Daryus:

"you felt you shredded his arguments"

I was actually refering to his final argument, about China being the only viable nuclear threat. That was just silly.

"Your argument currently stands as: "Don't tax people, its bad mmm'k? Don't spend on welfare, its a drain mmm'k? We need a missile defence, even though an all out strike from Russia would obliterate the entire world, NMD or no NMD mmm'k!""

Umm, no. My argument is more like "A) Well, higher taxes hurt the economy, so don't raise taxes unless all other options have been exausted. That's just common sense. B) Don't spend more on welfare than you're spending now, because you'd be better off flushing the money down the toilet and expecting to do any good with it. Try and fix the program, THEN see how much money you need. No use pouring water into a bucket with one huge hole in the bottom, is there? C) And it's not Russia I'm worried about. Russia wouldn't attack us. We could reduce their country to rubble just as quickly as they could ours. That's the thing that kept us both from being obliterated during the cold war: deterrence. What I'm worried about is some whacko that doesn't CARE about whether we nuke him or not, to which China sold the technology they obtained via Bill."

"What you need to do, if you have any conscience is to help those less fortunate. That means giving out some of what you have to others."

What makes you think I don't? This is one of those contradictory liberal things: they don't want religious people forcing their morals on others by legislation, and yet they try to do the exact same thing. What, are your morals better than mine? I give freely and cheerfully, both of time and money, and I think everyone else should, too, if they can. But I'm not going to try to force them to. My problem is not with helping the poor: it's with the government confiscating huge amounts of my income under the GUISE of helping the poor. 1: It's not the freakin' government's JOB to help the poor. 2: I can do it a whole freakin' lot more efficiantly than the government, 'cause it's my money, and I know how best to use it. That, and the government has horrendous efficiancy rates. 3: The government DOES NOT have the right to take such huge amounts of money, and thus power over my own life, away from me. You think that once the government starts rediculous taxation rates, they're going to ever quit? Or that they're not going to use that power to force you to obey them? 4: When was the last time a government program actually solved anything, anyway?

Look at the eighties. Highest level of personal prosperity that we'd ever seen. And you know what? That was accompanied by the highest level of charitable giving, too. People will be generous with their money, so long as the government leaves them with any.

"If your system works so well, why is it that at the end of the Reagan period, over 50 million Americans did not have access to health care, and needed food coupons to eat?"

Your source being? I don't accept this statistic any more than the numbers Clinton and Lieberman made up in their respective speeches about the same thing. A fifth of the country was NOT on welfare progs. Ain't no freakin' way. And they did have access to health care, unless they lived in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness: emergency rooms.

"Oh, and don't use the 'they are lazy' or 'they are mentally challenged' lines. They're feeble."

No, they're true. What do YOU think happened to all those people who by all rights should be institutionalized, but can't be (thanks, JFK)? They can't take care of themselves. Hmm, where WOULD they live? I wonder...

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

People like HAMAS, the Shining Path, Iran, North Korea....they don't want to know from missiles. They want WARHEADS. They want shit someone can smuggle in piece by piece & rebuild inside the borders of "The Great Satan." Let's see how well your NMD is gonna work when Khalil & Ahmad frag the Super Bowl with a tiny 500 kt device in a Chevy.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

It's not just the TECHNOLOGY...it's the PHILOSOPHY as well. "Now...you're an intelligent man" (he said like Ted Koppel), left me expalin to you in simple terms Chinese philosophy: They're like the Romulans. They will plot. They will scheme. They will let others do work FOR them. But will they take an OVERT role or action unless completely certain of the outcome? FUCK NO. This is why they make rumblings at Taiwan, but won't attack outright or take back Quemoy or Matsu. They can't be sure just how far the US would retaliate. So..they rattle the saber occasionally to shake us up & assess us.

The Chinese can sell missile technology all they WANT. it doesn't mean that the buyers will be capable of yielding a long-range or even intermediate-range ICBM. It's not just warheads & missiles. it's tracking equipment, support staff, training, a million other things. This is not shit that can be done in secret.

Nations don't do shit like that anymore. They train small commando unitsto handle it for them on the griounds of "plausible denialbility." You should know all about that...remember the Reagan years & all those fun little "Jeezo-Juntas" they played with in the Lower Americas?

quote:

---

Omega participates well in class, but does not grasp the concepts at hand.

---

LOL!!!

"Chinese philosophy: They're like the Romulans. They will plot. They will scheme. They will let others do work FOR them. But will they take an OVERT role or action unless completely certain of the outcome? FUCK NO."

Are you willing to bet your life and the lives of everyone you care about on that assumption?

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

I can see it now....walking into NSA or FAC...getting everyone's attention & proclaiming, "Ladies & gentlemen, I'm sorry to tell you this...but all your work is incorrect. Your decades of experience & your integral knowledge & skill has led you astray. All those intense years of struggle, the broken marriages, the inability to divulge even the smallest piece of information to your loved ones has been for naught. Our boy Omega here has all the answers, knows all the thoughts of all the leaders of all the Bad Nations In The World, & HE....has singlehandedly replaced you. Collect your things & pick up your paychecks at the front gate. You have 10 minutes."

Oh agreed. But don't go arbitrarily cutting funding either. It'll hurt people.

"And it's not Russia I'm worried about. Russia wouldn't attack us. We could reduce their country to rubble just as quickly as they could ours. That's the thing that kept us both from being obliterated during the cold war: deterrence. What I'm worried about is some whacko that doesn't CARE about whether we nuke him or not, to which China sold the technology they obtained via Bill"

Last time I looked, they were saying that espionage had been going on since forever. Just because they busted it open on Bills watch doesn't mean he was incompitent with security. Hell, it probably means that he caught the bastards red handed (no pun intended) where Granddaddy Ron & co failed.

"1: It's not the freakin' government's JOB to help the poor."

Uhh, actually, if they are democratically elected, and came to power on that platform, then it IS their job. Or did you miss that?

"3: The government DOES NOT have the right to take such huge amounts of money, and thus power over my own life, away from me. You think that once the government starts rediculous taxation rates, they're going to ever quit? Or that they're not going to use that power to force you to obey them?"

Adolf, Adolf! Come to America Adolf, all the Democrats want you to lead their party! Sometimes pal, you really spew unadulterated crap.

"4: When was the last time a government program actually solved anything, anyway?"

'We have nothing to fear but fear itself'. Great depression. Govt spending stimulates the economy. Do you have any idea how fiscal policy works anyway? The governments job is to help steer the economy, not to control it.

"Look at the eighties. Highest level of personal prosperity that we'd ever seen."

And the greatest disparity between the rich and poor. But I guess you missed that.

Daryus Said: "If your system works so well, why is it that at the end of the Reagan period, over 50 million Americans did not have access to health care, and needed food coupons to eat?"

Omega said: Your source being? I don't accept this statistic any more than the numbers Clinton and Lieberman made up in their respective speeches about the same thing. A fifth of the country was NOT on welfare progs. Ain't no freakin' way. And they did have access to health care, unless they lived in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness: emergency rooms.

Daryus says: My source? John Pilger, who was referring to a US congressional finding. Look it up. I have no interest in making up numbers. If you don't believe it, tough. Emergency rooms. RIGHT! So basically you have to be close to dead before they'll do anything. Oh that sounds like a functional system to me!

By the way, do you really believe that every homeless or unemployed person has something mentally wrong with them? Or just the ones who disagree with you?

"Again, Russia has the tech, too, and China seems willing to sell it to anyone with the dough. In contravention of treaty, I might add. And again, you're assuming that China isn't threat enough. I wouldn't be willing to risk three hundred million lives on your interpretation of Chinese military philosophy."

I should think that the 6000 ICBMS you have would be enough deterrent against the 24 China sports. As you so beautifully pointed out, mutual deterrence worked against Russia. Think about it.

BTW Shik, lmao on the last post. Well said.

The NSA. You TRUST the NSA? *sigh*

The government's job is to help the poor? Where does it say that? Point me to the article in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that says that.

The government's job is to promote EQUALITY. That means, to see that everybody starts the race at the same starting line. Equal OPPORTUNITY. To promote education, learning, activity. What you make of your opportunities is YOUR problem.

You're asking the government to promote EQUITY. That's where everybody FINISHES the race at the same time.

Equality is easy. Equity is IMPOSSIBLE. (Not to mention unnatural, artificial, dangerous, etc.) Harrison Bergeron lived in a world of equity (Doesn't ANYBODY read Vonnegut anymore??)

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Again, nonsensical. Pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you argue against it.

Daryus:

re: welfare

"But don't go arbitrarily cutting funding either. It'll hurt people."

As I said, that's not what I'm advocating.

"Uhh, actually, if they are democratically elected, and came to power on that platform, then it IS their job. Or did you miss that?"

Uhh, actually, only if stated so in the constitution of said country, either originally or by ammendment. So says the tenth ammendment. Or did you miss that?

"Sometimes pal, you really spew unadulterated crap."

I would point out that you didn't deny that I was right. History of the US has shown that consistantly, once a liberal government has taken power over you, the only way you get it back is if a conservative gets elected.

"Great depression. Govt spending stimulates the economy."

Well, then it's kinda funny how the depression didn't show any signs of ending until WW2.

"The governments job is to help steer the economy, not to control it."

The government trying to steer the economy is what caused the depression in the first place.

re: eighties

"And the greatest disparity between the rich and poor. But I guess you missed that."

And the fewest actual NUMBERS of poor. More people jumped straight from lower to upper class than stayed in the lower class. But I guess you missed that.

"Emergency rooms. RIGHT! So basically you have to be close to dead before they'll do anything."

Do you have any idea how emergency rooms work? You can go there for a shot of cordrizone (sp) if you run into poison oak. Heck, I would have had to go there because I had a piece of dirt on the inside of my eyelid, if it had happened six hours later (eye-dude would have been closed for the three day weekend). "Emergency" does not mean "life-threatening emergency".

"By the way, do you really believe that every homeless or unemployed person has something mentally wrong with them?"

Strawman attack. I never said this. I said that a "good number" of them do. And you didn't answer MY question: where exactly do you think that all the mentally disabled people that can't take care of themselves are, if not homeless? I can think of a specific case in which one started a fire in an abandoned building, reported it, and left. A fireman died searching for them. That kid (early twenties, if that old) had a mental problem. He was diagnosed as having one. He had a home to go to. He had no problems with his parents. He simply chose to be homeless, due to a mental condition, and it cost a couple kids their father.

"I should think that the 6000 ICBMS you have would be enough deterrent against the 24 China sports. As you so beautifully pointed out, mutual deterrence worked against Russia."

Yeah, but active defence is preferable to assuming that the psyche of your adversary will remain stable. Why are you guys against missile defence, anyway? You have no argument.

You'd all do well to listen to First.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Well, here's something interesting. My former history teacher told me that California's public education used to be one of the best in the country while he was going to school (around the 60s), and schools then were funded by property tax (well, some tax on houses). After this tax was abolished by a proposition, quality of Califonian public schools went straight downhill.

"It's not the freakin' government's JOB to help the poor."

But it's the freakin' government's job to help the rich? What do you call tax cuts for businesses? Or tax deductions for business costs? When's the last time YOU got a tax deduction off your plane ticket?

Oh hey, here's some more good news. Did you know that there are about 680 people in Texas jailed for over 18 years for marijuana possession? Didn't old W. do the same thing?

Think the minimum wage is too high? How about accounting for inflation? The minimum wage is now 5.15 nation-wide. Adjusting for inflation, the wage was the equivalent of approx. $7 a few decades ago.

So you want to spend more on the military. Exactly HOW is more money going to prevent somebody from firing a nuclear missile? Is it even possible to detect it before it goes off?

Both W. and Gore are corporate puppets, no doubt about it. We have tax money paying for the Republican and Democratic conventions, and still they sell sponsorship to the highest bidder. Businesses need to get OUT of politics. Heck, even Businessweek had an article saying that. Let's get someone who's NOT afraid of standing up to corporations. Vote Ralph Nader.

You know, my parents run a small collectibles shop out of my late grandmother's house. It isn't much, but the business deductions help us afford to keep the family farm, which we mightn't be able to do on their retirement money alone.

"Oh hey, here's some more good news. Did you know that there are about 680 people in Texas jailed for over 18 years for marijuana possession? Didn't old W. do the same thing?"

Maybe, maybe not. Can you prove it, and isn't it beyond the statute of limitations? And why, why, WHY do we care SO much about potheads going to jail for knowingly breaking the law when there are literally thousands of even stupider laws (like forcing the non-development of 10 acres of land to protect a 'wetland' the size of a card table), which can get you without you even knowing about them? I mean HELLO, is there anyone left in this country besides the profoundly retarded that doesn't know that maryjane is ILLEGAL? *(except in some states for medical purposes.. 'yeah, that's it, medical...')

"Think the minimum wage is too high? How about accounting for inflation? The minimum wage is now 5.15 nation-wide. Adjusting for inflation, the wage was the
equivalent of approx. $7 a few decades ago."

Inflation is too high. Who's fault is that? *BZZT!* 70's Carterism. Democratic Congress.

"So you want to spend more on the military. Exactly HOW is more money going to prevent somebody from firing a nuclear missile? Is it even possible to detect it before it goes off?"

We can detect missiles at launch, and during boost phase(not to mention before launch, with a good spysat).. but that doesn't help if ya can't shoot 'em down. However, I do think the currect system is too unreliable to be practical.
Most folks who would launch a nuke wouldn't, if they knew the result would kill them too.
Terrorists are different, and require a different strategy. Personally, I'm for saying to Hell with propriety, and sending a few elite special forces into some of these 'training camps' after dark to leave a message. The message, to be found amongst the guts of the would-be terrorists by the next camp visitor: "We hit back, we hit harder."

"Businesses need to get OUT of politics. Heck, even Businessweek had an article saying that."

Yep. But the time's not coming soon. You'd have an easier time trying to get Religion out of politics. They shouldn't go together, but they're inextricably linked in the minds of too many.

And besides, then government would have to get out of business, too... and there goes all your price regulation, environmental legislation, development legislation, housing codes, commerce legislation, antidiscrimination in hiring laws...

"Vote Ralph Nader."

Nice sentiment, but I'd druther vote for a candidate who has a chance in hell of winning, even if it IS the lesser of two evils. At least until the US gets a "None of the Above" ballot for Primary and General elections.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

"My former history teacher told me that California's public education used to be one of the best in the country while he was going to school (around the 60s), and schools then were funded by property tax. After this tax was abolished by a proposition, quality of Califonian public schools went straight downhill."

This tells you nothing. How much was being spent before. How much is being spent now? What other changes have taken place? Get all the facts before you make your decision.

"But it's the freakin' government's job to help the rich? What do you call tax cuts for businesses?"

Helping the economy. Who do you think drives it? The government? *L*

"Did you know that there are about 680 people in Texas jailed for over 18 years for marijuana possession? Didn't old W. do the same thing?"

Again, get all the facts first. I will say this one more time: There is NO evidence that Bush EVER used drugs. There was never even a real aligation of it. 'Course, if you really wanna bring drug use into it, we've got a very reliable source that says Al was quite into the stuff in his younger days. You don't happen to read the NY Times?

"Think the minimum wage is too high?"

No, I think it's unconstitutional and pointless, just like overtime laws. We've been through the inflation that it would cause. Besides, isn't it discrimination against salaried workers? Or are all of them "the powerful", and thus not deserving of the government's protection, ala Gore?

"So you want to spend more on the military. Exactly HOW is more money going to prevent somebody from firing a nuclear missile?"

You're not paying attention. The objective of missile defense is not to prevent the launch of a missile. It's to prevent it's impact, and the subsequent death of ten million people or so. And we also need more money so our soldiers won't have to live off handouts from the government. And to actually get our forces into usable condition would be nice, too.

"Both W. and Gore are corporate puppets, no doubt about it."

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the companies give money to the cantidate who's existing views help them, instead of doing so to try to change said views? 'Course, the only way to judge that would be by how often the cantidate had changed his positions in the past. Hmm, I wonder who wins there...

"We have tax money paying for the Republican and Democratic conventions..."

Actually, IINM, one of those "powerful" that Gore is always ranting about came in and bailed out the Democrat convention. They didn't have all that much money to work with before he came along. Hardly funded by tax dollars, and hypocritical, besides. Don't know about the Reps, but I doubt it.

"...they sell sponsorship to the highest bidder."

Again, what evidence?

"Businesses need to get OUT of politics."

Why? Politics affect people as groups just as much as people as individuals. Moreso, with the success-hating liberals in power.

"Vote Ralph Nader."

Yes, ignore the fact that he's more liberal than even Al, at least on stated positions. With Al, that may not mean much.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw