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Originally posted by Sol System:
I look at it every time I am in the store, but I am always intimidated by bookstore employees, and so I buy snobby rock magazines instead.

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Like Tiger Beat.

I've seen it in stores a few times, but I knowq that someone will just scan the whole damn thing and post it online (and probably with smart and needed corrections nad updates) as soon as I do.

Then the book with go into the box o' books I cant believe I actually own- fan designed uber-monstroity ship design books mostly but that "Voyager's scripts" is in there as well.
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
I bought it. I like looking at the book but there are some problems with the editing. It reminds me of those slick rock-star magazines that are put together more as fluff pieces.
 

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Posted by LastGuardian (Member # 1684) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane:
So, er, what does the Federation look like?

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quote:

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But is that an update of the earlier version (as I've not seen the prior one, I cant say) or is it something he came up with from scratch?

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The latter.

Or, the real stars and other highlights of our galaxy of course stay unchanged, but the original coordinate system error in the Maps is corrected for Charts. Just about anything and everything relating to Trek is changed, though.

Basis for this change is the load of new data on that universe, largely outdating everything in the Maps, from relative locations to relative distances to planet classification systems to sector hierarchies. Also, any onscreen graphics depicting the Trek galaxy are integrated to the Charts if at all possible. What remains of the Maps are the subtle references to the animated series and certain novels.

The look of the two works is different, too (the Charts being a book with some fold-out pages, rather than a collection of "loose-leaf" maps, for one). You'd be hard pressed to guess these come from the same author if it didn't say so on the cover.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
So, Charts is a vast improvment- Does Maps include anything omitted in Charts though (like a location for Starfleet HQ from TOS- stuff mentioned but never actually shown)?

Probably not.

I was thinking of scanning in Charts and adding in whatever I could from the novels: like the location of that purdy starbase you made or the former Thalloian Empire...just for fun really.

As an open source kinda thing, it would need periodic updating.

Mabye some of the stuff from Enterprise could be added in as well (Xindi space) and some notable encounters (like the systems destroyed by the TOS PLanetkiller or the location of the Dyson Sphere system.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
Harrr, it would be a really cool project, Jason. I for one would love to see an interactive map project with (perhaps) specialty maps for each scurvy series. You know just to limit the scope (& canon). Can any of ye landlubbers direct me to the UFP gold on this treasure map?
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Bottom center about a third f the way from the outer rim.

Of course, the Fed could stretch "downward" like a snake "under" the territories of other major powers.

'Course, thats just to be confusing, ya scurvy denebian plasma scrubber! ARRR!


I'm more intrested in photoshopping out the planet listings and making it a template to overlap variants of "envounters", "aincent artifacts", First Contacts" "Non-canon events".

Stuff like that.
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
3-dimensional space is someting that the maps really don't depict. Of course, how can you accurately depict 3 dimensions in a 2 dimensional plane?

I like the idea of territories snaking "above" or below other national groups and star systems.

For fun maps check out Star Trek Dimensions:
http://www.stdimension.org/int/
Specifically the Stellar Cartography section:
http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/cartography.htm
And a possible map of the Enterprise's 5-year mission"
http://www.stdimension.org/Cartography/Source/maphist1.jpg

I thought this site was really cool and e-mailed the guy responsible. I did have a dispute with him over the location of Gamma Hydra. In TOS "The Deadly Years" Gamma Hydra is near the Romulan Neutral Zone and, in Star Trek II the star system is near the Klingon Neutral Zone (in the Kobyashi Maru simulation). I would have moved the star closer to both territories but the explaination I was given is that the star is in the location it really is.

Maybe Klingon territory snaked up and around the Romulans toward Gamma Hydra?
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Or then the supposed alliance between the empires involved a mutual protection pact?

Alternately, the alliance had crumbled by that time already, and Klingons were infamous for using Romulan space for their assorted acts of piracy and mayhem, both against Romulans and any other nearby prey.

Or then we could just say "It's a simulation!" and leave it at that. Hey, in ST6, the Romulans apparently are allies of the Feds. Perhaps the no-win scenario had to be hastily updated when this alliance was formed, with every reference to "those evil Romulans" replaced by one to "those evil Klingons".

In any case, making Gamma Hydra proximal to both empires would complicate things quite a bit, what with it being relatively distant and coreward from Earth. If the Klingon/Romulan border moves that far "northeast", then a map based on "Okudaic" distances will look odd indeed.

Of course, if one drops the assumption of Okudaic distances, which assume that 100 ly is a weeks-long trip, this matters little. TOS is replete with examples of 100 ly being a seconds-long trip! However, the Star Charts (and Christian's map referred above) assume Okudaic scaling because they rely partially on Okudaic onscreen maps...

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Of course, one could also move the Klingons to the other side of the Romulans. It would also put them closer to the Cardassians, explaining various DS9 references.
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
The simulation excuse doesn't wash. You'd want the simulation to be as realistic as possible. Encountering Klingons that close to Gamma Hydra was believable to the cadets.

I like the notion of moving Klingon territory.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
I hate it when TSN make this much sense.

quote:

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Originally posted by HerbShrump:
For fun maps check out Star Trek Dimensions...

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Thanks, Herb, but I too have been following Christian's work for years (well not too much lately). He is, in fact, one of the primary reasons I initially abandoned my own Trek mapping project. He's just SOOO comprehensive.



Which isn't to say that I'm smart enough to have given up completely. Incidentally, I lean towards "Okudaic" (nice) distances for a 1000ly diameter of Federation space.

So, back to Tim's point: I realize the position of the Klingons is East and South of the UFP on Christian's maps and many maps derived from his work (a lot of them, including as previously mentioned Mandel). But why is this? I can't imagine this was an arbitrary decision.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Why not? A lot of the stuff in this field (including Okudaic theories) is fairly arbitary.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
The reason for the Southeastern Klingons is only "second-order arbitrary"; namely, both Probert and Sternbach/Okuda graphics traditionally and consistently place the Klingons there, with the Romulans to the Northeast. You can see many of these graphics on Christian's site. Note that Christian's version of the Probert "Conspiracy" map has been tampered with, a few names added here and there. But the labels for the Romulan and Klingon homeworlds were there to begin with (although the Klingon world was labeled "Kling" back then...).

It beats me how Probert originally ended up with this map layout that differed from preexisting FJ or Mandel works on the Klingon/Romulan issue. Later maps have been fairly true to the Probert thing, though (and there's the rumor of TNG Art Dept actually maintaining a felt-pen map of their own for the purposes of keeping track).

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
Star Fleet Battles, produced by Franz Joseph Designs, and the original Star Trek Technical Manual placed Romulan territory to the "west" of the Federation and the Klingons to the "east" with the Tholians at the edge of the galaxy to the "south."

Placing these two territories on opposite sides of the Federation would, in my mind, hinder any technological or cultural exchange between the two. What, did Starfleet/The Federation allow Klingons and Romulans to fly across the Federation?

Plus, kinda hard for those two empires to fight each other being that far apart.

Of course, that didn't stop the Romulans and Klingons from sending troops and ships to Bajor and Cardassia, which these new star charts place on the opposite side of the quadrant.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
I've moved the 'creative' portion of my tinkering to here and will make efforts not to confuse the two. I do remain curious about a more northerly placement of the Klingons (particularly in light of DS9 references and Gamma Hydra). Is the 'Northwestern' placement of DS9, Bajor and Cardassia similarly sourced to onscreen maps? I'm also curious about the extent of several of these empires and how we know/guess their sizes.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
The placement of DS9 to Southwest of Earth (and thus more or less to the same "latitude" with the Klingon heartland) is not as rigorously based in onscreen maps as the relative positions of Romulan and Klingon homeworlds are.

There are references to the Cardassians being West of Earth in Art Department thinking, but (apart from the "adjusted" Probert map which was seen in some form in early DS9 episodes) there is no map that would show Cardassia/Bajor and Earth in the same picture.

However, the extensive war zone maps of late DS9 show a broad U shape for the Dominion-controlled area, with the Cardassians in the Southwestern branch, and with the Romulan symbol in the Northeastern corner. Combined with the dialogue of the strategic situation at that point, this supports an interpretation where Earth sits in the middle of that U, and is being flanked by a devious Eastern attack that makes use of the RNZ.

This would also match the known scaling of that war zone map (based on Bajor-Cardassia 5 ly distance as per the DS9 Tech Manual) and the DS9 TM references to "UFP core regions" lying 50 ly from Bajor.

As for Klingons accessing Cardassia, it was explicitly stated that they "had come a long way" ("Way of the Warrior"), and shown that they relied on Federation support before embarking on the final leg of their voyage of conquest. It was also shown that they had traveled under cloak.

With Romulans, there are references to "a long way" as well ("Visionary"), as well as repeated instances of cloaked penetration of UFP space. There is always the "Birthright" controversy of Romulan space being a shuttle-hop away from DS9, though. But perhaps that Yridian just had a very good shuttle?

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Well, it takes us back to the three dimensional aspect of space that cant be translated well as a 2-D map.
The Klingons could have crossed unclaimed territory "under" federation space to get at Cardassia (also explaining how they could have effectivlt fought the Federation while occupying planets in the Cardassian Union- whatever that is in planetary numbers(?).

Despite the crowded way most maps of the major powers are shown, there must remain a vast unclaimed space between each for interstellar commerce and exploration to be possible without having to travel through someone's "backyard".

Otherwise, a small(ish) empire like the Cardassians/Romulans would find itself boxed in by hostile neighbors.

The Yidrian ship in "Birthright" semed prety sunstansial to me- for a civillian ship (consider those dinky Ferengi shuttlepods that get to DS9 just fine from Fereginar).

Thinking on it, mabye the "badlands" served as a kind of natural buffer between Cardassian Union and the UFP- I'd imagine more than a few ships have been lost there over the decades.
 

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Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
 
Trek empires seem to have an overbearing habit to claim open space as their territory (which would be equivalent to nations on Earth drawing borders through the oceans). But I assume the intergalactically acknowledged sovereign territories would still leave legal (empty sectors) as well as illicit loopholes (due to limited sensor resolution and long rections times). So if they are only close enough together, any two empires at opposite sides of the Federation may have cultural exchange.
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Well, even today on Earth, some nations seem to enjoy claiming territorial waters out to 200 miles or so, in order to have special fishing rights or to cause trouble for neighbors or something like that. It makes sense that interstellar nations might try something similar.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
Patrolling/enforcing borders in 3D presents an especially vexing problem. Espcially where potential infiltrators have access to cloaking technology.

Not that Klingons are especially practical or anything, but it just seems impractical to try to wage a war across such a large swath of territory you don't control. You're just begging to have your supply lines cut off. I'm not sure I like the snakiness answers either. What would we be contradicting to shift the Klingons to the "Northeast" of the Romulans?
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Having "northern" Klingons only leads to more problems with them invading the "southeast" Cardassin Union.

Having to patrol huge abounts of 3-D space wouuld at least account for the ol' "only ship in range" bit we've seen sooo often.
Even a (fed-wide) Starfleet of 5000 plus starships (not inconcievable when you take SOA's fleet numbers into consideration) would be spread thin to patrol the borders and resolve conflicts.

That might also explain 100 year old starships serving in Fed and Klingon fleets- anything beats killing your econemy in an endless race to keep your entire fleet "cutting edge" when most ships within an empire's borders would never see serious combat.
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
[QB] Having "northern" Klingons only leads to more problems with them invading the "southeast" Cardassin Union.

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How is that? With the Star Charts map there still is a vast expanse of Federation space between the southeastern Klingons and the southwestern (well, more south-central) Cardassians.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
The DS9 maps as such pose no limitations on the placement of the Klingon Empire. Never is it indicated that a particular maneuver in a given direction would cut the Klingons off DS9, or that Archanis Sector would lie to the South-Southwest of Bellatrix, or anything like that.

However, the Probert map from "Conspiracy" and Keiko's schoolroom shows that planet Kling lies to the South of planet Romulus. Also, Sternbach's DS9 TM maps showing the Klingon and Romulan Empires reflect this relative positioning; however, those maps are not seen onscreen.

No particular logic would prevent the Klingons from surrounding the supposedly relatively compact Romulan space from multiple directions, even if Gamma Hydra and Kling lie on opposite sides of Romulus. Just make the tentacles thick enough not to be cut or blockaded. The Charts could easily be amended to show the Klingons filling the Eastern side of the RNZ and reaching all the way to Gamma Hydra. However, it would not be plausible to have their Empire consist SOLELY of a compact ovoid North of Gamma Hydra!

The remaining option would be to move the entire Romulan Star Empire North of Gamma Hydra, with the Klingon Empire tagging along and coming to rest just South of Gamma Hydra... This would nicely jibe with the ENT idea that Klingons are closer to Earth than Romulans. And all it would contradict would be Sternbach's noncanon DS9 TM maps... And perhaps a few travel time references.

Certainly worth some consideration...

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Concerning the DS9 era, I always got the impression that the Klingon Empire did not have a direct border with the Cardassians, just like depicted in "Star Charts". Especially in "Way of the Warrior", I got the impression that the reason the Klingons used the ruse of guarding the entrance to the wormhole was because they were using DS9 as their staging area for the attack. Fake-Martok said that it had been "a long journey" from the Empire, and somehow I don't think that if there were a border world or station close enough, they wouldn't have gone directly from Qo'noS to DS9.

It would also explain why tensions between the Klingons and the Cardassians, though occasionally high, never broke into outright warfare until WotW -- the distance between the two powers made sustained fighting impractical, until the supposed Changeling threat made an invasion "necessary".
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
That's what I sort of tried to promote in the Charts: for decades, the Klingons and Cardassians have thrown impotent insults across the gulf that has Betreka Nebula in the middle, but UFP presence there has kept the fighting sides apart.

Naturally, then, when the Dominion War breaks out, the favored Cardassian strategy is to go through Betreka towards the Klingons... And the Dominion goes along with it, because an invasion route that separates the Klingons from the Feds is just the thing they want. The Feds, expecting a direct plunge towards Earth, go "Huh?" and are left standing still.

It's a nice coincidence that the actual DS9 wall maps support this strategy and astrography.

Moving the Klingon/Romulan border corewards to Gamma Hydra would make this far less workable. But the idea has its merits...

(Incidentally, "Way of the Warrior" is troublesome in that it claims the Klingon invasion was halted before it reached Cardassia, yet Klingons got hold of several Cardassian systems anyway. How is this possible if the Cardassian home system is the one nearest to Bajor? Did the Klingons attack in a wide front? Or did they spread out to grab whatever they could after Cardassian resistance at the home system solidified?)

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Mabye the Klingons strategy was to flank and surround Cardassia Prime- then, when the Cardassians went on the counterattack, the invading forces found themselves inside the Union's borders, and potentially surrounded themselves, dug in and occupied the systems they'd already conquored.

Untill the Dominion kicked their asses out, anyway.

It's possiblr the Brekta Nebula lies "above" or "below" Federation claimed space and the KLingons and Cardassians held their lengthy skirmishes without any Federation interference.

In the (non canon, I know) Lost Era book Art of the Impossible the two empires were testing their strengths against each other with neither really intending an all-out war.

The Klingons needed to test their mettle after so many years of relative peace and the Cardassians wanted to establish themselves as a power to be reckoned with.
 

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