Flare Sci-fi Forums
Flare Sci-Fi Forums
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » So, um, where ARE these WMDs? (Page 3)

  This topic comprises 37 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  35  36  37   
Author Topic: So, um, where ARE these WMDs?
Griffworks
Active Member
Member # 1014

 - posted      Profile for Griffworks     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wouldn't be at all unrealistic, would it...? [Eek!]


[Wink]

Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

 - posted      Profile for First of Two     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, either. Perhaps he doesn't really exist. Perhaps the entire last 30 years of Iraq's rule has been an elaborate put-up job so that Halliburton could make a few bucks.

Well, it's no sillier than any of these other conspiracy theories.

quote:
Australian Defense Minister Robert Hill said Saturday the purpose of the expanded search team was to get the full picture of the WMD situation in Iraq.

Speaking at an Asian Security Conference in Singapore, Hill said the search was already yielding evidence but "whether these so-called smoking guns as such can be found, I don't know."

"I've no doubt at all that the picture at the end of this process will be of somebody who believed in weapons of mass destruction as a strategic tool ... and was clearly prepared to use them," Hill said.



--------------------
"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
...and was clearly prepared to use them....
Clearly if he was perpared to use them, he would have used them on an invading army from the United States.

I can't imagine a better time to use WMD than when your getting kicked out of power. How can Mr. Hill say Saddam was clearly prepared to use WMD when he had the prefect and perhaps last opportunity to do so, and did not.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

 - posted      Profile for First of Two     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Prepared" does not always equal "ready."

You can be mentally/emotionally prepared for something, and not be physically prepared to do it, or vice-versa. Don't assume that the word is being used in the way you want it to be.

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That was a good bit of mental gymnastics, Rob.

quote:
You can be mentally/emotionally prepared for something, and not be physically prepared to do it, or vice-versa.
Either he had them as Mr. Bush asserted, or he didn't.

Which is it?

We invaded another country because Saddam was allegedly mentally/emotionally ready to use WMDs but wasn't physically prepared to use them.

So, we invade, but Saddam does not have WMDs and does not use them.

That makes Mr. Bush quite the criminal. He stood up in front of the world and loudly proclaimed that Saddam had WMDs and because he was ready to use them against the United States or our interests. There was no time for inspections to work. We had to invade immediately.

But if he didn't have them....

The vice-versa is interesting too.

We invaded another country because Saddam physically had WMDs, but wasn't mentally/emotionally ready to use them.

So, we invade, and Saddam decides not to use his WMDs because of his mental/emotional state.

Which makes a fool and a liar out of Mr. Bush because his excuse to the American people and the world for invading and killing all those people was that Saddam not only had WMDs but was indeed ready to use them at any moment. We had to invade immediately for our own protection.

If that was the case there should be quite a bit of evidence of the WMDs. To quote the title of the thread, so, um, where ARE these WMDs?

Eiter way, my advice to you is to stop trying to spin it.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

 - posted      Profile for First of Two     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Clinton lied about them too, then?

Oh, yes, how quickly we forget the missile strikes and the WMD speeches that our OWN side made, hm?

Hussein is a threat to national security, has WMD - Clinton

quote:
Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made?

Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.

And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who's really worked on this for any length of time believes that, too.

Attacking nonexistent targets?

quote:
Earlier today I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces," Clinton said.

"Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors," said Clinton.

Clinton also stated that, while other countries also had weapons of mass destruction, Hussein is in a different category because he has used such weapons against his own people and against his neighbors

How can you attack things that don't exist?

quote:
"Along with Prime Minister (Tony) Blair of Great Britain, I made it equally clear that if Saddam failed to cooperate fully we would be prepared to act without delay, diplomacy or warning ," Clinton said
My, he's MUCH more bloodthirsty than Bush! Bush gave all three tof those things!

quote:
"The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people," Clinton said.

Wow. "Regime Change."

Cause he's a liar, you know.

*Reaches into that particular argument's chest, pulls out its still-beating heart, and shows it to Jay.*

*Thump-thump thump-thump thump...squelch*

The spear in the Other's heart is the spear in your own... you are he.

--------------------
"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That was one of your better non-answers.

It was long enough to make people think it was important, good rhetorical flourish with the heart beating part, and it has links too. And yet it's not even in the same neighborhood of addressing the question.

And you even had the chance to call Clinton a liar again.

Bravo.

Much as it may surprise you, calling Clinton a liar really doesn't bother me.

Back to the point.

quote:
So, um, where ARE these WMDs?
The ones that Saddam was so clearly prepared to use but didn't? You know, the ones that Clinton bombed? Where are these threats to national security.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Veers
You first
Member # 661

 - posted      Profile for Veers         Edit/Delete Post 
We must not forget those uranium rods that the President mentioned in his State of the Union. Wasn't that a, um, LIE? Explain why the President said these things, First of Two, if he knew and he was warned that the story was not true?

And what about Operation Desert Fox in 1998? Couldn't those strikes have destroyed Saddam's WMD, or at least damaged them a bit?

--------------------
Meh

Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

 - posted      Profile for TSN     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rob, why is it that, every time Bush does something you can't defend, you say "Well, Clinton did it, too!"? Clinton was an ass-clown. Bush is an ass-clown. Just because both are true doesn't mean they cancel each other out and make everything okay.
Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Mucus
Senior Member
Member # 24

 - posted      Profile for Mucus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's something vaguely odd about using a quote from Star Trek's Surak to support war.
In the same vague sense, the Titanic was mildly scratched by an iceberg.

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
It's long past time for this administration to be held accountable. Over the last two years we've become accustomed to the pattern. Each time the administration comes up with another whopper, partisan supporters � a group that includes a large segment of the news media � obediently insist that black is white and up is down. Meanwhile the "liberal" media report only that some people say that black is black and up is up. And some Democratic politicians offer the administration invaluable cover by making excuses and playing down the extent of the lies.

If this same lack of accountability extends to matters of war and peace, we're in very deep trouble. The British seem to understand this: Max Hastings, the veteran war correspondent � who supported Britain's participation in the war � writes that "the prime minister committed British troops and sacrificed British lives on the basis of a deceit, and it stinks."

It's no answer to say that Saddam was a murderous tyrant. I could point out that many of the neoconservatives who fomented this war were nonchalant, or worse, about mass murders by Central American death squads in the 1980's. But the important point is that this isn't about Saddam: it's about us. The public was told that Saddam posed an imminent threat. If that claim was fraudulent, the selling of the war is arguably the worst scandal in American political history � worse than Watergate, worse than Iran-contra. Indeed, the idea that we were deceived into war makes many commentators so uncomfortable that they refuse to admit the possibility.

But here's the thought that should make those commentators really uncomfortable. Suppose that this administration did con us into war. And suppose that it is not held accountable for its deceptions, so Mr. Bush can fight what Mr. Hastings calls a "khaki election" next year. In that case, our political system has become utterly, and perhaps irrevocably, corrupted.

Paul Krugman, New York Times

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

 - posted      Profile for First of Two     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are you sure Jayson Blair didn't write that article? I mean, it IS the Times...

anyway...

We have established that before the war, there was a bipartisan consensus that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The actual argument was between those who believed that Saddam would have to be disarmed by force and those who wanted to rely on U.N. inspectors to contain him.

The global community knew that, when last inspected, Iraq had stores of anthrax and nerve gas. This, coming from the UN inspectors themselves, (UNMOVIC, UNSCOM) was not disputed.

The world also knew that before the 1991 Gulf War, Iraq had an aggressive nuclear-weapons program. (Even though Hans Blix failed to find it while he was an inspector before the war.)

Last December, there was general agreement, even in France, that Iraq's 12,000-page declaration of its weapons programs was thoroughly incomplete.

This past January, former Clinton officials Kenneth Pollack and Martin Indyk wrote in the New York Times that Iraq:

"must be made to account for the thousands of tons of chemical precursors, the thousands of liters of biological warfare agents, the thousands of missing chemical munitions, the unaccounted-for Scud missiles, and the weaponized VX poison that the United Nations has itself declared missing."

If the administration's case was a lie, then everybody, including much of the political opposition, was in on it.

If it turns out that prewar estimates of Iraq's capabilities were incorrect, the Bush administration can say � truthfully � that it erred on the side of protecting American national security.

If one argues that the White House paid insufficient attention to intelligence indicating a threat to American security before September 11, as we've been told over and over again by the detractors, then one could easily accept that Bush was therefore determined not to underestimate any potential future threats.

--------------------
"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

 - posted      Profile for First of Two     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Fight the New York Times with the New York Times, I always say...

quote:
Because We Could
Thomas L. Friedman
New York Times Op-Ed Columnist
Wednesday, June 4, 2003 Posted: 7:02 AM EDT (1102 GMT)

The failure of the Bush team to produce any weapons of mass destruction (W.M.D.'s) in Iraq is becoming a big, big story. But is it the real story we should be concerned with? No. It was the wrong issue before the war, and it's the wrong issue now.

Why? Because there were actually four reasons for this war: the real reason, the right reason, the moral reason and the stated reason.

The "real reason" for this war, which was never stated, was that after 9/11 America needed to hit someone in the Arab-Muslim world. Afghanistan wasn't enough because a terrorism bubble had built up over there � a bubble that posed a real threat to the open societies of the West and needed to be punctured. This terrorism bubble said that plowing airplanes into the World Trade Center was O.K., having Muslim preachers say it was O.K. was O.K., having state-run newspapers call people who did such things "martyrs" was O.K. and allowing Muslim charities to raise money for such "martyrs" was O.K. Not only was all this seen as O.K., there was a feeling among radical Muslims that suicide bombing would level the balance of power between the Arab world and the West, because we had gone soft and their activists were ready to die.

The only way to puncture that bubble was for American soldiers, men and women, to go into the heart of the Arab-Muslim world, house to house, and make clear that we are ready to kill, and to die, to prevent our open society from being undermined by this terrorism bubble. Smashing Saudi Arabia or Syria would have been fine. But we hit Saddam for one simple reason: because we could, and because he deserved it and because he was right in the heart of that world. And don't believe the nonsense that this had no effect. Every neighboring government � and 98 percent of terrorism is about what governments let happen � got the message. If you talk to U.S. soldiers in Iraq they will tell you this is what the war was about.

The "right reason" for this war was the need to partner with Iraqis, post-Saddam, to build a progressive Arab regime. Because the real weapons of mass destruction that threaten us were never Saddam's missiles. The real weapons that threaten us are the growing number of angry, humiliated young Arabs and Muslims, who are produced by failed or failing Arab states � young people who hate America more than they love life. Helping to build a decent Iraq as a model for others � and solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict � are the necessary steps for defusing the ideas of mass destruction, which are what really threaten us.

The "moral reason" for the war was that Saddam's regime was an engine of mass destruction and genocide that had killed thousands of his own people, and neighbors, and needed to be stopped.

But because the Bush team never dared to spell out the real reason for the war, and (wrongly) felt that it could never win public or world support for the right reasons and the moral reasons, it opted for the stated reason: the notion that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction that posed an immediate threat to America. I argued before the war that Saddam posed no such threat to America, and had no links with Al Qaeda, and that we couldn't take the nation to war "on the wings of a lie." I argued that Mr. Bush should fight this war for the right reasons and the moral reasons. But he stuck with this W.M.D. argument for P.R. reasons.

Once the war was over and I saw the mass graves and the true extent of Saddam's genocidal evil, my view was that Mr. Bush did not need to find any W.M.D.'s to justify the war for me. I still feel that way. But I have to admit that I've always been fighting my own war in Iraq. Mr. Bush took the country into his war. And if it turns out that he fabricated the evidence for his war (which I wouldn't conclude yet), that would badly damage America and be a very serious matter.

But my ultimate point is this: Finding Iraq's W.M.D.'s is necessary to preserve the credibility of the Bush team, the neocons, Tony Blair and the C.I.A. But rebuilding Iraq is necessary to win the war. I won't feel one whit more secure if we find Saddam's W.M.D.'s, because I never felt he would use them on us. But I will feel terribly insecure if we fail to put Iraq onto a progressive path. Because if that doesn't happen, the terrorism bubble will reinflate and bad things will follow. Mr. Bush's credibility rides on finding W.M.D.'s, but America's future, and the future of the Mideast, rides on our building a different Iraq. We must not forget that.




--------------------
"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Grokca
Senior Member
Member # 722

 - posted      Profile for Grokca     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And they had a ton of oil that Bushco and his friends needed.

Seems the warhawks are already starting to rewrite history. Who cares if we lied, we now have other excuses.
Nice load of crap there fot.

--------------------
"and none of your usual boobery."
M. Burns

Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Veers
You first
Member # 661

 - posted      Profile for Veers         Edit/Delete Post 
What I am sick of are people who say "now that I've seen the mass graves and piles of bodies, I know we did the right thing." Well, whoop-de-do. Anyone who knows anything about Iraq and its history, and Saddam, knew he did this kind of thing. Apparently, those who cahnged their mind after they saw mass graves could not believe it until they saw it themselves through the media, on a TV screen. So people should not say they "just now" discovered the atrocities of Saddam, when they should've known about them years before.

And, can anyone explain why the President talked about the uranium rods in the State of the Union, when that was actually one big lie? Isn't this enough to get congressional inquiries going and indictments issued?

--------------------
Meh

Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 37 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  35  36  37   

Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Open Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3