"As a subordinate, other than the egregious 'shoot the baby in the head order,' you don't have a say...nor should you."
Well, I suppose that's where the question lies, isn't it? Where is the line drawn? Shooting babies? Burning villages? Fighting a war based on lies?
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
The line is drawn at your sphere of responsibility.
Things that are directly decided by you are within your decision making ability (like the safety of those under your command or the guys in your squad) but "big picture" questions are NOT on your list of things you'd have any say in.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
This is not about how much say Joe Grunt should have in decisions concerning The Big Picture, it's about what he should do when he finds out said Big Picture is in breach of the military code of conduct and what kind of breach would warrant doing it.
And while independent thought may be anathema in the service, a soldier who abides by criminal decisions is still just as guilty as the people who make them, so, again, where is the line drawn?
Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Jason Abbadon: "but 'big picture' questions are NOT on your list of things you'd have any say in."
Not in the decision-making, sure, but any soldier should have a right to act on his conscience or consider his motives.
Say an american soldier of Puerto Rican descent starts his military career, then suddenly a crisis develops in Puerto Rico and his squad is sent down to a village close to his relatives' and get ordered to stifle demonstrating crowds (that may or may not hold the moral higher ground) "by any means necessary", because some landowner or businessman with foreign diplomatic pull demands it.
Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Firstly, NO soldier in the US military is going to be ordered- or would be required to follow any orders, according to military code- to fire on demonstrators.
I dont know where you get your ideas of the US military, but they arent killers and dont serve landowners or businessmen- or even politicians.
Cartman wrote:
quote:This is not about how much say Joe Grunt should have in decisions concerning The Big Picture, it's about what he should do when he finds out said Big Picture is in breach of the military code of conduct and what kind of breach would warrant doing it.
And while independent thought may be anathema in the service, a soldier who abides by criminal decisions is still just as guilty as the people who make them, so, again, where is the line drawn?
No, not really: the military code prohibits killing civillians that pose no direct threat to the safety of the soldiers and- as shown in Iraq- US soldiers have restraint enough to refrain from firing on civillians even when rocks and bottles are being thrown at them.
The same cant be said for many other military groups (Israel, anyone?).
A soldier is not responsible for the decisions of his country's leaders: he's sworn an oath to serve and defend his country and that's exactly what he's required to do.
Look at WWII: soldiers that had nothing to do with the killing of the Jews- Those men that were just serving their country, were not prosecuted after the war ended.
Brian Hughley is not refusing to serve because he thinks there's human rights violations being comitted (in fact, there's a huge amount of world scrutiny on our military right now). He's shirking his duty and deserves whatever sentence a military court chooses to impose: he agreed to those terms when he enlisted, and if he didint think things through....tough. He's an adult.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
I was a shortstop for the Atlanta Braves but I quit the team when it was announced we would play the New York Yankees. I didn't sign up to play AL teams.
Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Just because the recruiter said one thing doesn't mean that the Drill Seargents didn't correct that idea....
Hell, almost 20 years ago when I went to infantry basic they asked us if what we read on our orders was what the recruiters 'promised', if not, too bad, unless it was a schoolmof some sort, than go see corporal so-in-so to see if there was a problem....
Of course, having enlisted in the infantry I kind of figured that if a war happened I would have had to fight and maybe die in it.....
Fucking pansy assed bitch......
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
No, 4 nasty assed protesting college (Kent State) students stood in front of the Ohio National Guardsmen and were shot for it....
Actually, I think that they weren't even with the protesters, just kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Well, hell, I was three-quarters right.....
It's better than Meatloaf did with 2 out 3...
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Bad shit from 30 years ago does not equal bad shit going to happen today.
If the military in Iraq was going to kill protestors, they'd be knee deep in blood by now. These guys might be young but they're pros: well trained and disciplined.
If someone was throwing rocks or bricks at my jeep and I had a gun, I might at least fire a warning shot: these guys are cool enough under pressure not to even do that.
Dont let the press hype machine fool you into thinking Iraq is another Vietnam situation where platoons are unsupervised and capable of doing whatever the fuck they want: it's very structured over there from what my friends that are serving tell me.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
"If the military in Iraq was going to kill protestors, they'd be knee deep in blood by now.
Well, I'm not going to say they're killing protestors. But "knee deep in blood" may not be far off from the truth. After all, in a year, we've already accumulated 700 deaths and 3800 woundings on the American side. Something tells me the Iraqi body count is quite a bit higher.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Printer-friendly view of this topic
