically the only time our heroes got past a border with impunity (and that was an obvious Matthias Rust analogy, highlighting the sorry state of the Empire at the time).
quote: In addition more territory equals more resources. More resources equals to more ships. Smaller territory equals smaller resources, which in turn equals smaller fleet.
OTOH, the vehemence with which you exploit your territory may also matter.
quote: Romulan and Klingon ships may be equal or better than their Starfleet counterparts, they nevertheless may have lesser numbers. Hell, we can't even support that their ships are more powerful than their counterparts.
Indeed, basically every reference confirms that Fed ships are individually better. Even the big Rommie warbirds are explicitly slower than the Galaxies.
Although the Feds after Khitomer may not have ruled completely sovereign, there'd probably still be much less military competition than before. Space is big, and when your closest neighbors are in a rut and not threatening you, you probably won't plunge into an escalation race just because the distant Tholians or Breen are arming themselves. In such a stagnated threat environment, it would make sense to use existing ship designs to their max. Or even revert to older desings, since the threat environment now is back to what it was a century ago, with the Klingons (and, after Tomed, Romulans) gone!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Good points there, but i don't have a problem with the fact that the majority of starfleet are not warships, Picard was not happy at the idea of wargames in 'peak performance' and Starfleet is a defensive and exploritory organisation, but the age and shambolic state of its fleet does not befit its status. The two Mirranda's in Sacrifice of Angels doing cartwheels after a single torpedo each hits their saucer, plus on three occasions (Emmisary, Tears of the Prophets, what you leave behind) We've seen Excelsior saucer sections literally MELTING under attack. As far as exploritory service go, A warbird may be slower than a Galaxy but they must be a great deal faster than an Excelsior or the Hood would have travelled with the Enterprise to make contact with Tin Man. If modern starships are able to be built and financial constraints do not exist, why does starfleet risk the lives of its personnel in such ways? A modern day diver would not travel to the ocean floor with a hundred year old suit!
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
It wasn't just the Mirandas and the Excelsiors that were being blown apart. Look at the one Akira doing cartwheels when she got hit mulitple times by the ODPs in the season finale of DS9's sixth season. Hell even the USS Galaxy herself got chunks blown out of her.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
It's possible those ships had already taken multiple hits and their shields were already considerably weakened or had completely collapesed in those area or throughout the entire ship.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
starfleet obviously knows most of its ships are useless, thats why whenever there's a first contact with a hostile race they wait for a Galaxy to arrive before doing anything. They sent the Enterprise to the Neutral Zone when the Romulans resurfaced (Which was outclassed) likewise when the Jem Hadar first appeared Starfleet postponed action until the Odysey turned up, she then dumped her civilians, swaggered through the wormhole like some starship equivalant of clubber lang from Rocky 3, then was promptly rammed and detroyed by a ship the size of a school bus.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Two incidents that don't completely support your theory since the Enterprise was already near the Neutral Zone (and Starfleet had already sent the Berlin ahead of time hoping it would be enough) and the Odyssey was already the nearest ship to DS9 to assist against the Jem'Hadar
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah. Large military-esque organizations always put people in harms way knowing that a huge chunk of its resources are ill-equipped to do their jobs.
Are a large number of the ships they build intentionally not suited for heavy combat situations? Yes. Are they useless? No.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Again folks, I will have to reiterate that its not the tactical power i'm on about its their age and ability. As I said above the Excelsiors are slower than warbirds, and don't last long in a fight. What were starfleet ships designed for? Exploration? What would a ship need to accomplish this task? The latest defenses, powerfull engines, comfortable and plentifull crew accomadations. A galaxy has all of these, most other starfleet ships are too small, too slow, and too weak to perform any of these tasks WELL.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
What about the Excelsior Class U.S.S. Lakota? So old and slow that it had the Defiant one shot away from biting it. With upgraded technology, those designs are apparently still capable of providing needed functions.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Ships should be designed for their functions. The one thing British aircraft have taught the world is that they can build a plane that will do everything but excel at nothing. Their use of the Harrier in the Falklands proved the implausability of this concept and it cost them 5 ships. The Harrier is a fantastic aircraft in it's limited role as a close support fighter but is useless in the CAP (Combat Air Patrol) role.
The same goes for Starfleet vessels. There should be specific types and classes for specific purposes.
Look at the Connies. In ST3 the Klingon says "Federation Battlecruiser" when the E approaches. That would tend to infer that there are larger more powerful classes out there. Perhaps in her day, the connies were THE class of battleship. BUT, just as old U.S. Navy BB's at Pearl Harbor were top of the line in their day (the 1920's) two decades later they were barely even second rate ships and certainly no match for an Iowa or Yamato class BB. And now, not even the Tomahawk equipped Iowas are of any real significance as anything other than floating museums.
Another issue I see is where are the Carriers? When you see the little runabouts hefting photons and such, why didn't Starfleet produce true Fighters and Bombers? The Maquis gave Starfleet fits with their nimble little ships.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think the only reason the Maquis caused Starfleet real headaches is because they didn't want to destroy their ships. They weren't out to kill the Maquis. If a larger class starship really needed to defend itself against a half dozen Maquis ships, I have no problem believing that it could. As hit an run fighters, smaller ships like that work fine, but even in the large battle to retake the station, they really proved quite useless. It's not like flying a plane. The ship would have to cover a huge distance to get out of range after laying down fire.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
In general, I find Starfleet is a little slow to change. While they may develope new and exciting ship designs, their ships never really stood out for anything else because they were equipped with the same weapons Starfleet has been using for nearly 2 or 3 centuries (beam-phasers and photons). The only reason they came up with new weapons (pulse-phasers, ablative armor, quantum torpedoes)was because of great threats like the Borg and the Dominion. If they hadn't come along, Starfleet probably wouldn't have thought of those technologies (or if they had thought of them, probably wouldn't implement them).
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
And of course they now have the uber-Batmobile armor! Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah, I think its kinda sad when you have get your new technology from a future version of yourself who hangs around a dark alley wearing a trench and saying "Hey you want some Borg-Cube blasting torpedoes? Their half price."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Somehow they should state that all that "future bullshit technology" self-destructed after 48 hours (because Future Janeway wanted to minimize fucking up the timeline).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Either that or Lt. Daniels managed to retrieve it.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
It was probably Captain Braxton more than Lt. Daniels. Daniels lusted for Archer's hot body; Braxton had the obsession with getting all up in Janeway's bun.
I'm with Jason. I would have preferred something in "Endgame" to say that the future technology and all records related to it were removed after use. Unfortunately, those new weapons were used against the Borg. They're probably studying the sensor logs from the battles that tech was used instead of going out and getting laid. Starfleet's going to have to dissect and build upon the future tech in order to stay up with the Borg.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote: Daniels lusted for Archer's hot body
I'm sure he wouldn't want you to reveal that info to the general public.
quote: Braxton had the obsession with getting all up in Janeway's bun
I believe the correct ghetto term is "He wanted to get all up in her grill" unless by bun you are referring to her hairstyle in the early days of Voyager or her bottom.
Anyways...The episode "Endgame" gave me the impression the Borg were all destroyed or made so weak they could never achieve their greatness again. So in the end, that uber tech would only be known to Starfleet, the Borg (if they still exist), God, and maybe Buddha.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I was referring to Janeway's infamous hairstyle.
I didn't get the impression that the Borg were completely done for. Janeway did take out the Queen, yes, but so has Picard. Janeway delivered a virus into the Borg Collection, but I think they did the same thing in an earlier episode. After the episode ended, it still felt like the Borg are out there and still a threat. Albeit, a threat that once again had its ass handed to itself.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
The Borg was just crippled. They will eventually rebuild what they lost and some day the Borg Queen will show herself again.
It's not like Starfleet is the only ones that are slow. Look at the Klingons... they use the same designs for the past 200 years.
The Romulans appear to use only Warbirds. Now I am guessing that someone will say this actually smart, but it's not. Building a few hundred large ships with only a few purposes in life as opposed to building a large multi-thousand fleet with a well rounded out fleet. I'm sure in times of war, all you would want is a large fleet of Defiants, Galaxys, Akiras and Sovereigns. Everyone would want that sort of fleet, but you have to look at it this way:
Before 2365 or even 2370, what was Starfleet doing? They were exploring because the only threats was from the Romulans who rarely show themsevles, the Klingons were their allies, the Cardassians have ships mostly inferior to Starfleet's and they have a treaty, and the Borg only send one ship. So why build a large fleet of warships that would be useless in peacetime?
Like I said before, the Excelsior and the Miranda classes especially the ones we have seen in the war, are actually somewhat newer. I highly doubt that the 42xxx range Excelsiors are crabon copies of the USS Excelsior herself. Hell, I am willing to bet that the interior and the technology of the Excelsior looks nothing like what we saw her in ST6 (that's if she's the same Excelsior).
Afterall, the Lakota was upgraded and she came close to finishing off the Defiant. That's impressive since not even an entire fleet of Dominion ships were able to accomplish.
No, the Iowa class are not obsolete. They are just useless nowadays. When's the last time you saw two ships duking it out with guns or even missiles? Even for shore bombardment, do you really need a million dollar a day battleship doing what two smaller and cheaper ships can do? Did the navy really need those 16" guns?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, that's basically the definition of "obsolete."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
NO obsolete: just not remotely cost-effective.
Good observations on the Excelsior class though.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: And of course they now have the uber-Batmobile armor!
It's an anti-theft system for starships...which sounds really dumb untill you realize that every featured starship on trek has been stolen at least once.
Okay, not the "E" but if they could have crammed it into Nemesis, they would have).
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Okay, not the "E" but if they could have crammed it into Nemesis, they would have).
Well, the Borg came pretty damn close in First Contact.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: No, the Iowa class are not obsolete. They are just useless nowadays. When's the last time you saw two ships duking it out with guns or even missiles? Even for shore bombardment, do you really need a million dollar a day battleship doing what two smaller and cheaper ships can do? Did the navy really need those 16" guns?
Well, leaving aside the liklihood of missiles being used as the primary ship to ship weapon in any future fleet engagement (assuming air launched ones don't finish them all off first), the primary purpose of the Iowas is shore bombardment, which does need missiles. The guns are of less use but can still be very effective; during Vietnam, the guns destroyed a number of targets that aerial bombardment had been unable to destroy. Still, that doesn't mean they couldn't have just mounted them in monitors. Basically they're for impressing the natives.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: starfleet obviously knows most of its ships are useless, thats why whenever there's a first contact with a hostile race they wait for a Galaxy to arrive before doing anything. They sent the Enterprise to the Neutral Zone when the Romulans resurfaced (Which was outclassed)...
Based on what? The fact that (for pretty much the only time in the show's run) it was bigger than the Enterprise? "Bigger" as "outclased" only works for penises, and nothing more.
I'm just not sure how you're arriving at your conclusions. Aside from the relevent ships' location to said events (as mentioned earlier), the impression I get is "We need to wait for our best ships to create a good impression". You've somehow lept from that to "All our ships apart from the Enterprise and similar are shit".
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The Enterprise was not specifically the nearest ship to the Neutral zone and Picard was recalled to a meeting at a starbase before the Enterprise was sent to make contact, he states that the Enterprise was chosen for the encounter by Starfleet command. Likewise nowhere does it say the odysey was the closest ship rather that it was patrolling the DMZ (along with how many other ships?) Its widely accepted that the Warbird is more heavily armed than a Galaxy and the Galaxy is the pinacle of the fleet, with most other ship in starfleet being VASTLY less powerfull. As far as the Lacota being upgraded, O'Brien states that he's never seen an excelsior with that kind of firepower so we can infer it was only refitted to support Leighton's coup, if we follow this logic we could just build deffiant class space frames without warp cowlings and weld them onto the saucer section of all outdated ship designs, but the point that underneath it all they are still outdated designs. Again an Excelsior is also considerably slower than a Warbird (Tin Man) Put it this way, if a Federation Colony were the victim of a natural disaster and two thousand colonists were in need of evacuation or medical tratment, what ship class could respond other than a Galaxy or a Nebula? With their large medical staff and cargo areas? Likewise if the Federation discovered a stable wormhole to the Andromeda galaxy and chose you to lead a three year lone expedition, if they gave you command of a Miranda and told you to go through, try telling me you wouldn't have brown pants!
[ March 02, 2005, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Grand Admiral Thrawn ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
If they discovered a stable wormhole, there would be no need to rush the situation. They could send whatever the hell ship had the ability to get the job done. In the case of the emergency, they would send whichever ship was the closest to render whatever possible aide until additional resources arrived. The ships most likely to be in the area of colonies would be transports, cargo and supply vessels, etc. Where's the point in equipping a ship for roles that it will only fill once in a blue moon, when, likely, other precautions have been established to maintain a reasonable level of security?
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Yes but the point being that the entire Romulan and Cardassian fleets, as well as the large Vor Cha elements of the Klingons could respond to most of these situations, Starfleet's could not. The ending of Generations being a prime example with the Farragut flying alongside a Mirranda and an Oberth, what use would that Oberth have been if it had arrived first? Beamed down blankets? Offered moral support over the Comm system?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: The Enterprise was not specifically the nearest ship to the Neutral zone and Picard was recalled to a meeting at a starbase before the Enterprise was sent to make contact, he states that the Enterprise was chosen for the encounter by Starfleet command.
It was the flaship. If you're about to meet a potentially hostile and mysterious race that you haven't seen for half a century, it makes sense for them to send their best.
quote: Likewise nowhere does it say the odysey was the closest ship rather that it was patrolling the DMZ (along with how many other ships?)
Actually, the ship was heading for the station at the start of the episode (way before any emergency), so it almost certainly was the closest ship.
quote:Its widely accepted that the Warbird is more heavily armed than a Galaxy
By whom? Picard wasn't overly keen about facing them down, but that (I assume) would be because he was worried that some of his crew would get killed in a fight, whether they won or lost.
quote: and the Galaxy is the pinacle of the fleet, with most other ship in starfleet being VASTLY less powerfull.
Assuming that the Romulans only have the Warbird because that's (almost) the only ship we saw is shakey logic of the highest order. As has been mentioned before (on this thread), the Romulans are just the sort of people who would develop a number of large, impressive looking ship purely for looks while keeping the rest of their extremely outdated and shit fleet out of view of Starfleet.
quote:Put it this way, if a Federation Colony were the victim of a natural disaster and two thousand colonists were in need of evacuation or medical tratment, what ship class could respond other than a Galaxy or a Nebula?
The closest ship available. Or do you think Starfleet will say "hmm, we've got an Excelsior 2 hours away, but we'd best wait for the Galaxy class that's 3 weeks away"?
In any event, it's not a straight swap. Let's say there is a mini-fleet with 10 Excelsior's, 2 nebula's and a Galaxy. Starfleet builds another Galaxy. Do they scrap an Excelsior, or do they just add the Galaxy to the mix?
Going by the NCC numbers, the old ships haven't been built for quite a while. All high registry ships are new designs like the Defiant and Intrepid classes (baring registry fuckups, obviously), so the new ships Starfleet is building are new. But why get rid of perfectly servicable old ships?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
You are somewhat overstating your case here, I'm afraid. (Edit: I refer to our good Imperial underling here, in case there was confusion.) It's blatantly obvious that the UFP Starfleet is not omnipotent, yes - but it is even more obvious that for example the forces available to the Cardassian Central Command are even more pitiful, amounting to a "third-world navy" in today's terms. To this day, there's not a military confrontation where the Cardassians would verifiably have triumphed, nor any other sort of use of naval assets. (Well, the modified freighter from "Return to Grace" did score one, but that was due to Bajoran assistance!)
Now, the Cardassians are known weaklings. What about the Klingons, tho? The Vor'cha does not seem to be an especially impressive combatant, neither in terms of engagements pitting her against UFP adversaries ("The Chase"), nor in Klingon internecine conflicts ("Redemption I"). Against the Dominion, this ship type seems particularly helpless. The Klingon war machine is admittedly diverse yet strangely uniform in strength (ships have "the power of plot", regardless of type). And it does not appear to be meeting the needs of its operating Empire any better than Starfleet meets the needs of the UFP.
The Romulan fleet is a bit of a mystery. The Warbirds probably outgun the best the Federation can offer - hard to tell, though, since the only actual engagements involving Fed opponents have been abortive, stalemates, or pants-down situations like the "Timescape" one. They don't outrun Fed ships, and seem otherwise at disadvantage for example in the Tin Man crisis, but they certainly look like very impressive combatants. It would be quite interesting to learn how the Romulan fleet compares to the Federation one, yet we never get enough facts to make that comparison. How many of those superior Warbirds are there? Not enough to stop the blatant intrusions in "Contagion"...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: Yes but the point being that the entire Romulan and Cardassian fleets, as well as the large Vor Cha elements of the Klingons could respond to most of these situations, Starfleet's could not. The ending of Generations being a prime example with the Farragut flying alongside a Mirranda and an Oberth, what use would that Oberth have been if it had arrived first? Beamed down blankets? Offered moral support over the Comm system?
It could have beamed down those emergency structures seen in Voyager, supplies, and yes, blankets. Would you rather nothing?
The flaw in your logic is assuming that the Romulan fleet is the same size as the Federation fleet, and is composed entirely of d'Deridex class warbirds. There is nothing in the show to indicate any of that is true. The Romulans might have 1000 Ultra powerful ships. The Federation might have 500 ultra-powerful, 700 quite-powerful, and 4000 not-overly-powerful-but-you-wouldn't-want-them-ganging-up-onn-you ships. It's a futile point to argue.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I've always been baffled about ships from different classes having the same name. Was the "Excelsior Class" Farragut decommissioned while the Nebula Class Farragut evacuated the Enterprise-D survivors?
I see no point on not having two ships with the same name, as long as they are different classes. We still don't know of the Nebula Class Prometheus is still around along with the Prometheus Class USS Prometheus.
I played ST: Bridge Commander earlier in class and took on three D'Deridex class warbirds with an Akira, two Nebulas, and the Prometheus. Ganging up on a ship such as the warbird allowed me to take it out... granted I ended up loosing a Nebula afterwards. My point? Less powerful ships in numbers can take out a bigger one. Just make sure the enemy has no backup nearby.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
The U.S. Navy has about 290 ships active SEE HERE and only FIVE are carriers underway. I believe there are 8 others in various states of SLEP (Service Life Extension Programs) and other similar programs. I would think that the fleet would be the same way compositionwise and on active duty.
If an Arleigh Burke class destroyer shows up at a situation, it might not be able to do what a Nimitz can, but it can go a long way toward gathering the information needed for the bigger ships to prepare for when they do arrive. Logistics is the life or death of any fleet action.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Then again, it's highly unlikely that there will ever be any "fleet action" again in the history of this planet.
The United States is the only power in the world today that can afford to have a fleet in the first place. What some other nations might call fleets have no hope of getting to engagement range of individual USN ships, let alone fleets. And the only thing the USN can do with its fleet is to support overland operations with carriers, bombardment ships, AA ships and amphibious assaults, as well as offer near-harbor protection(as opposed to en-route protection) to commercial or military shipping. None of these involves fighting with other warships, not any more.
There is absolutely no point in anybody trying to challenge the USN supremacy by building a bigger and badder fleet. More probably, everybody else will move away from the outdated concept of naval warfare, subsequently resulting in withering of the USN as well (but not any time soon).
Less probably, somebody will bother to invent a type of missile (be it a complex stealthy flying thing or a dirt-cheap suicide boat) that cannot be countered by warship defenses, and use that either to sink the USN, or offer enough risk of this happening that the USN will be retired.
Only in a scenario where the civilization significantly devolves technologically and industrially would actual naval combat return as a viable warfighting method. Of course, that may also happen when the oil finally runs out. I wouldn't really count on it, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Of course, that may also happen when the oil finally runs out.
No, at that point, the US will break out the top secret Ketchup-powered engines they've been developing, but keeping from the rest of the world.
The point about the nearest available ship arriving to render aide (be it Oberth, Miranda, or whatever) being better than nothing is a good one. And yes... they could've done a HECK of alot. Medical teams could have assisted the remainder of the Enterprise's medical staff. They could've begun beaming down supplies, generators, etc.
The Thrawn seems to be making (and I don't really know this for sure) is that Starfleet should be composed entirely of the big guns. According to that argument, older, though still very useful, proven vessels should be scrapped just because they're old and not as big or powerful as what can now be produced. Which of course... is stupid. To say that all ships in the fleet should be outfitted for action that they will, in all likelyhood NEVER see is a total waste of resources.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: No, at that point, the US will break out the top secret Ketchup-powered engines they've been developing, but keeping from the rest of the world.
Come on you know that they are NOT ketchup-powered. It's all Mustard-Gas from the secret Iraqi wells.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Less probably, somebody will bother to invent a type of missile (be it a complex stealthy flying thing or a dirt-cheap suicide boat) that cannot be countered by warship defenses, and use that either to sink the USN, or offer enough risk of this happening that the USN will be retired.
That's actually very unlikely: after the USS Cole was attacked via suicide bomber, most of the navy's destroyers (probably all their ships) had the Phalanx anti-missile systems altered so the (insanely powerful) machine guns could fire at approaching ships and at shore positions.
Unless the anti-ship missile is completely radar invisible, ships are here to stay in some form or another (though, unlike Starfleet, the tendency is towards smaller multirole vessels).
What's hard to fathom with starfleet is why their older ships seem to be barely better than they were in the movie era -with the exception of the Lakota, the Excelsiors were mostly cannon fodder in the war. I dont think we've ever seen an Excelsior even fire torpedos (onscreen) after STVI and no Miranda has used (onscreen again) it's rollbar phasers after STII.
A Miranda should be able to dish out a withering amount of firepower (three phaser banks in the saucer, two in the rollbar and the torpedo pod fires both fore and aft)- it should be almost as tough a ship (with a century of refits) as the Defiant- if not as durable or manuverable.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Actually the Mirandas (or those like the Reliant) are more powerful than you think. It has six phaser bank emplacements on the saucer (each with two turrets), the phaser cannons on the rollbar which fire both fore and aft. Four torpedo lanchers (two fore, two aft) and two additional ventral phaser turrets underneath the impulse engines.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
....Except when there are no under-impulse emitters (those seemed to be in the original Reliant model only, and disappeared somehow soon thereafter), and when the aft torpedo tubes are replaced by impulse engines.
I don't really see a consistent dissing of Excelsiors in the battle scenes; NOBODY ever fires torpedoes in the big DS9 battles, and Excelsiors and Akiras perform more or less similarly in phaser battles. And the Mirandas probably cannot help the fact that they have no shielding in the modern sense.
The 24th century Trek space combat actually closely resembles pre-WWI naval fighting theories and practices. Pre-dreadnought ships had a great range of dissimilar guns aboard, so that there was no clear-cut "engagement range" - the ships could move back and forth to bring more or less of their guns to range. Primitive fire control was unable to make the biggest, longest-ranged guns truly useful in such fighting. All sorts of smallish, fast-moving "gunboats" could then partake in the action, Trek style, resulting in battles that began with gigantic parade formations and ended in uncontrollable melees. (Also, torpedoes were the shortest-ranged weapons in that battlefield, like they seem to be in Trek!)
When fighting pre-WWI style, the side that fails to bring every last of its vessels to the fight is the underdog. Quality of guns, boilers or armor is largely irrelevant and cannot be made use of - only quantity of guns counts. This is very much how things in DS9 seem to play out, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm fond of the idea, sort of hinted at in the DS9 technical manual, that some Mirandas have had those rollbar phasers replaced with Defiant-like pulse phaser cannons; but there's nothing to support such a claim.
Actually, I think my interpretation of "Defiant-like" is unsupported even by the book, which just says "pulse phasers," which could just be an explanation for their odd effect in Wrath of Khan. (Though, of course, the Enterprise's fired in exactly the same manner.) Anyway, I wouldn't have complained, is I guess what I'm saying; not that baseless speculation is something new to this particular thread.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It would be nice to acknowledge the existence of different "calibers" of phasers, even if the Reliant ones really weren't the sort of super-cannon fanfic has made them to be.
Something on that vein could still be done in ENT, where the hero ship seems to have primary and secondary batteries, the latter mounted closer to the saucer rim and usually employed for "love pats". Perhaps only "super-battleships" like the Galaxy class feature a uniform battery of the best and biggest guns? (There clearly is some truth to our �ber-Stormtrooper's idea that the select few hero ships are significantly more powerful than the rest.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I don't know why the size of the fleet is an issue, thats not the point, its the dedication to building ships that befit its status thats the issue here. Sternbach in the Star Trek fact files stated the Warbird was "twice the size with half the crew, more heavily armed but slower" In All good things, 30 romulan (warbirds) are deployed to the Neutral zone whereas 15 federation starships are sent, including the 90 year old obsolete Soyuz class Bozeman. As for the Cardassian fleet being a third world navy, what do you base this on? Keldon and Galor class ships may not be a match for a Galaxy, but then the Federation only has six of them, which is the whole point again!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
As I said, Cardassian military forces have never scored any verifiable victories. Their weapons fire doesn't hurt Federation vessels. Their aggressions aren't major news in the UFP; their zany antics cause headache to a lowly commander on DS9, rather than to mighty admirals back on Earth. Only desperation stunts like fake weapons of mass destruction or lopsided alliances with evil superpowers allow them any political leverage at all. They really are like the Nazis *without* the mighty German industry to back up their bolstering.
No matter if the Feds have only six Galaxies, that is sufficient for handling ninety Galors, as per "Chain of Command"! (And if each Nebula can handle fifteen as well...)
In short, the Cardassians never were a threat, until the Dominion upgunned them. And now they are gone for good.
And "status" is irrelevant. The Feds always triumph, which is sufficient proof that their approach to starship procurement is the correct one. Heck, the "obsolete" Bozeman apparently survives every superbattle in which she partakes!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Actually, I think my interpretation of "Defiant-like" is unsupported even by the book, which just says "pulse phasers," which could just be an explanation for their odd effect in Wrath of Khan. (Though, of course, the Enterprise's fired in exactly the same manner.)
I think the same thing: The Miranda does not sport Definat weaponry (that seems best equiped for smaller, more agile starships).
It's likely that the notion of :pulse phasers" did not originate with the Defiant project, but that class of pulse phaser was a radical re-thinking of existing technology.
quote:And "status" is irrelevant. The Feds always triumph, which is sufficient proof that their approach to starship procurement is the correct one. Heck, the "obsolete" Bozeman apparently survives every superbattle in which she partakes!
The Feds triumphing may be equally a result of how they deploy their forces in large engagments (fighters, then cruisers, them small destroyers escorting key ships, more cruisers).
Miranda class ships dont seem to be in with the first wave of the fleet- what would be the point to that?
The Bozeman survives because of the likability of Captain Frasier.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: In All good things, 30 romulan (warbirds) are deployed to the Neutral zone whereas 15 federation starships are sent, including the 90 year old obsolete Soyuz class Bozeman.
I've only seen the cut-down-to-two-episodes version of AGT, but isn't there a stalemate between the Feds and the Romulans there? If the Federation has sent it's usual mixture while the Romulans have sent twice as many better-than-the-galaxy-class ships, surely the Romulans would just ignore Starfleet and head to the anomoly? I know the Romulans are cautious, but not THAT much.
And, to be slightly serious (which is missing the point of putting the Bozeman in every fight ever), we have no proof that the Bozeman mentioned in AGT, Generations et al is the Kelsey Grammar-captained Soyez class from Cause & Effect.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
We hear Captain Kelsey's voice in First Contact and it appears that he still captains the Bozeman, but it seems likely that it's a new ship with the same name.
Kirk wasn't the only studmuffin of the time.
Warbirds may indeed be twice the size, but there's also a huge hole in the middle of the ship. I don't recall the exact line, but if all that was said in AGT was "they've sent 15 warbirds", that doesn't necessarily mean 15 D'deridex classes. Warbird could be a more general term covering a variety of classes that we've not seen yet.
You're also forgetting about the scout ships that Vrenak and Jarok used. They weren't shuttles, they were starships, much like Danubes are starships. So Romulans do have more than one type of ship...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Scout and Science ships of the Romulan fleet ae indeed much larger than a Runabout but relativly puny compared with a even a Miranda class.
The term "Warbird" does indeed apply to more than one class of Romulan ship- or the Enterprise C was really outgunned at Nerandra Three (facing three Warbirds, as Captain Garrett reported)...but that would make the ships shown on TNG really outdated (that does not seem the case at all).
"Warbird" is probably a term used to describe the battleship of the Romulan fleet.
I'd also speculate that there are hundreeds of lesser ships operating within Romulan space that they dont allow the Federation to see (how better to make the Federation second-guess Romulan fleet strengths?).
It's also likely that the all the major powers use many classes of starship we nevr got to see due to bugetary constraints (the Klingons in particular!).
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Tomalak's Terrix was certainly a warbird. I think the Federation fleet is a symptom of Federation pre-war policy, a good analogy would be the United States before world war II, with Rosevelt saying "We're building refrigerators while the rest of the world is building bombs"
The Federation has obviously invested its resources elsewhere before the Romulans returned and the Borg, Domminion encounters, and are now counting the cost. The major powers of the Quadrant probably knew that even if they attacked the Federation could quickly mobilise new shipbuilding pograms much as the USA did following Perl Harbour when its latent industrial might was awakened.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Federation enjoyed a long span or relative peace and extreme prosperty after the romulans went into seclusion. Even the wars with the Tzenkethi nad cardassians seem to have been intense -but brief- afairs.
The Wolf 359 probably woke up a generation to the dangers their overconfident Federation faced and the peacetime industrial might slowly turned towards military advancment and ship building.
Really, it's thanks to Q that the Federation survivde the Dominion War at all. If First Contact with the Dominion was made waaay back at the start of TNG, it would have all been over within weeks.
While not canon, writers from DS9 have stated that the Dominion knew of the Federation foe some time prior to the wormhole's discovery and always planned to defeat them...just not so soon.
They always intended the Dominion to be the "anti-Federation". Establishing First Contact with lesser races and taking over their wolds into the Dominion as chattle.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It's a bit difficult to see how Q's prompting actually helped the Federation. It's not as if the ships that fought the Dominion were built after "Q Who?" or anything...
Going by the designs and registries we see, the fleet facing the Dominion was essentially the same fleet that had faced the Cardassians. Plus a scattering of Defiants and at least one Intrepid, of course.
Nor is there obvious proof of increased military alertness overall. The fleet that faced the Borg in "First Contact" seemed quite similar in size and composition to that facing the Borg in "Best of Both Worlds". A scattering of Defiants again being the less than significant exception. Warning times seemed similar, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Galaxy Class and several others would not have been in service during the Cardassian Wars. But its possible that the Nebbies were. And certainly the Ambassadors.
And of course the Federation is investing resources elsewhere. Colonies, exploratory efforts, etc. Starfleet is not solely devoted to its military efforts. This is not a moral failing on their part. Q described them as complacent, and quite possibly they were, having enjoyed the aforementioned period of peace. But Starfleet's and the Federation's strength is shown in their ability to adapt to new situations.
(I've held off mentioned this thus far, but I feel compelled to do so... the real reason Starfleet won and why we've only ever seen one Romulan Warbird and why we don't see tons of newer Federation starship designs is because this is a friggin' TV show. The script says the good guys win and budget concerns limit what they can do wth ship designs. Sheesh.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The fleet that faced the Borg in "First Contact" seemed quite similar in size and composition to that facing the Borg in "Best of Both Worlds". A scattering of Defiants again being the less than significant exception. Warning times seemed similar, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Errorenous (too low) registries on the FC ships aside, the fleet that fought the Borg at the Typhon sector must have been much larger than the one from BOBW.
Starfleet has several days in BBW to assemble stsrships for defense but it seems less than a day in FC to intercept the Borg (assuing the Enterprise is not screwing arounf the NZ more than a few hours after Picard's briefing).
After all, it took Enterprise E almost three hours to arrive at the Typhon sector (longer as the fight had been waged all the way to sector 001) and there were still about 20 ships left to continue the fight (that's assuming Starfleet did not have some sort of "home fleet" waiting at 001 just in case- if so, the ships that cofronted the Borg in the Typhon sector may have been all wiped out just as those at Wolf 359).
That means that either Starfleet had FAR more ships readily available to confront the Borg, their new ship designs are far more durable than those of BOBW, starfleet's weaponry became far more effective and powerful (as it bypasses or eliminated the Borg Subspace Field), Starfleet had kicked their ship production into overdrive, pulled many of their more powerful starships from exploration duties along the frontier to strengthen defenses of core worlds, or (likely) some combonation of all of these factors.
All of which Q could have/would have forseen as needed in the upcoming conflict with the Dominion.
...Of course, it could just as easily have been the Prophets meddeling with Sisko's life to bring him to Bajor's aid at the right time. Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: The major powers of the Quadrant probably knew that even if they attacked the Federation could quickly mobilise new shipbuilding pograms much as the USA did following Perl Harbour when its latent industrial might was awakened.
Actually, most of the major U.S. Naval combatants of WW2 were already in the water undergoing sea trials or on the slips being built before the U.S.S. Ward opened fire on a Japanese sub that morning. The US had already seen the handwriting on the wall and was in the process of modernization and new construction. It is a common misconception that the U.S. woke up on December 8th and started building the war machine to strike back.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I agree. The US actually started building the two fleet idea way back in 1939. They were just completed in during WW2. However, according to many historians, the US had half of the total world industrial strength. Whereas the second place Industry giant was Germany with only 15% of the world's total.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(Mirandas aren't that much bigger than the Defiant, and various DS9 battle sequences find them zipping around with more or less equal agility.)
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
^^ Yeah, thanks to those extra impulse engines in the back of the weapons pod. Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The US did have a mighty industrial base but it was building cars not aircraft, indeed Rosevelts military advisors advised him that if the Japanese invaded they would not have enough bullets (!) to fend them off, with any invasion force being able to get as far inland as Chicargo before it could be stopped. Perhaps a Betazed analogy there. I didn't know Star Trek was a TV show, maybe we should all disscuss the budgetry issues of Paramount pictures instead, that'd be fun.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
As an aside and kind of linked to Timo's observations about pre-dreadnought combat, it may be worth noting that the RN prior to Fisher's reforms had a huge number of elderly cruisers on various foreign stations. These would have been effectively useless in any kind of European fleet engagement or with modern European cruisers, but against local forces and the small units which other European powers (regardless of their battlefleet strength) could afford to send, they would have been useful.
Equally, it's worth noting that were there are relatively few major technological changes, designs stay current for many decades, provided they have at least some room for expansion. Look at the changing armament of HMS Warrior (of 1860) or the massive changes made to the American Essex class carriers over their lifetimes.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The way Klingons have ended up with so many ship designs compared to the Romulans is fairly accidental but quite interesting (well, no, but...)
First movie comes along, and they build a Klingon Ship. Another one comes along, and they build a Romulan ship. But what's this, it's now a Klingon ship? Okay, they've now got two.
Flast foward to TNG and we find they've used both those, but it's high time they got a 24th century one, damnit. So we get that too.
Flash future forward to "All Good Things", and we need a future Klingon ship. So let's build one of those, because we're all crazy.
Back then forward flash to DS9, and we're about to make the Klingons the new...Klingons. They need a big scary battlecruiser. Let's take that future ship and modify it. And bam, we've got 4 ship classes.
The Romulans never had that. They didn't appear at all in the movies, so their first appearence in TNG demanded a brand new ship. And very nice it was too. There was never a storyline reason to build another, until Nemesis. And the only reason we got new Warbird designs there was, damnit, it's a movie and we need to spend money.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, they did get a shuttle/runabout, and the apparently modular scout ship.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, the Romulans did get two plot-driven designs in TNG, the scout and the science ship. This sort of gradual fleshing-out was more than the Klingons ever got - deliberate instead of accidental, purpose-built instead of adapted from a design conceived for a wholly different purpose. Yeah, admittedly, the science ship was a conversion of the scout, but not of an alien ship of completely different original scale and purpose.
Such dedication did not really help the Romulans to the forefront, though. When Klingons got freighters, they only got modified alien ones. Even Cardassians got better than that. But both at least *got* freighters. And patrol ships. And space stations. And an impressive array of new props and sets. And all that without the benefit of a movie spot.
In some ways, our good guest aliens are in a luckier situation than our heroes. They get interesting aspects of their cultures and militaries explored, with a given aspect seldom revisited. The heroes are stuck with whatever cubicle they occupy in the Starfleet hierarchy, often for seven seasons at an end. ST:FC did something of a disservice to Starfleet, giving us hordes of "new" GP starships when all that effort could have been put on some truly novel and interesting aspect of our heroes' organization.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The Klingon Freighters in DS9's final season where re-painted Cardassian freighters from return to grace. I'm baffled at the assumption that 'not all warbirds are warbirds but may or may not be shuttles' If Admiral Nackamura advises Picard that 30 warbirds are being 'pulled from their usual patrol routes and re-deployed to the neutral zone' he should have pointed out that only a couple where large and powerfull starships and the rest of them where probably smaller but also called warbirds and that he shouldn't worry about it!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, we at least have a reason to think that not all "warbirds" should be of D'eridex class. The E-C faced vessels called "warbirds" at a time when the D'eridex either did not exist, or was not known to the UFP but *should* have become well known indeed in the timeline where the fate of the E-C was known, yet still was unknown in "The Neutral Zone"...
...Although "TNZ" arguably took place in a timeline where the fate of the E-C was unknown.
In any case, "warbird" is a generic designation that Vulcans also like to slap onto some Klingon designs in the 22nd century. Whether it is as generic as "cruiser", or as generic as "starship"... Hard to tell. Certainly it would be unlikely to only encompass ships twice the size of the Galaxy class.
The highest number of 'birds we've seen at once is something like half a dozen, in the supposed fleet of twenty in "The Die is Cast". Did the twenty include the Cardassian ships or not? The debate rages on. In any case, the Romulans did not commit 30 D'eridex vessels to our scrutiny even in the most heated Dominion War battles.
(Edit: Whoops! Leaky italics corrected!)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I can see where your coming from, but i'd rather go by what i've seen on screen. Whenever the joint fleets where in action we saw no other classes of Romulan ships in action. The fact remains that when you watch what you leave behind and examine that federation fleet, or sacrifice of angels, if you digitally edited that image to remove the five galaxies, it would pretty much resemble a Kirk era fleet, and that is a situation not befitting a power of the UFP's prestige, also, any comparrison to a modern day navy is mute, because budgets and money exist in the real world, not in Star Trek where humans work 'to better themslves' Also, if anyone knows the state and capabilities of the Romulan fleet its Sloan, whose chief mole is the head of the Tal Shiar, and he tells Bashir that the Federation is in big trouble if the Romulans drop out.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think there's more than six in orbit of Romulus in the episode where the Belaraphon attends the conference there (on DS9- I cant recall the Section 31 episode's name offhand).
I think ther biggest disservice to the Rommies was making that godawful Valdor design instead of just showing the Warbird at it's true scale.
Besides, the Valdor and it's red colored sister ship were pretty useless in combat.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, a Kirk-era fleet with Akiras, Defiants, Steamrunners, Sabers, etc. In fact, what other TMP era ships are seen in the fleet other than the Excelsior and the Miranda classes? If we're going by what we see on screen, we can argue that, by the time of the Dominion war, the only TMP era designs still in service are those two. IIRC, no Oberths were seen in those fleet movements, nor were any of the Kitbashes.
Money as such may not exist in the Federation, but it sure exists amongst other races, many of which the Federation likely does business with. The Federation still has to deal with resource limits, energy production, etc.
Noone said that Warbird may apply to shuttles or scouts. It was simply pointed out that there *are* those kinds of ships in the Ronulan fleet and that Warbird is likely a description that applies to several classes of ships, just as the term Battlecruiser or Escort applies to several classes of Federation vessel.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
There aren't that many new designs in the fleet movements, maybe less than ten of all those designs combined. The 'Centaur class' is frequently seen and that looks Excelsior era and is designated a destroyer, it also takes serious punishment from a Jem Hadar fighter and seems all round pretty fragile. Most of the new ship designs seem to be internal defense ships, probably why we only see most of them in the 001 encounter. This would mean that Excelsiors and Mirranda's form the backbone of the federations deep-space fleet.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Akiras accompany a Defiant to to edge of Romulan space to retake the Prometheus. Other FC ships are seen in all the fleet formations during the war (and I only recall seeing the Centaur a couple of times way in the background... certainly not frequently).
Saying that Mirandas and Excelsiors *must* form the backbone of the fleet is an incredible assumption. Forgetting the fact that there's no evidence to back up what you say about the new designs being internal defense ships, what about all the other classes we've never seen on screen that may not have been a part of the fleets we saw? In addition, there are those we have seen, like the Nebulas, Ambassadors, etc. The Federation has had decades to squat those design out. There are also alot more than 6 Galaxies by the time of the Dominion War.
EDIT: I should also add that there are a number of ships seen in the BoBW wreckage that appear to be contemporaries of the Nebula and that use then-modern design elements such as signage and escape pods. Surely Starfleet has a number of those vessels in service. We have no way of knowing ow powerful they are, but they are definitely not old.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Yes they were kit-bash proto-nebulas as seen in Riker's ready room in future imperfect. It isn't a massive assumption by any stretch to assume they make up the spine of the fleet, we only have what we've seen on screen to go by and every instance of a massive federation fleet action its been the Excelsior roadshow plus four galaxies.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
It's apparent from these images that while there are still a significant number of Excelsiors and Mirandas left, the modern designs outweight them significantly.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"Yes they were kit-bash proto-nebulas as seen in Riker's ready room in future imperfect."
A) I don't understand the sentance. B) Nothing in Future Imperfect was real.
If we assume that the model was taken from Riker's memory and is thus a real starfleet design, Riker having the model in his office doesn't make it an old design. It could have been state of the art when Riker went on the away mission, thus being fresh in his mind.
Posted by FuturamaGuy (Member # 968) on :
^I think hes trying to somehow impress us by telling us where the ships originate from. My guess was always that they originated from the Grand PooBaa of HeeBee GeeBee Clan, but fortunately, Thawn has set me (and perhaps others here) straight.
Same with below.
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: The Klingon Freighters in DS9's final season where re-painted Cardassian freighters from return to grace.
To which I say, quizzically (and with a cocked head, no less), "really?"
Do tell. Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
"Matters more urgent caused my absence, now witness the result, outposts destroyed, expansion of sarcastic comment....everywhere"
the proto-nebula was a kitbash intended to be the melbourne, hence its appearance in his future ready-room. Buy the compannion if you don't believe me, or ask my mum.
As for the screenshots, one second scenes from massive battle sequences. I have a screenshot from the eppisode of Next Gen where Worf goes to look for his father, showing Bashir wearing pink slippers. That proves just as much.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
You little twat. I know exactly what the proto-Nebula model is. I know the episode you're talking about. And what I'm saying is that whole episode was an alien-induced fantasy of a future that didn't actually exist. You can't use it to assume anything.
And how many times have you said "we've only got what's on screen to go by"? Here we actually have ships on screen, with actual creator commentary on how they were made and the fact that they were supposed to be cousins to the Galaxy Class... and now it doesn't count because they were only on screen for a second.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I wonder if we aren't close to the point where further milking of a dry issue will only cause throbbing pain?
I mean, all the discussions Thrawn has recently sparkled have been great fun, for a while. We're starving for Trek things to discuss, what with ENT not giving us much... We can all enjoy some good-natured trolling on pages 1 through 5. But if we get insults at the page 8 mark, I'll reach for the padlock. If we get counterinsults, then that's it.
Aaaanyhow, couldn't we have this same stuff on the other side of the mirror, on the Star Wars part of the forum? We're sort of stuck here anyway; change of POV might liven things up again. This is all implicitly ST vs SW stuff anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: As for the screenshots, one second scenes from massive battle sequences. I have a screenshot from the eppisode of Next Gen where Worf goes to look for his father, showing Bashir wearing pink slippers. That proves just as much.
Fine, I challenge you to produce screenshots showing a nearly-exclusive Excelsior/Miranda fleet. But that was just about every single fleet shot available at DITL. If Excelsiors were so prevalent, I'd expect one of the shots there to show them outnumber the modern designs. The ball's in your court.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(Isn't Enterprise chock full of nerd things lately?)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I guess so.
But then again, they are the Reeves-Stevens kind of nerd things, sort of overthought and pre-chewed. Where's the fun in watching a show written by our spitting images? Where's the controversy? The fascinating internal conflict deriving from a deeply uncaring writer attitude towards technobabble? The tantalizing illogic of episodic writing?
At least in matters of "unseen ST background universe" nature, there is enough ambiguity to feed more trolls than you need to storm Helm's Deep...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: I have a screenshot from the eppisode of Next Gen where Worf goes to look for his father, showing Bashir wearing pink slippers. That proves just as much.
White trainers, actually. Your case is void.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
"I've done far worse than insult you back, I've hurt you, and i intend to go on hurting you, until i leave you, as you left me, as you left her, marooned for all eternity in the centre of a dead planet...burried alive...burried alive..."
The proto nebula never really existed because the Melbourne was re-designed as an Excellsior in Emissary, even if it did, it wasn't a new class of ship it was a neb with two extra engines instead of a sensor pod. They were indeed pink slippers, there's an interview with Siddig in the DS9 box set where he says they used to wear the slippers on the wooden sets to avoid noise. The screenshots were much appreciated, but I really don't have the facility in work to bring my DVD player in, the scene were they leave the starbase to reclaim DS9 is quite a wide-angles shot and its pretty exclusively Excelsiors. Case for the defense impresses me though, keep it up, right up!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
You are aware that there are three proto-Nebula starships, right? There's the original one from "The Best of Both Worlds, Part 2" and "Emissary" that had two extra nacelles attached to the end of the extended secondary hull. There's the desktop model that appeared in Riker's ready room in "Future Imperfect" that differed from the first in that the extra nacelles were mounted higher. And then there's the second desktop model that sat in Sisko's DS9 ready room along side models of his Saratoga and a Daedalus-class ship. This one differed from the other two by dropping the two extra nacelles and replacing them with a pod. Cite with pictures: Ex Astris Scientia.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Yeah I've seen the shots, but they're all blatently Nebula's though. I didn't raise the proto-nebula thing anyway and don't see how it impacts the disscusion. Bored, need Vulcan nightlife...
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
No, but you are the one who said:
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: The proto nebula never really existed because the Melbourne was re-designed as an Excellsior in Emissary, even if it did, it wasn't a new class of ship it was a neb with two extra engines instead of a sensor pod.
While it can be successfully argued that that particular proto-Nebula didn't exist, at least one of the proto-Nebula was an actual ship and can be seen on-screen (albeit blurry and a bit obscured). And if the existence of a model in the "real" timeline is considered acceptable evidence, them you have two of them are out there.
And as an aside, the differences between the proto-Nebula ships and the regular Nebula involve more than just two extra nacelles instead of pod. The big thing is that massive secondary hull instead of the more compact and streamlined hull of the regular Nebula starships. I don't know if that's enough to say that proto-Nebula starships should be given their own class or not (I'm leaning towards not at the moment considering the Constitution-class).
Massive Edit Because It's Too Early in the Morning for Me: Dropped Aban because I think he's actually arguing the other side. I think. Also, Thrawn, you were the one to bring up the proto-Nebula starships. Aban, if I'm reading him correctly on the previous page, was referring to the other Galaxy-based starships: Freedom, Springfield, Challenger, Cheyenne, and New Orleans. All incorporate Galaxy components and can be reasonably construed to be contemporary to the Galaxy-class.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Respect, but none of these ships are seen in the battles of the DS9 era, which is where my analysis of the 'modern' starfleets capabilities come from. Although the New Orleans class Routledge is mentioned in Nor the Battle to the Strong, I don't think any of these designs have ever been seen on screen in anything other than as kit bash debres. I can appreciate the counter arguement though and expect foul-mouthed abuse to follow! Ho Hum what fun....
[ March 11, 2005, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Grand Admiral Thrawn ]
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Just because they aren't seen doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there. After all, I doubt that there's only one Sovereign-class, one Nova-class, and two Intrepid-class starships, yet those are the amounts of each class we ever saw in this era. Other ships apparently missing from the fleet scenes are the Constellation-class, Oberth-class, and Ambassador-class starships. We may not have seen them in any of the fleets hanging out around Deep Space Nine, but there still all the other fleets that are busy elsewhere.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I agree, but these ships aren't involved en mass in front line actions. Either there aren't that many of them (deffinantly the case with the Sovereign I assume) or they are not suitable for any kind of combat (the Nova, the Equinox had to hide from a bird of prey once according to janeway, what chance it would have against the Jem Hadar i don't know!!!) Either point served my arguement about 'most' of starfleets ships being elderly and outclassed by its rivals.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I'd imagine that there were more fronts in the Dominion War than the one that just happened to be centered on Deep Space Nine. We know stuff was going on near Betazed and Benzar (or was it Bolarus?). And, depending on where the Breen are located relative to the Cardassian Union, there's another potential hotbed of combat towards the end of the war.
We never saw the make up of the fleets in these arenas. However, given how close occupied Betazed apparently was to Earth, Vulcan, and Andorian, I would imagine that Starfleet may have loaded the fleets protecting the core worlds by pointing an inordinate amount of newer ships there. Hell, this might have been with the Enterprise-E was. In Insurrection he lamented that they never explored anymore, and we know he wasn't hanging around Deep Space 9.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: I didn't raise the proto-nebula thing anyway and don't see how it impacts the disscusion.
Actually, you were the first one to mention it.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
True, but the fleet that attempted to retake DS9 was a combination of two fleets, one of which had previously been deployed along the Vulcan border. I think it was Benzar and the Romulans liberated it, its a shame the Breen weren't explored more, we never even managed to see their cloaking device in action, although this is probably how they managed to attack Earth.
When Aban mentioned the ships in the garveyard that resembled a Galaxy, the only one of those Kitbashes I thought resembled a Galaxy was the Proto-Nebula, but I 'thought' that was what was being referred to. I apologise for any distress I may have caused...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: Either point served my arguement about 'most' of starfleets ships being elderly and outclassed by its rivals.
The enemy ships that we saw, at any rate.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I said they resembled the Nebula. Because they're all older than the Galaxy. But the creators of the models said they were supposed to use many of the design elements of the Galaxy Class. And many of them do, including saucers and nacelles, indicating that they are, while not state of the art during Wolf 359, certainly nothing to sneeze at. And given the fact that they've been around for a little while, we can assume that there are a reasonable number of them in service. No, we never saw them in the DS9 fleets... but we have on-screen evidence of their existance.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: True, but the fleet that attempted to retake DS9 was a combination of two fleets, one of which had previously been deployed along the Vulcan border.
Yeah, the Fifth Fleet was pulled from Vulcan and joined with the Second Fleet for Operation Return. The Ninth Fleet was also supposed to go with them, but it didn't arrive in time. Later, it would be based at Deep Space Nine; earlier, we saw the Seventh Fleet get decimated. The highest fleet number we heard was ten, and they were the idiots that let Betazed get conquered. So, assuming that there are only ten fleets, we've only seen about half the combat-capable ships in Starfleet (assuming each fleet has roughly the same number of ships). Still plenty of places out there for newer, powerful ships to be hanging out.
Edit: Too many people too quick on the draw this morning. I need coffee.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Psyliam, I bow to the observations of a fellow scouser. Do you not think Rubber Soul resembles the great link?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Scouser"?
"Fellow"? Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Just to throw another wrench in the works...
Fleet numbers might have nothing to do with ships, but admirals. In WW2, the only difference between the 3rd and 5th fleets were the admiral in charge at the time.
Same ships, different I.I.C. (Idiot in Charge)
[ March 11, 2005, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: WizArtist II ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Just because they're not there doesn't mean they don't exist. For all we know the fleets near DS9 are just old ships and doesn't represent the whole fleet. Look at it this way:
In World War II, the US had ten new battleships and about a dozen WWI era battleships. The old New York class battleships were in the Atlantic, so if you go by what you see in the Atlantic, the US had no fleet carriers, a handful of escort carriers, massive amounts of convoy escorts of varying size and two or three older battleships.
For all we know the 2nd fleet might be full of New Orleans, Nebluas, Novas, Ambassadors, Cheyennes, and newer classes and no Excelsiors or Mirandas.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I always got the impression the seventh fleet was something of an elite unit as it always seems to be involved in the major off-screen battles, although it does take several maulings. Also there's something in the way O'brien reacts when Nog questions weather or not they can handle the dominion. "Your damn right they can!" Perhaps Starfleet threw all its eggs in one basket and sent a fleet of top of the line ships to the Tyra system, this could be what made the defeat all the more devestating...
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