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Author Topic: Dinos and the Flood?
First of Two
Better than you
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Okay, Omega, I'll bite...

Riddle me this.. If most of the Dinosaurs, as well as 99.999% of the animal and human life on the Earth died at the same time in the Flood...

How come we find the bones in different strata? It can't be because the heavier dinosaurs sank faster, because we find heavy dino bones in strata above light dino bones, and smaller animals, and mixed in... but nobody's EVER found a Saurian skeleton lying on top of an H. Sapiens one, as should have happened at least occasionally if the Flood story were true..

Nope, what we find, descending (and heavily simplified) are:

People and higher Mammals (and no dinosaurs)
Medium mammals (and no dinosaurs)
Primitive mammals and such(and no dinosaurs)
Shrewlike minimammals (and no dinosaurs)

(Iridium discontinuity)

More Big dinosaurs (and occasional tiny mammals)
Big Dinosaurs (and occasional tiny mammals)
Primitive Dinosaurs
Reptiles
Amphibians
Fish
And so forth

And this pattern repeats globally, aside from variation in the species found Everywhere, the same thing.

If the flood theory were correct, we should expect to see all the above jumbled together, hominid and saurian, as they would all have drowned in the same areas at the same time, and all fossil layers should be indistinguishable. They would have to be.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
Member # 91

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That's Jubes' status line, not mine. : )

OK, first, there are many exceptions. Second, what you don't know about is liquefication. It's a little-known event, believed to be caused by water forming a layer around particles of sediment. Liquification happens frequently in earthquakes, especially in port cities, because such cities are usually built on soft, unconsolidated clay-rich sediment, or on filled areas with large amounts of loose earth has been dumped to build up the level of the land. When these saturated deposits are shaken by an earthquake, they become a highly fluid mud, which can cause buildings to tilt or colapse. An example would be walking along the beach in such a location that, when a wave comes in, the water is up to your knees, and the rest of the time you're on dry ground. When each wave comes in, water is forced into the sand. When the wave returns to the ocean, the water forced into the sand gushes back out, removing the top layer of sand, forming a mush, which your feet sink into. On an Earth entirely covered in water, at high tide the sediment and the water it is saturated with would be compresssed slightly, as there would be more water above it. Then, when high tide passed, the water's buoyancy force would force the sediment upward. That's liquification. The sediment would have been so loosly packed that it would sort into denser and lighter particles. This would happen for several hours, twice a day, every day. If you had two layers of sediment, with the lower being more permiable than the upper, than when high tide came, water would accumulate at the interface, forming a lens. As these interfaces were almost never quite horizontal, the water flowed uphill. Organisms would have floated up to the lens immediately above during liquifiaction, and then would have been spread out over miles. Experiments have been performed, confirming that liquification would indeed account for the geologic layers and fossil sorting in the same order you mentioned.

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HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'.
KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh!
HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zoo-owli-zhiv'.
RANDOM: Ni!


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Kosh
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I think the Iridium layer says it all. Asteroid, impact, bad air, little Sun light, death on a large scale.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx


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First of Two
Better than you
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Nevertheless, liquefaction doesn't explain why dinosaurs are not found mixed in with hominids, large mammals, or other "modern" fossils. Show me a trilobite in the same rock with a mammoth, and we'll talk.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Iridium layer? I'm not familiar with the name. Please enlighten me.

Will a trilobite and a human footprint do? In 1968, fossils of human footprints and definite trilobites were found 43 miles northwest of Delta, Utah. I'd scan you the picture if I had a scanner. And as I said, when mixed at random in liquefication experaments, fossils sort out into the general order found most places on Earth. This includes dino fossils.

------------------
HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'.
KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh!
HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zoo-owli-zhiv'.
RANDOM: Ni!


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HMS White Star
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Iridium is a substance (perhaps an element I don't quite remember) that isn't found commonly on earth but is found in some asteriods, what happened would be the big *ss asteriod fell out of sky, impacted with the ground vaporized and left this Iridium dust to settle on the ground, after a while the Iridium gets covered by dirt and is found by science dudes. Well that's not a good explaination but I have to go to sleep and my mom is annoying me.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )



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Diane
aka Tora Ziyal
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Another theory of how dinos became extinct.

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"


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Kosh
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It is a very thin layer, I think I've seen somewhere that it covers the earth, about the same time as a mass extinction.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx


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First of Two
Better than you
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There are many dino fossils below the iridium layer, there are none above it, only small mammals. Logic would seem to dictate that whatever caused the iridium layer had a hand in ending the dinosaurs. Since iridium is rare on Earth but common in asteroids, and since only a global atmospheric event would be enough to distribute it worldwide...

*idly wonders if the Utah footprints all have the same heel-toe depth. Bets they do. Human feetsprints slogging through mud won't, however*

Actually, I wouldn't hold much belief in footprints unless the toes were clearly visible. Too many theropods or thecodonts could leave, and have left, similar footprints in mud -- causing the occasional brief stir.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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Yes, but God caused all the water of the Flood, and if he wanted it to have iridium in it, he could.
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First of Two
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Well, that's the advantage of believing in an omnipotent deity, isn't it? When the facts desert you, you can always say "If He wanted it to be this way, it could be, and nothing would change about my argument."

Of course, the depths of faulty logic THAT idea dwells in are only explorable with the Alvin probe...

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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OK, first there are several iridium layers, each as thick as the one usually associated with mass extinction, and none of them have any extinction associated with them according to the geologic timescale. Second, you still ignore my argument about liquification arranging the fossils in their present order. Third, there is no evidence that that iridium came from an asteroid. It's quite possible that the iriduim was on Earth to begin with, and was distributed by the flood. And maybe I should be more specific about that footprint. SHOEprint would be more accurate. I've got the picture of the inprint of a relatively modern street shoe (no tread, heal extended about .5", not sure what you'd call that) with a trilobite fossil imbedded in the sole.

------------------
HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'.
KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh!
HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zoo-owli-zhiv'.
RANDOM: Ni!


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Diane
aka Tora Ziyal
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And the approx. age of the shoe is the same as the trilobite?

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"I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know."
--Picard to Data, "In Theory"


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First of Two
Better than you
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And the source of these reports on the multiple layers of iridium and their relative thicknesses is...? (By "source" I don't mean the Creationist book you found this in, but rather HIS source, or the original source, the research or scientific paper that describes it.)

You know, around here (where I live) that would be a new thing, a Creationist book that actually documents its scientific sources WITHOUT referring only to other Creationist books.

That, I might have to buy and read.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"


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First of Two
Better than you
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Oh, and regarding "Liquification:"

If explanations based on victim habitat and mobility are absurd, the hydraulic sorting apologetic is flatly contradicted by the fossil record. An object's hydrodynamic drag is directly proportional to its cross sectional area and its drag coefficient. Therefore when objects with the same density and the same drag coefficient move through a fluid, they are sorted according to size. (Mining engineers exploit this phenomena in some ore separation processes.) This means that all small trilobites should be found higher in the fossil record than large ones. That is not what we find, however, so the hydraulic sorting argument is immediately falsified. Indeed, one wonders how Henry Morris, a hydraulic engineer, could ever have offered it with a straight face.

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"When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"


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