"Well, kind of? I mean, they do have twenty-three seats in Lebanon's parliament. I don't present this as justification; but they aren't a ghostly, ungrounded presence like al Qaeda, and this seems to me to be an important distinction."
Well, isn't it a bit like if a bunch of Republicans started firing rockets at Canada, and the Canadians held our government responsible? (Or Democrats, if you prefer, but that seems less likely.)
quote:There hasn't been peace in the Middle East in a very long time.
I think there was a period of nice stability when that dude Nebuchadnezzar took the jews into his city. "And for a while, it was good...". I remember things being simpler then, I miss that. Nowadays it's just parking tickets and podcast. I'll bet my prostrate enlarges when I hit 50, say thankya.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
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This is what comes of having large militias uncontrollable by the central government. When they start a war with an outside power, either your entire country gets dragged in, or you have a civil war to stop them. Under any circumstances, Israel can't negotiate with an entity that is sworn to destroy it. Their options are to either let these people keep attacking them until one of them gets a nuke from Iran in ten years, or hit them now as hard as they can and try to break them. Nothing is made better by Israel being more patient. I almost hope Iran does get involved, if only so Israel will have an excuse to take out their nuclear capabilities...
Registered: Mar 1999
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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posted
Your prostate does not lay prostrate.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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Jason, well, it isn't like they've been in boats off of a city and RPGed it, but take the cummulative damage done to Israel, compared to the aircraft strikes and it seem to kind of even out. Although I think that the number of children killed in Israel is a far sight higher.
I do believe Israel is as in the right as they can get, you do not leave you troops in the hands of the enemy.
Hamas can not negotiate with Israel, as it does not exist to them, or are they eating their cake and trying to have it too?
Yes, there have been periods of stablity, but is that really peace? The US and Canada have peace, the Israelis and Arabs have preludes to the next attack.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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Yeah...Lebanon's ambassador sparred verbally with the ambassador from Israel yesterday at the U.N., callng for the international community to condemn Israel's "unprovoked attacks". I laughed. Israel's ambassador pointed to him and said (from memory here) "you know in your heart that if you could, you'd be sitting right here next to me, because you know getting rid of Hezbolah will benifit the Lebanese people."
Iran's been suprisingly quiet on the matter- waiting to pounce I suppose.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Right, so now you're just pulling out the canned "they made their own bed, now they all deserve whatever Israel does" response, is that it? Because if you are, there's really not much left to discuss in this thread.
Not that I'd put it that way, but kidnapping Israeli troops and sustained rocket attacks is certainly "asking for it"...it's certainly no blank check though, and Israeli forces have shown much restraint in their targets, it seems (if you have an alternate POV, I'd love to hear it).
The debate now is where will it all lead to?
I dont see the US getting involved unless attacked first (very unlikely at this juncture), but I can see France and possibly Russia condemning Israel after a while more.
BTW, anyone catch Bush's assinine press-conference (at the G-8 summit) remark about how he "would like to see Russia follow Iraq's lead in becoming more democratic"? Putin just said "I really dont think Russia needs to become like Iraq" wich drew a roar of laughter. A great comeback- you can hear the translator cracking up as he translates for the auidence.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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That was a nice little dig. (Which may wind up costing us all our lives. Not that I'm worried. (OK, I'm worried))
While we can argue about the proportions of the provocation and response, I think we can agree that both sides have some legitamate complaints to make about the other. Clearly this is very different from the situation in Iraq (clearly defined goals comes to mind), but I do see some parallels to be drawn. At least insofar as the Israeli Defense Force outmatches pretty much anything to which Hezbollah has access (even with phantom Syrian or Iranian backing). But just as we've seen in Iraq, force superiority does equate to success. By crippling Lebanese infrastructure (the by-now famous turning back their clock 20 years statement), Israel does risk bolstering support for Hezbollah by becoming the very monsters Hezbollah has painted them to be. That hasn't worked out so well for the US in Iraq. Granted, I don't think Israel has any illusions of "liberating" the Lebanese people, the winning of hearts and/or minds. Given their history in the region, their expectations of flowery receptions would have to be low.
I just wanted to point out that while I do appreciate the need to respond, their solution to this problem may wind up creating more problems down the road in the form of another generation of Lebanese youths remembering the time Israeli jets screamed overhead and blew the shit out of their power, water and relatives/limbs.
Registered: Sep 2000
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I was watching various news networks just not (not Fox though- I cant stand O'Riely) and the threat assessment for Hezbollah seems to be around 10,000 rockets stockpiled over the past decade.
That means either Israel really does "knock them back 20 years" or they can expect a near endless retribution of rocket attacks.
I dont think any military action is required for the next generation of Lebanese youths to hate Israel- that's pretty ingrained after 50 years. Israel's P.R. is so low among it's neighbors, they just dont give a fuck anymore.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Jason, the soldier has French citizenship, so France may likely be involved. Albeit probably not militarily, but they have already told Hamas to release publicly, what are they doing beind the scenes?
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Jason, the soldier has French citizenship, so France may likely be involved. Albeit probably not militarily, but they have already told Hamas to release publicly, what are they doing beind the scenes?
Huh. I was unaware of that...but Chirac did not mention it at all in any G8 coverage I saw. Not that Chirac has been any supporter of Isreal in the past- I cant tell how much of his attitude there is to pacify the muslim populace back home and how much is personal leanings. What does France have to bargain with in the region? Do they offer economic/humanitarian supoort to any of the players?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Jason, the soldier has French citizenship, so France may likely be involved. Albeit probably not militarily, but they have already told Hamas to release publicly, what are they doing beind the scenes?
Huh. I was unaware of that...but Chirac did not mention it at all in any G8 coverage I saw. Not that Chirac has been any supporter of Isreal in the past- I cant tell how much of his attitude there is to pacify the muslim populace back home and how much is personal leanings. What does France have to bargain with in the region? Do they offer economic/humanitarian supoort to any of the players?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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