posted
After a recent visit to the Mac Store at the King of Prussia Mall in PA, I've suddenly got Macs on my mind a bit, and have been thinking about how they will play into my future as a Design graduate.
Right now I'm about to transfer to Kutztown University as a Communication Design major. This will be my 4th semester for this major (5th for college altogether...don't ask). So far I've mainly been working on the academic side of things instead of the artistic. Only last semester did I actually get into working with computers at Baum Art School.
There, the entire lab was Mac G3s and G4s, all on OS 9.6 or something. I had experience with Macs before in high school, some very old machines that I completely forget what model they were. But, as I'm sure everyone knows, Macs are the standard for computer artwork, so thats to be expected.
Right now I'm on a 1.7Ghz Dell 4200 that was built late 2001. It's great right now for a normal user's standard (IE, no heavy gaming or modifications and crap). And it's the computer I will take to college. More then likely I'm going to do some slight modifications, more then likely RAM and maybe throw in a ZIP Drive, so I can use Photoshop/Illustrator/whatever decently on here.
However, although I haven't actually checked, I'd be willing to bet Kutztown also uses almost all Macs. So really, working on a Mac in class and then working back here on my PC might be a problem. So, here are my questions:
1) Do I really need a Mac at all? Can I survive as a computer design student on a PC when the school will probably be mostly Macs? Will this cause conflicts in work, especially between different versions of programs?
2) If I need a Mac, would it be better to get a Desktop computer or a Laptop? I already have this large clunky Dell (full monitor, not a flatscreen), having another Desktop might be a problem space-wise. However, I don't know if Laptops are a lot harder to work with when it comes to artwork.
3) Of either of those, what would you people recommend? iMac, G4, G5? iBook, Powerbook?
Offhand: I'm envious of the new iPods. I wish had known about them and waited for the new one before getting mine.
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Okay, you've got a few different issues here...
Compatability:
If you really don't want to get a Mac, you shouldn't run into any problems concerning the transfer of your work from the school's Macs to your own PC. Just about all applications out there are almost completely cross-platform (assuming they've got versions for both), so it *should* be possible for you to do the work. But without knowing what kind of programs the school uses, I can't guarantee that. Plus, using the Macs for the graphics is just easier, because that's one of the Mac's strong points.
Desktop or Laptop:
I'd VERY strongly recommend getting a laptop, because Apple's laptop models are just as good as their desktops, for about the same price (or even less!).
If money is a major issue, the iBook is probably a good one to start out on. I own an iBook myself. However, the iBooks are still using the old G3 processor, which, while still good for everyday use, is starting to get a bit long in the tooth.
Your best choice for a laptop, though, would definitely be one of the G4 PowerBooks. They've got a really nice 12" model which is really compact (and great for students to take to class -- I should know as the 12" model is the same size as my own iBook). They've also got the 15" model, which gives you more screen area and a bit more processing power (which could be important for a graphics student).
Whichever laptop you choose, I'm almost positive that all of the G4 PowerBooks can handle an external monitor to plug into your laptop, so you can use one of those huge screens if you want.
If you decide on a desktop instead, I'd recommend looking at either the G4 PowerMac desktop models, or consider the brand-new G5 desktops, which will be shipping towards the beginning of September. I haven't looked at the prices too much, but a low-end G5 is probably about the same price as a mid-range G4, and you get lots more processing power (and other goodies) for the same price.
There aren't any G5 laptop models yet -- as I understand it, the G5 chip is too new and power-hungry to work into a laptop model just yet. But I know that Apple's working on it, though it probably won't be until early next year that they announce those. Still, the G4 PowerBooks are an excellent choice.
As for the iMac... well, those are definitely snazzy-looking computers, not to mention compact for a dorm room, which could be a concern, I know. But from what I remember, there's a bit of a processing power drop compared to the full PowerMacs. As a art student, though, you'd probably do better to spring for a full PowerMac rather than an iMac, which is more geared for home and casual use.
If you just want to take a quick browse around, take a look at The Apple Store online to check out the prices. And since you're a college student, you can also get BIG DISCOUNTS. I looked at the PowerBooks recently (just to drool over them -- I won't be replacing my iBook for another 18 months or so), and I know that you'd get $200 off the 12" PB, bringing it down to around $1300. Which is pretty darn good, IMO!
Hope these tips help you out a bit! Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you've got more specific questions!
(Oh, and King of Prussia? How far from there do you live? I go up to the Philadelphia on occasion -- it's about 40 minutes away from where I'm at. )
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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I dunno if you've heard, but apparently IBM has been running into some trouble with their chip-manufacturing facility, and there's a big delay in ordering the new G5's. I just read a report this morning from someone who ordered a G5 desktop yesterday (8/4), and it's not going to be shipped until the middle of October!
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
They'll sort it out eventually. I seem to remember this happened with the 500Mhz G4s too. Pissed some people off.
SO The359 (your name is awkward for shortening):
Long have I dreamt that someone would ask me about this.
Now, I don't know what MM does for a living, but I happen to be a graphic designer working almost exclusively on Macintosh. I'll be straight with you. There are issues of compatibility between the platforms. Those issues are largely on the PC side. Which is to say that the Macs usually understand the PC stuff (call it a survival imperative), but not so much vice versa. Depending on what suite you're using, (probably Adobe would be your best bet since they are really good about x-platform compatibility. and their education discounts are so completely worth it.) Flash might be a sticking point but you'll need to know that if you're into site-building. I worked mostly on my Mac through all of my classes and it was pretty smooth sailing. We had several students throughout my trevails (even a few technically savvy ones) who decided to try to stick with their PCs for their coursework. These quickly became not happy people. Projects that they'd worked on in class wouldn't open at home, drives they'd formatted at home wouldn't work at school, homework files would be different from one platform to the other. There were problems. I saw real grown-up people actually crying on at least two separate occasions.
If you're already contemplating buying a new computer anyway, and you're really serious about becoming a communications design major, do yourself a huge fucking favor, bite the bullet and get yourself a G5 desktop. You probably won't need the top of the line, but don't invest in the G4 unless you're getting a super-sweet deal because Apple does have this nasty (NASTY) habit of dropping old technology like so much useless crap, and buying a G5 ensures you're going to be pretty comfy for at least 2-4 years. MinutiaeMan is right, the laptops are great. Really great. Incredibly awesome and powerful. Unless you have to work on something for more than about an hour. Like you will if you happen to be designing anything even remotely complicated.
You are going to find that the two things you crave most for this line of work are more screen real estate and more memory. I use two monitors for my home setup. This is great especially for pallette intensive programs like Flash, Dreamweaver and GoLive, Painter, Illustrator, Final Cut, etc.. I park the pallettes on one monitor and the work on the other. This makes life much easier. Also my Macs and PCs all talk to each other (like file-transfer) and use the same monitors/keyboard/mice (via two Iogear USB/VGA switchboxes) to save space. Also most of my external drives are either Firewire or USB so I can use those peripherals on whichever machine I happen to be using. WHen I buy peripherals I just make sure they sork on both platforms and it's actually not that uncommon. So, I mean I have both my PC which is good for killing people on the Internet, and, uh, shall we say peer-to-peer file-sharing (as well as the occasional work diversion) and the Mac for designing stuff and etc. (and as and aside, I mean I do actually do work on the PC. For instance when I'm working on, say, a PowerPoint presentation I usually finish it up on the PC for testing and colors and fonts sake .) No but with the KVM switch this way it doesn't take up that much more space on the desk. On the subject of displays, the flatscreens are great because they take up so much less space and they are easier on your eyes (on account of flicker). It's unfortunate that they cost more than a small car and their color accuracy can't touch tubes yet. I would recommend that unless you happen to have huge piles of unused cash sitting around that you skimp on flat-screens and put that money into more memory or a better system. Flat-screens are going to get cheaper and better just like 17 inch monitors did, so I'd wait on that.
As for specific hardware/software. I'm not really sure what you want to do with your degree. If you want to do a lot of video or think you might want to do a lot of video in the future, get that high-end dual processor G5. Otherwise get the lower one and get lots of memory. No, but I mean more than that. You'll need at least 512MB and 1024 might not be a bad idea. No seriously. You'll need it. I've had luck getting cheap memory and installing it myself, but if you want to play it safe, order it with your machine. You will also want a phat hard drive. The 160GB in the mid-range model is plenty, but the 80GB in the low one is going to be full very fast, particular if you're doing any animation, sound and video.
So without really knowing what exactly your intentions are, like what you want to do with this degree, I'd really push for at least that mid-range G5. $2400-3000 seems like an awful lot of money to spend on a computer, I know. But it really is an investment and if you are serious about being a designer and being a Photoshop god and doing video stuff, you will not be sorry you have that machine. You will be angry in two years when they're selling for half that price (and if this is your own pocketbook the low end one is still plenty respectable, you just need more memory and a bigger hard-drive), but that G5 is going to kick some serious ass in the mean time and if you work it right, it WILL pay for itself.
I will now support my previous statement with a personal annecdote which may seem like grandstanding to some, however, it is not intended to be such and no empire-building should be implied here. When they first came out (in 1999) I bought my G4/400 (I know!) and it had a 10GB drive and I think 128MB RAM and a DVD player. It now has two 120GB drives and 768MB RAM (hooray for using PC parts) with an external firewire CD burner. This machine is old and it gets a little bogged down these days if I've got too much going on at the same time, but it still kicks some mejor ass. I paid US$1700 or thereabouts for it. I've since made something close to US$100,000 primarily using this machine working freelance part-time and going to school. Using some of this money, I later bought a G3 Powerbook Lombard (also with Firewire and USB) and that thing is still terrifically handy. I did my final project for a usability class on it while house-sitting a friend's and my back got tweaked from the long sub-ergonomic hours, but for convenience and flexibility and when I go on vacation, my Powerbook's still a great little machine. It is, however, getting close to time to buy myself a new desktop and for what it's worth, I will only spend real money on a G5. This will hurt because like two weeks ago, I paid $69 for a 2.2Ghz Athlon and new motherboard for my PC, but when i buy, I will buy the G5 because I know it will be worth it for the work that I do. Which is graphic design, multimedia and technical illustration. Which are presumably the disciplines you will be studying.
Holy crap, I wrote a lot. Feel free to ask us more.
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
Registered: Sep 2000
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I should add that any computer purchase wont be made anytime soon, I'd guess at least a year from now, merely because I have no money (no job) and I doubt my parents would consider buying it.
Now, you mentioned peripherals, and I can say I am completely covered on that right now. I added a 4-port Firewire card to this PC, specifically for my iPod, so if I got a Mac with USB I'd be set.
As for where exactly I will be going with my schooling, I'm not quite set on that yet. All I know for certain is that I want to do artwork on my computer. I haven't really thought about the video/animation side, I was thinking something along the lines of advertising, automotive design, pretty pictures, etc.
About memory, I've always known I'd need a lot, hence the reason I need to add more to this PC, it only has the 256MB it came with.
As for taking either a PowerBook or G5, I think for finishing college it might be smart to get the PowerBook, and then wait until after I'm finished to get a G5 once they've more then likely gone down in price, and therefore get an even more powerful version for the same price.
As for monitors, at Baum my computer had the new flatscreen monitor, unfortunatly I'm not sure what size it was. I'd guess 15" or 17". Using Photoshop and Illustrator didn't seem to be that much of a problem, space-wise, but that 21" screen I've seen is definatly nice. If the laptop does allow for a screen-out, that might solve that little problem, plus then I'd already have a screen when I move up to a G5.
And I live in the suburbs of Allentown, PA, an hour or so northwest of Philly.
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
A Mac may be a good idea. My brother recently graduated with a Bachelor of Design. He also shelled out $2000 for a Mac simply because the Macs have better design capabilities compared to PCs.
I'll have to ask him for his opinion.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
Here's what my brother said:
quote: it really doesn't matter. he's fine. macs cost too much as it is. Its just an inconvenience to transfer stuff back and forth between the two because of compatibility issues. If he intends to work mostly at home and on his own computer and print things from home or a printing house then a PC is fine. But if he wants to work on stuff at school and plans to do most of his work there, then get a mac.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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I spent five days with my friend's 700mhz iBook and actually enjoyed it. It took a while to get used to the commands since it's different from XP Pro, but then it was easy to use. I am thinking now of buying the 12 inch PowerBook this Christmas since I really love iTunes.
And yet I also plan on buying a new Sony Vaio first... the TR or Z1 series. I am a political science major... so I am going for looks when it comes to my electronic toys.
Registered: May 1999
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posted
Each according to his needs and stuff. Designers use Macs and fru-fru design schools almost certainly use Macs
quote:Originally posted by The359: I should add that any computer purchase wont be made anytime soon, I'd guess at least a year from now, merely because I have no money (no job) and I doubt my parents would consider buying it.
I mean that's the thing, really is that these computers are very expensive. I wasn't sure what you were studying to be (the "comminication design" program at my school was pretty much the long way of saying "I want to be a web-designer") and so now I change my vote from "go and buy a G5 now" to "waitandsee".
Here's another long and boring story about what I did: Very early on right after I'd moved out and I was dismally poor. Like Top Ramen poor. Strangely (it seemed to me at the time), my parents refused to buy me a computer, this thing that I knew would be the very key to the rest of my life. But my college had a Mac lab. So I lived there. No but that really taught me a lot about what to look for and what I'd need to do all of the things I wanted to do. It sucked because here I was a barely making the rent hustling as a copy-clerk at an affluent school and these spoon-fed kids would come in, kind of half-assed thinking they wanted to make web pages, and their mommies would have already plunked down the 4 grand to get them sparkly new 9600s runing at 300Mhz or whatever it was. Which not surprisingly they had approximately zero idea how to use (jeez, I forgot I was so angry about that). But I expect that's how it goes. And so later when I saved up literally all my money and got myself really low-end Mac, I knew precisely what I wanted and what I could afford. Which happened to be the near bottom-of-the-line lame little 90Mhz PowerMac 7200 (that I'd be willing to sell to you for very cheap, btw). And but then I learned my cruddy little 7200 inside and out. And I got good at it, really good at it because I'd spent all that time figuring out what I wanted before and although my machine was choking on their processors' dust, it really came down to what you could do with it. I'll let you guess who was asking who for help as finals approached. It spent years with that slug, but then eventually I got my G4 and now I crush their mamby-pamby asses under the steel-toed grating of my velocity-engine accelerated boots. Except now I don't care so much.
So if you do want to have SOMETHING you can use at home, maybe the portable would be a better "starter" for you. As long as you've got a USB keyboard and mouse and plug it into your monitor at a proper desk when you get home. It's just, I mean even the 14.1 screen on my Powerbook feels dinky, because when it comes to design you want to see as many pixels at a time that you can. With a small screen you spend half your time zooming in and zooming out and scrolling around and it's hard to see where you 're at. And I mean, sure, that 23" HD Cinema display would solve all your resolution (wet?) dreams but for that kind of money, you could buy two fairly nice 21" CRTs (with more consistent color accuracy/calibration) and have enough left over to get yourself a Waccom and a pizza.
If you really are just "testing the waters" with this subject, then I'd say save your cash and try and make due on the lab computers (assuming they've got an open lab.) Not to be cruel, but if you don't have a GF to worry about (the most time-consuming and expensive peripheral of all (and let's not get started about compatibility)) it will be OK, at least for a while. And you'll learn what it is you like and whether this design thing is really for you and what you'd need and at that point you can decide whether it's worthwhile hucking yourself into debt to drop some big cash on whatever bad-ass desktop.
ps- You're not going to believe me, and so I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you (perhaps it's because I'm getting older now and so I feel that self-important urge to prattle on about things... *looks at lengths of posts again* Yeah, sorry.) But really the best thing you can learn at this stage is actually not the hardware and the tools. Maybe you know this already. If you have cool teachers they will explain that althrough that stuff is really important, it's in constant flux. The basic hand skills of roughing things out with a pen and paper and having good and solid design fundamentals irregardless of Illustrator's masking paths or Photoshop's action pallette or Flash dot notation. All the software knowledge is just technical. Don't get me wrong, I'm a technical boy. But the way I stay ahead is to be better/faster than most at all those tools. I'm still struggling with those basics, because I just dismissed drawing with such primitive things as pencils and markers and pastels and charcoals as unimportant early on. Don't dismiss that stuff early on. Talk to Aban. He's a terrific hand artist and a pretty good designer. Get your head at least working in that direction and the software will just become a part of that. That's what you want. If design is for you. An artist first. A technician second. Your teachers are telling you this already. You might even think I'm wrong. But let me tell you that the proliferation of these tools if anything has if anything underlined the importance of those basic elements of design: contrast, color, symmetry, warmth, balance, depth, perspective, shape and style. Get that shit down, because even CaptainMike knows Photoshop. (Nooouuu, I kid.)
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
Registered: Sep 2000
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Yeah, a "wait and see" approach is probably the best for now. If your current computer can handle the load for the time being, it's probably sufficient for you to get your bearings, get the education and figure out what's best for your needs before committing to any new hardware.
If you decide that you *do* need to get a computer at this time (or before the end of the year), based on what you've said, it sounds like either the 12" or 15" PowerBook would be best for you, since it'd have the decent power while still being relatively cheap (and portable). Or if you want to go for the dirt-cheap, you can get a 800 mHz iBook for $950. And I can say from personal experience that the old G3 processer does indeed still have some use left in it -- I do all of my own web design work on it. Though it does take around a minute for Fireworks to save my 6.6 MB .png Starfleet comparison chart for posting on my site, that's about the worst kind of delay I've encountered -- which ain't bad, considering!
(And if you want to go for the REALLY dirt cheap, I'm sure that my dad wouldn't mind digging up our old Performa 600 -- 33 mHz 68030 Motorola processor, 800 MB 2nd-generation HD, and maxed out at 32 MB of RAM. IIRC, the most recent OS version it can run is OS 7.6.1, too. Vintage 1992. )
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I certainly know the artistic side. I've been through quite a few art classes in HS and college, including Photography, Drawing, Commercial Art, Computer Graphics, etc. Drawing with pencil is really what I am best at, but thats really limited in what I can do. And I HATE painting, so to bring in color doesn't leave me too many sensible choices, so I'd rather go with computers. I do plan to take even more basic art classes at Kutztown, instead of just computer stuff.
Really, I'm not computer savvy, I can't even program anything, and barely know a few HTML bits. I'm just into computers as an artistic medium. And really, I'm more then willing to do hand drawn stuff as well. Aban's stuff indeed is good, I'm nowhere near that level of ability yet however. But I think if let loose on a computer, with enough time, I could do some beautiful things.
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I had no idea you had the hand skills! That's great. You have set you up the bomb. Even though my drawing skills are sub-par I still start out nearly everything by hand. For just working out basic ideas it is pretty tough to beat a pencil and some paper.
You post on Flare which is more computer savvy than some, and believe me "a few HTML bits" is a lot more than some of my fellow design students ever learned (curse you WYSIWYG editors!). I don't know how much image manipulation experience you have, but you'll probably never regret taking some Photoshop classes. (There are a lot of people who say that PSP is the same thing (only way cheaper), but those people are incorrect.) I think you may have stated the best solution in your original post. Find out how difficult it's going to be using your PC with your classes and teachers for the mean time. If it turns out you think you need something more powerful and more Mac compatible, you'll probably know better by then what you're looking for (and if you have more questions, feel free to ask). Perhaps more importantly, the solutions you're looking at now will be cheaper then!
As a final bit of Mac-evangelism, I want to elaborate the reasons why professional designers frequently prefer to use Macs. It is because they are artists, and the Mac has historically been and continues to be designed for them. It wants to be a tool that you don't have to think or worry about too much. It wants to intuitively and with as little effort as possible facilitate whatever it is that you are trying to do. As someone who regularly goes back and forth between Windows and Mac OS, I can say that with Windows I'm often trying to get inside the machine's head to figure whatever has gone wrong. It's different with the Mac. I'm probably sounding like a lunatic.
Maybe a vehicular metaphor would be appropriate. Hondas are great little cars. They're cheap, readily available they have four tires and they will get you wherever you need to go. Jaguars are more expensive there aren't a whole lot of them, they also have four tires, and they will get you where you need to go. But when you drive the Jaguar you feel like it has been designed to make certain that you are comfortable, that you will enjoy your drive, and that you will arrive safe. Obviously this is a less than perfect metaphor, but do you get what I'm trying to say? I'm not making any sense now. Sorry.
Also, MinutiaeMan: I've got an old LCII rotting away somewhere in the basement. I don't know why we never sold that when we could/should have.
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
Registered: Sep 2000
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I've got an Apple question, while we're at it. How come I have to hold the mouse button down to keep a menu open? It is a terrible imposition! I must waste five minutes a day because of this.
I should have studied a real subject in college.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Sol: If you're using the school's Macs in the computer lab, hold down the CTRL button when you click to get those contextual menus -- it's the equivalent of right-clicking.
The insistence on a one-button mouse is one of the few things about Apple that I completely disagree with. But it's not a huge deal to go out and buy a $20 mouse after spending so much more on the computer itself (if it's your own computer you're buying) -- just a bit of added annoyance.
If you mean the menus at the top of the screen, you SHOULD be able to just click and have them stay there -- unless the system is relatively old (pre-OS 9, I think).
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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Charles Capps
We appreciate your concern. It is noted and stupid.
Member # 9
posted
... or you can get a 2-button USB mouse and plug it in instead. The context menu comes up in many applications upon a right click.
Registered: Mar 1999
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