Flare Sci-fi Forums
Flare Sci-Fi Forums Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » The Rising Corporate Military Monster (Page 2)

  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: The Rising Corporate Military Monster
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
Unless the mercs get killed. Then it's nothing but "US CIVILIANS BRUTALLY MURDERED AND DESECRATED! LOOK AT THEIR BODIES! IRAQ IS EEEEEVIL!".

True, TSN..to a point. The only reason that we even know about these contracters getting killed was because the deaths were caught on camera and were already public knowledge. As
this article notes, over 80 "contract workers" were killed from April 5 to April 13 in Iraq. The article also noted that there are over 18,000 of these workers in Iraq.

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.

Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wraith:
What US control of policy? Actually, what US policy?

I wonder that myself, Wraith; Bush keeps muttering "We've gotta stay the course." which makes me want to ask "What IS the course?"

As a matter of fact, I've read that there is serious disagreement in Iraq between Bremer and his Provisional Government and US Military Commanders over various poilices in the country. There is also hand-wringing over who the Bushies are gonna transfer authority to on June 30.

SO to whose who say we should "Stay the course" I say that its damn hard to stay ANY course if we can't agree on what the course is.

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.

Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wraith
Zen Riot Activist
Member # 779

 - posted      Profile for Wraith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Never mind disagreements between Bremer and the US, there have been persistant disputes between British forces and the US. For example, a couple of weeks ago we were being criticised by the US for employing former Ba'athists. Guess what the US announced this week? Yes, former members of Saddam's regime are now allowed to be employed in the new government and police/armed forces.

Now, I personally had no real problem with the war itself. The political build up could have been handled far better on both sides of the Atlantic. Neither Bush nor Blair impressed in the slightest. Post war has been less impressive. I can discern very little planning from any of the coalition members; the US used the privatisation of Polish industry as the basis for what planning it did do. Hardly the most relevant precedant. Finally US forces are simply not suited by training or temperment to what is effectively a colonial war. The heavy handed tactics used have been repeatedly criticised by UK armed forces, with little result. Although at least one US think tank (I forget which) has recommended US commanders start reading our old Imperial Policing textbooks.

Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

 - posted      Profile for Ritten     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good God no, then they might get even more funked up ideas running through their expansionist power hungry minds.....

You Brits, burn those texts for the good of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am less impressed everyday I read the newspapers, they are shattering my common dreams....

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wraith:
Never mind disagreements between Bremer and the US, there have been persistant disputes between British forces and the US. For example, a couple of weeks ago we were being criticised by the US for employing former Ba'athists. Guess what the US announced this week? Yes, former members of Saddam's regime are now allowed to be employed in the new government and police/armed forces.

Frankly, the US really screwed up by disbanding the army and police forces and removing the Ba'athists in the first place; as one writer noted, any imperialist knows that you always buy off the army and police first. [Big Grin]
quote:
Originally posted by Wraith:
Now, I personally had no real problem with the war itself. The political build up could have been handled far better on both sides of the Atlantic. Neither Bush nor Blair impressed in the slightest. Post war has been less impressive. I can discern very little planning from any of the coalition members; the US used the privatisation of Polish industry as the basis for what planning it did do. Hardly the most relevant precedant. Finally US forces are simply not suited by training or temperment to what is effectively a colonial war. The heavy handed tactics used have been repeatedly criticised by UK armed forces, with little result. Although at least one US think tank (I forget which) has recommended US commanders start reading our old Imperial Policing textbooks.

One of those textbooks is The Small Wars Manual, written by several Marine Corps officers in the 30's based on their experiences in the Banana Wars that were waged in Central and South America. What those books don't mention is how often our interventions create turmoil and foster ruthless dictatorships in their wake.

The thing was, Saddam should not have been that hard an act to follow; if we had simply opened up imports, patched up the infrastructure and stabilized things, then pulled out, we would be hailed as liberators. Instead, Bush and Co. go in heavy handed, installing a puppet government and awarding non-competitive contracts to favored companies while failing to restore basic services. As far as the Iraqis are concerned, we are an occupying power, period.

As for the War, baiscally the neocon-artists deluded themselves into accepting what Chamaldi and his Iraqi National Congress told them; that they would be welcomed as liberators, no plan was necessary. The neocons thought they could install Chamaldi and his cronies as their puppet governnment, forgetting that the INC has NO street cred in Iraq and that their leader was convicted of embezzelment in Jordan.

(OK, time to get back on topic track.)

Here's another article on modern day corporate mercenaries (or as they are called nowadays, Private Military Forces [PMF]): Soldiers for Hire

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.


Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

 - posted      Profile for TSN     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"...Chamaldi..."

Um... Are you talking about Ahmed Chalabi, maybe?

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Right TSN...my apologies...though no matter how you spell the name, he's still a crook. BTW the (in)famous author Niccol� Machiavelli talks about the dangers of relying on mercenaries in Chapter 12 of his book "The Prince". Personally, I think his observations apply equally well to today's corporate mercs.

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.

Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256

 - posted      Profile for Cartman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"...former members of Saddam's regime are now allowed to be employed in the new government and police/armed forces."

Which anyone with half a brain could have predicted months before the war.

Oh wait, it was.

Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wraith
Zen Riot Activist
Member # 779

 - posted      Profile for Wraith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Exactly. And it's what's been going on in our zone for ages, but a couple of weeks ago the US was complaining about it; then of course they decided to do it themselves, at which point it became a Good Idea.
Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's a follow up article to "soldiers for Hire". This one is particulary interesting for the financial aspects it covers.

Rumsfeld, like his predecessor Robert McNamara (another Vietnam anology [Big Grin] ) is unfortunately ignorant of history. As Machiavelli noted in "The Prince", mercenaries by nature are very unreliable and can be a nation's ruination. Or in modern lingo, national defense is something you NEVER outsource...not to mention corporate armies can cause no end of strife in pursuing profits.

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.

Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256

 - posted      Profile for Cartman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd be more concerned about their lack of accountability at the moment.
Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:
I'd be more concerned about their lack of accountability at the moment.

So would I, Cartman....as this story indicates, those civilian contracters were allegedly deeply involved in the torture of prisoners.

One thing that disturbs me in particular was the possibility that contracters gave orders to soldiers regarding prisoner interrogation...I may not be a soldier but this strikes me as circumventing the chain of command at least! What were civilian contracters doing giving orders to US forces in a combat zone?

This in turn leads to a number of larger questions; where do these private security forces fit in the force structure over there? Also who do these "contracters" really answer to? For that matter, what would be their status under the Geneva Convention?

Also, this seems to me to confirm one of the dangers of these forces; that they can be used to circumvent the "rules of war" codified by the Geneva Conventions. Worse, it looks like US soldiers may end up being the scapegoats for these copntracters' actions.

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.

Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Highway Hoss
Member
Member # 1289

 - posted      Profile for Highway Hoss     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's a related article talking about the involvement of Private Military Contracters in the torture of Iraqi prisoners. This article asks similar questions to the ones I asked in my last post on this thread. IMHO sooner or later, the international community will have to take a look at this issue about where these groups fall as regards to the Geneva Convention.

--------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.

Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
But it's the reliance on private contractors to carry out tasks usually performed by government workers that has really come back to haunt us.

Conservatives make a fetish out of privatization of government functions; after the 2002 elections, George Bush announced plans to privatize up to 850,000 federal jobs. At home, wary of a public backlash, he has moved slowly on that goal. But in Iraq, where there is little public or Congressional oversight, the administration has privatized everything in sight.

For example, the Pentagon has a well-established procurement office for gasoline. In Iraq, however, that job was subcontracted to Halliburton. The U.S. government has many experts in economic development and reform. But in Iraq, economic planning has been subcontracted � after a highly questionable bidding procedure � to BearingPoint, a consulting firm with close ties to Jeb Bush.

What's truly shocking in Iraq, however, is the privatization of purely military functions.

For more than a decade, many noncritical jobs formerly done by soldiers have been handed to private contractors. When four Blackwater employees were killed and mutilated in Falluja, however, marking the start of a wider insurgency, it became clear that in Iraq the U.S. has extended privatization to core military functions. It's one thing to have civilians drive trucks and serve food; it's quite different to employ them as personal bodyguards to U.S. officials, as guards for U.S. government installations and � the latest revelation � as interrogators in Iraqi prisons.

According to reports in a number of newspapers, employees from two private contractors, CACI International and Titan, act as interrogators at the Abu Ghraib prison. According to Sewell Chan of The Washington Post, these contractors are "at the center of the probe" into the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. And that abuse, according to the senior defense analyst at Jane's, has "almost certainly destroyed much of what support the coalition had among the more moderate section of the Iraqi population."

We don't yet know for sure that private contractors were at fault. But why put civilians, who cannot be court-martialed and hence aren't fully accountable, in that role? And why privatize key military functions?

I don't think it's simply a practical matter. Although there are several thousand armed civilians working for the occupation, their numbers aren't large enough to make a significant dent in the troop shortage. I suspect that the purpose is to set a precedent.

You may ask whether our leaders' drive to privatize reflects a sincere conservative ideology, or a desire to enrich their friends. Probably both. But before Iraq, privatization that rewarded campaign contributors was a politically smart move, even if it was a net loss for the taxpayers.

In Iraq, however, reality does matter. And thanks to the ideologues who dictated our policy over the past year, reality looks pretty grim.

Paul Krugman, The New York Times



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
Member # 205

 - posted      Profile for Nim     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is all very unsettling.

Wasn't that what the american Death Squads in Bolivia were about?
Privatized employees totally unfettered by military ethics or laws?

Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3