posted
Wasn't there a signature here that had Jefferson saying, "Question even the lord himself, for God would favor reason over blind faith" or something like that. Anyone care to give the real quote?
------------------ "Goverment exists to serve, not to lead. We do not exist by its volition, it exists by ours. Bear that in mind when you insult your neighbors for refusing to bow before it." J. Richmond, UB Student
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." -- Thomas Jefferson
posted
LOL! That's one of the funniest web sites I've seen in a long time.
Speaking of God and the scientific method, my second semester of quantum mechanics did more to confirm that God exists than almost any other experience of my life. The beauty of the universe at that level answered forever my questions about an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving Creator.
The Jesus part came later, and was significantly more personal.
------------------ Dane
"Mathematicians have long held that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards would eventually reproduce the collected wisdom of the human race. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true." -- Robert Silensky
posted
You know, I was just thinking, why don't people take more quantum mechanics courses?
First, was that your way of saying, "If you were as smart or enlightened as I, you'd never have fallen for all this Christianity crap?"
------------------ Dane
"Mathematicians have long held that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards would eventually reproduce the collected wisdom of the human race. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true." -- Robert Silensky
posted
No. Believe me, I fell for it for quite some time, but I grew out of it with the accumulation of knowledge and experience, emphasis on the latter.
Or to use the language of a Fundie pamphlet I read recently: "You can be FREED from baseless suppositions!"
Yeally, now. Think about it. Is a Universe, 99.9999999999999% of which is immediately fatal to human life, likely to have been made by a benevolent creator solely for our use?
------------------ "Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
posted
In other words, it was your way of saying, "If you were as MATURE as I am, you wouldn't have fallen for that Christianity crap?"
I must confess I'm a little bit confused. I said something along the lines of, "Based upon my study of theoretical physics, I've drawn this conclusion." Isn't it a bit presumptuous to dismiss my conclusion as asinine without having observed what I observed? It's as if I said, "Based upon my experience from lunch, I believe that pineapple is delicious on pizza," and you replied, "Having studied menus from restaurants in Italy for several years, I am prepared to say you are a fool for reaching that conclusion." Before you call my "suppositions" baseless, shouldn't you examine the evidence upon which I'm basing them?
Also, re-read my first post. I said that the ordered beauty of the universe helped convince me that a good God existed, not that the beautiful universe itself was good. I made no assumption that that which is beautiful must also be good. Furthermore, I never said that the universe was created "solely for our use." I don't feel the need to attack your position by putting words in your mouth; please give me the same courtesy.
First of Two, you strike me as a true intellectual and a truth-seeker, not a fundamentalist who ignores the rules of logical inquiry and debate when his beliefs are challenged. I think I've based my understanding of the universe on sound facts and logical reasoning. I invite you to challenge that understanding using sound facts and logical reasoning because I recognize I don't have a corner on the truth and it's important to me that I get it right. If you feel the same, then by all means, let's continue with this.
------------------ Dane
"Mathematicians have long held that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards would eventually reproduce the collected wisdom of the human race. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true." -- Robert Silensky
posted
Yeah, I HAVE been biting at people lately, haven't I?
Okay, then. Based upon MY studies of physics, chemistry, biology, etc., (admittedly, I have a tendency to go for breadth, not depth, but I do keep up on the journals) the universe is a wondrously complex place with great beauty visible even unto its smallest details... on the whole.
The fact that universal physical Laws appear to exist and the universe appears to be governed by them is potentially an amazing thing (although the Universe may not have had any other choice in the matter, it may be that things simply MUST be as they are), but it is hardly strong evidence for a Creator of any kind, much less a benevolent one. The Universe is a hostile place indeed. Plop a human or other life form down in a random spot, and it will not survive for long.
Observation, however, erodes the belief even further. Does a benevolent being arrange things so that unfortunate impacts can annihilate planetary populations? Was Tunguska part of the plan? What if the next Tunguska is over New York, or Paris, or London (or even someplace we could stand to lose, like Quebec? -- just kidding)
The spiral structure of a hurricane or a tornado is beautiful. But is it the act of a benevolent Deity? Doubtful.
Admittedly, all the structure in nature (is Chaos Theory structure, or lack thereof?) COULD be pointing to some Overmind in charge of everything... but that's no reason to assume that it has any attributes of the traditional Judeo-Christian "God." Really, if you're building a habitat for intelligent life, why not cook up a thick Dyson sphere? No having to worry about population limits, resources, etc...
And then there's Thermodynamics. whatever you do, MOST energy winds up being wasted. Isn't that an inefficient system for an omnipotent being to work by?
Oh, and it should be considered that the fact that Universal Laws do in fact appear to BE universal could be an argument AGAINST a Deity's involvement, not for it. I mean, the whole idea of prayerful pleas is to get things CHANGED. If things are CHANGED, then the order of nature is violated. Since the order of nature is not violated...
------------------ "Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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