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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peregrinus: [QB] [QUOTE][qb]Ooh...what sort of "internal memos"? Is this something you've had access to or just heard about it second hand? Is there any other useful info on registries, names, or classes that could be gleaned from such sources?[/qb][/QUOTE]Mostly just what you've seen in The Making of Star Trek. Those memos, by the way, are the source of most of FJ's ships before the "Achernar" cutoff, from where the production staff (notably D.C. Fontana) are tossing potential future [i]Constitution[/i]s into the collective pool. [QUOTE][qb]I agree with what you're saying, and am well acquainted with Mr. Jefferies' intended registry system. Unfortunately, as you are no doubt aware, that registry system never really came to fruition, and is now most certainly quite defunct.[/qb][/QUOTE]I agree. But while it never came to fruition, the framework is still there and -- non-canon Okudaic speculation aside -- still eminently available for application to the TOS/TAS/TMP period with (as I said) very few retcons needed. [QUOTE][qb](That's one thing you can blame Franz Joseph for to a great extent, although it was actually "The Doomsday Machine" that cast the first wrench into the works.)[/qb][/QUOTE]Agree on "The Doomsday Machine". It's a pity the VFX crews didn't work with the Art Department in those days... But FJ had remarkably little impact except in fandom circles, and hate to say it, but I don't hold anyone who doesn't research what they are contributing to in very high regard. The pretty pictures are great, but I tend to ignore much of the FJ-derived fluff and registration. I keep FJ's pre-[i]Achernar[/i] list very much intact, as well as his [i]Federation[/i] list. I muck around a bit with the [i]Hermes[/i] and [i]Saladin[/i] lists. Indeed, I've been cudgeling my brain on what to do with those classes for years. [QUOTE][qb]There is absolutely no way that Jefferies' proposed system can be applied given what we've seen in canon Trek in the ensuing 30 years.[/qb][/QUOTE]I don't know about that. :p Very little has still been done with the TOS era since that series wrapped. When I say very little retconning is needed to have Jeffries' system switch into Okuda's in the 2280s, I'm not making idle projections. I'll post the full list of examples I've gathered over in the Creativity section tomorrow. [QUOTE][qb]Yes, but even while it would fit nicely into the range, there's no reason to assume it is a Connie. In fact, it was lifted directly from FJ's Star Fleet Technical Manual, which lists the ship as a Bonhomme Richard-class vessel. (Which, arguably, could be a variant of the Constitution-class, but isn't necessarily---and I am of the utmost reluctance to accept the fandom notion of subclasses or ships being "upgraded" to new classes...[ick!].)[/qb][/QUOTE]*heh* I know, "No-[i]Enterprise[/i]-Class Boy". :D I've maintained for a looooooong time that everything from the version seen in "The Cage" to FJ's [i]Achernar[/i] is the [i]Constitution[/i] class. From the drastic reworking she got in her 2270 refit, I do agree with Andy Probert that the [i]Enterprise[/i] started a new class. For a subclass I demand a bit more deviation from the base template than eliminating the spikes on the nacelle endcaps. The [i]Miranda[/i] family is the best canon example of a design and her subclasses. Going by Matt's system as I do, I put the [i]Miranda[/i] at NCC-1800, the [i]Soyuz[/i] subclass at NCC-1840, and the [i]Avenger[/i] subclass (with the rollbar) at NCC-1860. Recent caps from "Cause and Effect" have made me put that project on hold, though, because of the '1941' seen on both bottom [i][b]and[/b][/i] top, contrary to what I'd read. :confused: [QUOTE][qb]Agreed...sort of. You can't undo what TNG showed with registry numbers---that they are, at most, assigned in a roughly sequential order without regard to class or vessel type.[/qb][/QUOTE]Don't intend to. It works with all that has come since '87, and I have no problem with it. [QUOTE][qb]One can't very well claim (IMO) that it was somehow different in the TOS era, even if the original intent at the time the first series was being produced was just that.[/qb][/QUOTE]Why not? 99% of Okuda's mucking in that era is confined to unreadable screen graphics and encyclopedaic speculation. [QUOTE][qb]There comes a point (and it was reached long, long ago) when it becomes impossible to try to uphold/reconcile something that is universally ignored by all the other series.[/qb][/QUOTE]It is ignored by all other series, but for the most part not contradicted. I promise I'll show examples tomorrow in that post to Creativity... [QUOTE][qb]The highest one is the 1[6|8]31 which is shown right at 100%, and then there's a gap, and another small bar, which presumably denotes completion, or something.[/qb][/QUOTE]Hrm. So the [i]Enterprise[/i] -- which just arrived -- is already at 84% completion? Man, the [i]Constitution[/i] must have been [i][b]mangled[/b][/i]...! And regarding my saying Starfleet switched over in the mid-2280s... [QUOTE][qb]Not necessarily... for one thing, there's the Reliant.[/qb][/QUOTE]So? NCC-1800 -- next Starship (Heavy Cruiser by the time we get to TWOK) class after [i]Constitution[/i]. [QUOTE][qb]Also, there were no names on that big wall chart, were there? If you use Jefferies' system, and the fact that the Commodore pointed to the number NCC-1831 while referring to the Intrepid, that means that the Intrepid should be a Miranda-class starship![/qb][/QUOTE]Did he? Man, it's been too long since I watched that ep. Would someone who has it at hand be able to cap him pointing? Is there any way he could be pointing one above or below? And lastly (*whew*), regarding the "78 years later thing", that's always been one of my primary data points. Thus I have narrowed TWOK, TSFS, and TVH down to all taking place from early 2286 to the end of TVH taking place at the tail end of that year. Fandom places Kirk's birthday at March 22nd. Where is this from? Shortly after that, at the end of the Spring semester (or whatever), is the training cruise. Factor in a few weeks for stuff to happen before Kirk's log entry at the beginning of TSFS, and we're getting close to midsummer. Three months later they leave Vulcan to face the music. And I'm one of those wierdos that thinks there's at least a week between their splashdown and the sentencing, and a little bit more time (on the order of hours or days) between that and the trip to the 1701-A. So where doea that leave us? October, 2286? --Jonah [/QB][/QUOTE]
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