Hi gang, I was recently prompted to redesign one of my old ships after the lovely Reverend did his patch design. When I looked back at the old thing I saw nothing but flaws and decided it was worth redoing using my improved modelling skills, time having marched on somewhat since we originally made it.
As usual Reverend has been a source of design ideas and detailing suggestions, but as I'm a pretty hopeless Treknologist I decided I would throw it open to the floor and let anyone have a say. I'll post the occasional update pic should anyone prove interested, as I realise this forum is more heavily populated with talented 2D artists than 3D ones. Let me know what you think, what should and shouldn't be there and I'll try and make it happen. Thanks for any input...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Uhh, one thing I cannot help blurting out is that this thing begins to look more and more like a Colonial Viper.
It's the leftmost pic, really. While there's no anhedral to the wings, their planform makes it look as if there was, from this angle. Combined with the nose deflector shape...
Mind you, it's not THAT bad if it looks like a Viper. But perhaps the warp engines inset into the wings could be made to protrude a bit, to remove the similarity? Not much, just the blue grilles bulging out a little. Or something like that. This baby looks almost *too* smooth now.
From the treknology point of view, though, the baby is perfect. Zero aft visibility, weird combination of aerodynamic surfaces and a wholly unstable and unaerodynamic basic shape, awkward access, weapon installations looking like afterthoughts... Everything is as it should!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
If I may be so bold...
I think that you have the front of a sleek, fast ship grafted to the ass of a low-budget boxy shuttle pod. I would make the rear end a bit less boxy or at least lower its height a bit. Do you intend for people to stand upright in the cabin?
Are those orange panels bussards or an intake of some sort. Whatever they are, I think they are slightly large for a ship of this size. However, if you are trying for an aggressive effect, sort of like having a massive grill and fenders on a gas-guzzling SUV, they fit.
Heed also the wise backhanded compliment of Timo!
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Thanks for the rapid input chaps, very good.
Colonial Viper, eh? I was expecting a barrage of Delta Flyer jibes but the Galactica reference is a new take on things. I suppose the rough layout is reminiscent of the Viper, but so are many things and you have to admit that Vipers were about the one good thing to come out of Battlestar Galactica. What you guys have to bare in mind here is that this is a very early work-in-progress, what I'm looking for from you guys is tips on what equipment it needs and where it should be placed on the ship to conform to accepted Starfleet norms. It might also help if you check out how the original looked when we finished it 18 months ago...
As you can see the newer version is a somewhat slippier design, despite the crappy aerofoils and boxy arse. What I was aiming for was a Trek equivelant of a ship I read about in 'The Mote in Gods Eye' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. It was a courier ship, a 'message sloop' it was called, a small and fast ship crewed by the toughtest men to get the message/parcel/VIP through.
As for my design, the ship is about 16 metres long right now, crewed by 2 and with seating and fold-down bunks in the rear so pilots can sleep in rotation. Entry will be via ramp from the rear, I don't like the old door on the original, and I think it's going to have extending langing legs of some sort (look good in animations). It's boxy at the rear because it needs to be, and the 'wings' serve no other purpose than to house equipment like the micro-torp launchers and the warp drive. In a time of field technologies and space travel I think it's moot to mention aerodynamic stability, this thing wont see much except hard vacuum for most of it's life. If I make it sleeker at the back it becomes too new, too reminiscent of the type 9 and we then have the problem of how to enter and exit it.
The intakes at the sides are just placeholders right now, Reverend has sketched up a design for the intakes that once again harks back to the defiant, with a heavy barred unit being installed with the bottom half as bussards and the top half as some indistinct grille. I'll build it and let you see what you think.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Bloody laptop, I had a nice long response all typed out and it decides to press backup all by itself!
Ok, I think I started by mentioning that it's nice to have another 3D artist on the board since most of the old regulars seam to have migrated off somewhere.
I believe I then pointed out to Kenny that either my sketch or my explanation (or lack thereof) must have confused the poor man, for it was the top half that was supposed to be the ramscoop and the bottom structure was meant to be an impulse intake (or whatever those yellow-orangey things are meant to be). Next I think I provided some examples, hyare , hyare and hyare . Then I made some witty closing statement involving Albanian sheep herders, but I forget the punch line so I'll just quote ole Rodger (the bloke on the telly) and say; Bollocks!
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
The only thing I would change is the top of the ship which might be more rounded. Maybe the two fins on the roof could be removed or moved closer together?
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I've updated the design a little with some suggestions from here and elsewhere, moving the impulse drives more outboard of the entrance ramp and instead of a wrap-around screen I've added a dark detail around the cockpit so it looks more unified. I can't do a decent wrap-around with such an angular design. it looks wrong and isn't really 'Trek' on a ship like this. That kind of screen is great on the little fat shuttles like the type 7, but not this angular design. As you can see I've also started placing panels and such as well.
Unfortunately it's a bit late now to make the upper part more rounded, and I plan to fill the upper trench with warp machinery and suchlike and it's going to look kinda lumpy there anyway. The upper bulges are going to be sculpted a bit more with parts being cut out here and there, and perhaps the ends scooped out somewhat to make them smoother at either end. I planned to have them as intakes or somesuch anyway, not merely as styling motifs or fins. I'm not sure about the placement of the impulse engines myself, but I got abuse for placing them too close to where the exit ramp will be. C&C welcomed...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think I preferred the impulse engines the way they were to be honest and I wouldn't worry too much about them being to close to the door since several cannon shuttles have done just that (Type-6 & 8, ST:V shuttles and the Defiant's Shuttlecraft Chaffee). Apparently shuttle Impulse engines are able to cool themselves very quickly.
I must say that those dorsal radiator fins are a little distracting, wouldn't it be better if you closed that gap in the middle? Perhaps even sculpted them somewhat to give them a sort of concave effect.
In case you need some reference for the warp assembly, here are some pictures of the Aerowing's Dilithium swirl chamber. Aero core
Oh and that dark surround on the windows is a little too dark, try a lighter grey.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Make Swirl Chamber for top - Check.
Lighten colour on window frame - Check
Add fins - on hold...
I planned to stick some device or other in the gap, not merely leave it exposed. I was planning on some nurnie or other to protrude out of the vent area and maybe have wiring or pipework reach out around the surround area. If I do cave in and just put fins in, I'll be sure to make them curve as you have drawn.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Damn, I can't edit my post to add this so we get a twoofer...
Anyone want to have a bash at designing feet for this thing, I want to animate landing gear coming out? Nothing mega comlex please, but interesting and canon-ish if possible. i make make some sort of landing area for it, or enlarge my existing shuttlebay model so I can use this in a portfolio animation piece.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Axeman 3D: Damn, I can't edit my post to add this so we get a twoofer...
Anyone want to have a bash at designing feet for this thing, I want to animate landing gear coming out? Nothing mega comlex please, but interesting and canon-ish if possible. i make make some sort of landing area for it, or enlarge my existing shuttlebay model so I can use this in a portfolio animation piece.
I'm on it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
This should be enough to get you started on the modelling, we can define and refine the details a little better as we go along.
This is only meant to represent the port or starboard landing strut as I'm not sure how to handle the forward one. Also it's shown here in it's totally straight and totally extended state for ease of reference, which would never happen in normal operations. As you can see it pivots in two places, a section of it telescopes and the toes all fold down when it's retracted.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I'm on it. Maybe 4 of these is the way to go, leave out a front one all together?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think that'll end up making it look like the crab car from Futurama.
Perhaps a simple extendable skid or something like this would suit it better? (that one's a little rushed so it might not be quite so acurate, but you get the idea.)
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
OK, check out the quick test animation located at http://www.axeman3d.com/posts/Comp1.avi and let me know if it's anything like you envisaged. I had to alter the toe design a bit, I have no idea how the mechanism would work for the ones you drew so I made nice simple ones. The animation shows the leg deploy and then retract, the deploy being quite mechanical and the retract being much smoother, as will the deploy be once I actually do it for real. Coded in DivX, but quite an old version so everyone doesn't need to go get version 5.05 of it. Aren't I thoughtful?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That actually looks dead on! Make a note though, that the telescoping section on Voyager seams to double as a shock absorber so if you do a landing sequencec try and get it to give a little on touch down.
Don't worry about changing the design, since it's always difficult to draw anything that translates exactly into 3D, never mind something with moving parts!
This is probably stating the obvious but if you come to do an interior for the aft section, remember where the landing gear is in relation to the deck level. We wouldn't want the same TARDIS anomolies as the Delta Flyer. Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
No problems with hiding the gear under the deck, it's quite a deep ship and all that space is ideal for techno-wizardry. One place I will have to cheat a bit is how deep it goes back into the body, the gear will actually clash inside at the centre. Since no one will see this I can assume it folds up more compactly than I've made it currently do, and we can get on with our lives.
I'll add detail to the gear once I finish detailing the ship itself, best finish that now that I know where I'm putting the bays for the landing legs. The extending joint will indeed be the shock absorber, along with a little rotation at the top joint to stop the foot having to move inwards slightly as the leg shortens.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I know this is being a little fussy, but how difficult would it be to round off the corners of the landing strut bay doors at this point? Because nothing give CG away better than an impossibly harsh corner. Also if we're trying to emulate Voyager and the Defiant (since they supposedly had the same legs) would it be too much hassle to have the bay doors split horizontally instead of just sliding forwards?
What are your thoughts on the front gear? A small triangular version of the on you did already, the same as the other two, a generic skid or just another pair?
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
No problem with the bay doors at all, that was just a quick test to check the movement and joint system for the leg itself. I just roughly chopped a hole in the side of a model and loaded in the appropriate leg setup, it took 5 mintues to make the bay and the door. The final item will have doors that split and the edges will be bevelled in to avoid the tell-tale sharp edges.
As for the design of the front strut I'm not sure what would be best to go with, a triangular setup might look nice but it may take up more than it's fair share of room as the fingers wont shut all that tightly. We'll be left with quite a large 'fist' if we're not careful. How about a 2-toed design that comes out horizontally and then as the leg starts to angle downwards the foot rotates 90 degrees at the ankle as the toes open out. The foot then touches down with the toes pointing fore/aft and it makes the animation look that little bit edgy.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I had the same thought about the Triangular "fist", it'll probably be a little too cumbersome for this design.
The two toed design seams like the way to go, although for stability it might be wise to make the toes a little longer than their counterparts on the back legs.
Before you start detailing the legs, I have a very specific idea as to what to do with the underside, toe pads. If you can make the underside of the toes look like these electro-magnetic clams then I think it would really convey a sence of weight to the design. Plus of course it gives the shuttle the ability to lock onto metal surfaces, like starship hulls, other shuttles and landing pads...no real reason but it has some dramatic potential and it'll give whoever we rope into doing the technical writeup something to do. Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I remember this image from previous ASDB mail flying around, it was my intention to make it look like that anyway. If I can drag my fat arse away from Vice City for a little while I'll try and get some detail on the landing legs and do the magnetic boots.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It's been a while since our last go at this design so I wasn't sure if you'd remember.
Do you still have the stuff on the Voyager struts I gave you for detail reference or would you like me to repost that too? While these struts won't need a ladder like their much larger cousins, I'm sure some of the detailing could be transferable.
Hmm, this thread is turning into a bit of a two man show. Doesn't anyone else have anything to say? The design isn't THAT bad! Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Actually? I find it kind of boring & more than a little out of place. Much like the "Insurrection" scoutship.
Posted by Adm_Amit (Member # 1046) on :
I really like the design. You have done a wonderful job with the rendering of the landing struts. I know it's hard to come up with digital models and render them but the shuttlecraft you designed is quite awesome. It's so aerodynamically stable and stays well within the starfleet design code for small craft. If you are able to put all the suggestions Reverend gave the shuttle should come out pretty nice
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Rev: I've added some detail to the landing struts now, made the magnetic footpads and suchlike. I can barely remember the landing pad diagrams you sent for Voyager but I no longer have the pics. I dont want to rip there design off wholesale anyway, this is a much smaller ship and I think we can probably get away with some small details of our own on this. I redid the animation too, made the deployment smoother and lit it better but I never got the time to post it here. Maybe later.
Shik: Boring I can handle, it is after all just another bloody Trek shuttlecraft, of which there are millions. I came up with a shape while pottering around with my modeler all those months ago and thought 'hey, this might make a nice Trek shuttle'. We ran with it and got the Archangel. Out of place I can't see, in a universe with something like 190 members in the Federation alone there's plenty of scope for ship designs beyond the very few we get to see in episodes and the occasional films. If we were seeing more then people wouldn't be all over boards like this on the net trying to catch glimpses of ships in backgrounds, pictures, desk models, etc. With so many types of environment, planets, species and technologies I think there may be a mryiad of roles for a wide spectrum of ships, and I'd rather design something new than take a couple of bits of existing designs, turn them 90 degrees and stick them together as yet another variant of a variant. I see too much of that onn the net and I think it's a bad thing. The only time we catch Trek doing it is when they have no cash or time to go think up a new design. I always like to see someone come up with a new design that at least partly conforms to Starfleet parameters, it's so much more interesting.
Adm Amit: Thank you for the vote of confidence, as Rev says this was becoming a bit of a two-man show, I was about to start doing this by e-mail instead to save boring you guys. I really do appreciate all comments, good or bad, that help with refining these models we make. It's always good to get the opinions of those with experience or knowledge outwith your own. Thanks.
Posted by Adm_Amit (Member # 1046) on :
You're very welcome Axeman
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
OK chaps, another small update in the form of a test animation showing the gear being deployed as the ship lands rather clumsily. This is just a test, I'll have to smooth out the animation cycle later on when I do a decent setup, this is just to show the gear in action for the first time. As always your comments and crits are welcomed.
Looking great. The detail on the gear looks fine, the front rotating pad looks nice and dynamic, however (I know, there's always a "however") I think the shuttle touches down a little quickly. Would it be possible to have the aft gear touch the ground a split second before the front? Also it might convey a greater sense of mass if the shock absorbers had a little more bounce and didn't settle quite so quickly.
Other than that it all looks good, the gear seams to work quite well and seams appropriate enough for the design.
Posted by Adm_Amit (Member # 1046) on :
Great animation. The landing gear struts look extremely well. A good idea to convey the greater mass is to have the nose of the shuttlecraft be pitched up as it lands and have the nose pitch down as soon as the two rear struts touch down.
I just have a quick question on the blue lights below the "wings". Are they just lights or are they thrusters?
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Dont worry about the animation, this was just a quick test setup to make sure the legs worked at all, and to check out how they looked. I plan to do a finished animation with it, something a damn site better set up than this one, but that will have to wait until I finish making the ship itself. As for touching down at the back first, I thought that chestnut might crop up. When i do the final scene I'll have the shuttle flare a little as it comes to a halt, but it will probably land flat. It's not got wheels like a plane, it's designed to land flat and has extremely powerful computers to help it do just that.
The 'light' at the back is actually the warp nacelle glow lighting up the underside of the wing, it's just more obvious because I accidentally left a corona/bloom filter on and it makes the glows more noticable. Now, on to finish detailing the ship, and then design something for it to land on.
Posted by Adm_Amit (Member # 1046) on :
Good to know about the blue lights!
You've justified the flat landing sequence. It works for me!! And on a "regular" landing it makes sense that it would land flat. I guess any sort of variation of that would have to be under separate circumstances.
The shuttle looks great anyhow. Any animation you make is always up to the artist himself to decide upon Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Ha, tell that to some people!
The shuttle will flare out as it comes in, landing in a manner we've come to know and love, but the finished item will have a little more to it than that. I want it to manouever into position above a pad so that we see it slowly turn around a bit before coming down, allowing spotlights and stuff to play over the surface as is lands. Now to finish the damn model so i can get on to the animating...
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
More updates, more detail added, impulse engines moved back to their original positions and beginning to add stuff like RCS thrusters and micro-torp hatches. The engine intakes are now taking shape as well, they were a real bugger to make too.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Thanks for the rapid input chaps, very good.
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