quote: March 11, 2005 -- MADRID � Muslim clerics in Spain yesterday issued what they called the world's first fatwa, or Islamic edict, against Osama bin Laden.
The fatwa, on the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, called the terror lord an apostate and urged others of their faith to denounce the al Qaeda leader.
The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country's 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission represents 200 or so mostly Sunni mosques, or about 70 percent of all mosques in Spain.
The March 11, 2004, train bombings killed 191 people and were carried out by al Qaeda terrorists claiming revenge for Spain's presence in Iraq.
The commission's secretary general, Mansur Escudero, said the group had consulted with Muslim leaders in other countries, such as Morocco � home to most of the jailed bomb suspects � Algeria and Libya.
"They agree," Escudero said, referring to the Muslim leaders in the three North African countries. "What I want is that they say so publicly."
The fatwa said that according to the Koran, "the terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his organization al Qaeda . . . are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam."
It added, "Inasmuch as Osama bin Laden and his organization defend terrorism as legal and try to base it on the Koran . . . they are committing the crime of 'istihlal' and thus become apostates that should not be considered Muslims or treated as such." The Arabic term 'istihlal' refers to the act of making up one's own laws.
"We felt now we had the responsibility and obligation to make this declaration," Escudero said in an interview.
I guess it's just a mattter of too many muslims dying as a result of terrorism that has finally moved the muslim community to speak out with an official edict.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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No, but it's a step in eliminating the popularity that keeps muslims from reporting Bin Laden's activities and whereabouts.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Cartman
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Yeah, because all two billion of them know where he is and what he's up to for sure.
Do your pandering elsewhere.
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Pandering to whom, exactly? You're an ass if you think i'm saying that all muslims are in league with Bin Laden- you're trolling for a knee-jerk response.
You dont think this is a good thing? Kinda late, obviously, but still...
I'm intrested in what Flareites think of this: it's got mixed reactions in Spain (where the edict was announced).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Cartman
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1) I'm not the one dishing out sarcastic gibes like "eliminating the popularity" and "too many muslims dying" while pretending to be objective and open-minded. Choose your words better or don't say anything at all.
2) I think the people who are in Laden's inner circle and thus know more than, oh, his name won't care too deeply about what some Spanish clerics have to say.
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Considering how Osama's been using the fatwa tactic himself all these years (to declare the USA the spawn of Satan, etc. etc. etc....), I think it's an important step for other Muslims to issue a fatwa against Osama. It's refreshing to finally see relatively high-ranking Muslim clerics publishing the same arguments that many people here in the US (and elsewhere, of course) have been using to defend Islam in general after Osama and his lackeys have given it such a bad name.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Yeah, because all two billion of them know where he is and what he's up to for sure.
No, they don't know where he is, but a lot of them have been contributing monetarily, or at the very least sympathizing and providing "moral" support.
quote:2) I think the people who are in Laden's inner circle and thus know more than, oh, his name won't care too deeply about what some Spanish clerics have to say.
Of course, this fatwa won't have any effect on Osama's own group whatsoever. But the whole point is not to directly dismantle Al-Qaeda, but instead to start cutting off its popular support.
The big problem (as I understand it given my admitted limited knowledge base on the subject) is that for many normal Muslims, they may deplore the tactics used by Osama and his bunch, but they also despise the US and its western allies. Therefore, many of them probably sympathize more with Osama out of religious solidarity than anything else. So again, this new fatwa will help turn the popular tide against Al-Qaeda by showing the ordinary Muslims that their leaders aren't in agreement with his tactics and philosophies.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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quote:Originally posted by Cartman: 1) I'm not the one dishing out sarcastic gibes like "eliminating the popularity" and "too many muslims dying" while pretending to be objective and open-minded. Choose your words better or don't say anything at all.
Ah. I see the confusion. I was not being sarcastic at all.
One of the major hurdles curbing the violence in Iraq was the popularity the insurgents held among many people for "standing up to the americans" (as does Bin Laden in the Arab world overall).
It means that cooperation in finding the terrorists was nil, but as more innocents died, the general attitude is shifting from looking the other way to actively supporting a stop to the violence.
These spanish clerics would certainly not have issued this condemnation of Bin Laden if not for the attacks on their own country and if the victims were all non-muslims.
If the muslim authorities can undermine Bin laden's popularity and authority, it might be a real hamper to future terrorist plans.
Or not: that's what I wanted opinions on.
I'm a bit divided myself on weither this is going to be effective or weither it's several years too late.
You, however, were just trolling- either offer an opinion or leave the thread to people with one to offer.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Cartman
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'The big problem (...) is that for many normal Muslims, they may deplore the tactics used by Osama and his bunch, but they also despise the US and its western allies.'
'One of the major hurdles curbing the violence in Iraq was the popularity the insurgents held among many people for "standing up to the americans" (as does Bin Laden in the Arab world overall).'
Yes, which means that, as long as your reputation doesn't improve in the eyes of Ali El-Muslimi (and I'd be careful with the generalizations about "normal" muslims "contributing monetarily" if I were you), this fatwa isn't going to undermine anything except the authority of the very people who issued it. There, an opinion.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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Cartman, you're confusing my post with Minutemans- the "normal muslims" line was in his post and not part of my point on Bin Laden/ terrorist popularity. The "contributions to terrorists" thing was also his.
As to your opinion: I'd think that this fatwa would improve the cleric issuers popularity in their native Spain (where the wounds are still fresh) but overseas might well be a diffent story.
Of course, it's not as though there's a wealth of unfiltered news through muslim news channels, so this edict may not travel far at all.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Cartman
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Yes, I know. I was just replying to both of you at the same time. For great late-night efficiency.
And Al-Jazeera covered the news, at least.
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Cartman, when I say "normal Muslim", I'm referring to the kinds of people who live generally ordinary lives, not people with the more moderate (and from what I understand accurate) interpretations of Islam. Sorry for the confusion there.
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