------------------ "Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care" - The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight
Orion Syndicate
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
Member # 25
posted
A combination of both! I believe in a government controlled healthcare infrastructure but private money being used alongside public money to offer healthcare. I worked in the NHS last year, and the Trust where I was based had an MRI scanner under the PPP system. It works very well and the public gets served, and the state retains control.
Private healthcare works right now because not everyone can afford to use it, so the queues aren't that bad. A fully private system would mean everyone using that, and the problems that we have with the current NHS would manifest themselves into private healthcare. The NHS problems don't have much to do with management, but everything to do with the lack of investment. With cutbacks happening everywhere, the elastic is bound to snap at some point. This is why we need private money, but using it within the NHS framework. It would take several years (anything this complicated takes time if it is to be done properly) but the results would show.
------------------ The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #10
Where's all that fucking water coming from? - Captain of Titanic
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
Two Words: Two Tiers.
One high-quality tier with the best medicine for those who can afford it, and the other, low-quality tier with less treatment options for everyone else who can't.
CBC did a news serial about comparing Private to Public Health. A growing number of doctors are quitting public health practices to go into the higher wages supplied by private health. So what's left?
------------------ "Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care" - The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
posted
I'm all for a two-tier structure, and really must get round to joining BUPA at some point (that, or going to work for a company that has employee health care worth a damn). The big problems are:-
1. Public health care should be able to provide a certain level of care; it's ridiculous when the most basic services are unavailable or have long waiting lists. My boss' wife had her operation cancelled when she was in Pre-Op, for fuck's sake! My girlfriend has to have a nose operation (not cosmetic I might point out) yet could have to wait a year.
2. Public health care is so inefficient! At least when you go private you know what you're paying for. I think I saw figures that said the UK public health budget is $60 billion - or about �1000 per person. I'm damn not getting a thousand pound's worth of medical treatment per year! I have to pay for my own prescriptions and dental treatment!
But I still think - as do most people in this country - that there should be a health service; problem is, the government (regardless of whoever's in power) doesn't, and seems to be determined to screw it up as much as possible.
Orion Syndicate
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
Member # 25
posted
Tahna: No! No! No! I wasn't talking of two tier system. I was talking about integrating public and private into one system. We already have the infrastructure with the NHS Trusts, hospitals, clinics, GPs, etc etc. What we need is the money - that can come from both the exchequer and from the private sector who would work together to provide healthcare under the banner of the NHS. The private sector would obviously want a return for their investment which could be accomodated and is being accomodated at present. What we can't do is reject them off hand because they just want profits. They want profits, but they will help to provide better healthcare in a single tier system. Their pursuit of ever increasing profits could be pegged by the government who would be responsible for maintaining clinical quality and best practice.
As I said in my last post, the Public Private Partnership in the NHS is working well, not least at the Trust in which I worked. It's a good solution to the problem - what else are you going to do? "Oh I'm sorry your 3 month old daughter died Mrs Smith, but we couldn't accept private money which could have saved her life because they were just in it for the profits!" We have a serious problem, it's time for a serious solution and we have one on the table - it's up to everyone else to see sense. It's not private healthcare - it's better and it's still a national service.
Lee: The �1000 is a lot and I agree most of us don't get that much from it. It'll be better if we consider it a kind of insurance premium. We pay car insurance every year, a lot of people never see it because they're careful drivers but they still pay- just in case. This is what the NHS is - if people need the NHS, they can get treated in the NHS - the waiting list might be a fucking nightmare but most people will get treated and you don't have to worry about whether you're covered for healthcare just before you go in for neurosurgery.
------------------ The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #10
Where's all that fucking water coming from? - Captain of Titanic
[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited May 18, 2001).]
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
So how can the lower class afford Private care? If they Private corporations want profits, how will they raise them? Higher costs, of course. And not everyone can afford insurance, and like JK said earlier, if there is insurance provided, it probably is very poor.
I suppose they don't go for it then, right?
------------------ "Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care" - The President of the United States of America, [i
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited May 18, 2001).]
Orion Syndicate
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
Member # 25
posted
Oh, for fuck's sake you're still not understanding my point - there will be no separate private healthcare. What I'm saying is that you get private money and technology, integrate it into the NHS and then pay the private sector for using it. Healthcare will however be provided under one system - the NHS - no private healthcare! As for the insurance, National Insurance contributions are taken directly out of the wages so you don't have to worry about a separate healthcare policy. If you need hospital treatment, you therefore just go and get treated.
If the private sector is used, national insurance contributioins will go up I grant you that, but that's the price you pay for high quality public services. I really despair when people complain about poor services yet aren't willing to pay the increased taxes necessary to improve them. You can't have it both ways - do you want lower taxes or quality public services. Take your pick!
------------------ The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #10
Where's all that fucking water coming from? - Captain of Titanic
[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited May 22, 2001).]
posted
A system with more doctors than bureaucrats would be nice.
A system where doctor's recommendations can override the bureaucrats' shears would be nicer.
But, see, the only way to keep costs down is to DENY services.
And, to be unpleasant about it, as the 'baby boomers' get older (and more desperate to cling to life), the costs of keeping them alive is only going to rise and rise. As it is now, with social security alone, we've got two working people paying for the upkeep of each retired person. When you factor in medicare, geriatrics, prescriptions...
I don't know about you, but I don't have the cash for that. I can't pay decent rent as it is. If they take any MORE out of my paycheck, _I_ would have to go get assistance... which means that the rest of you would be paying even more, for ME.
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
posted
Two? I thought it wouldn't hit a two-to-one ratio for some time now...
You all seem to be forgetting the concept of a charity. The lower taxes are, the more people contribute voluntarily. Thus you have the money in the hands of someone who WANTS to give it away, and can actually do so. The federal government is pretty well the LEAST efficient way that you could go about something like this. Or nearly anything else, for that matter.
------------------ "How do you define fool?" "I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination." - CJ Cherryh, Invader
Orion Syndicate
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
Member # 25
posted
quote:You all seem to be forgetting the concept of a charity. The lower taxes are, the more people contribute voluntarily.
The Health Service isn't an instutution that should or could be run like a charity. It's an absurd idea because as we've already heard, people don't like parting with their hard earned cash. Leaving the budget of the healthcare system to chance would be taking too many risks with peoples lives and as such cannot be allowed.
I'd be all for a system where people opt out of paying contributions towards the health service and by doing so automatically waive their rights to receive any healthcare if they get ill - unless they pay for it right then and there - so if you have a brain tumour that's about to explode, tough shit - You didn't pay! That'll never work because the sympathetic and non ruthless people who don't like these measures would object. This leaves the National Insurance contributions system which provides healthcare for everyone who needs it whenever they want. You'll have the waiting lists to contend with, but you'll get treated. If you want waiting lists to fall, don't complain about paying more, because you can't get something for nothing. You pay the money, you'll have a quality system delivered to you, but without the money, it can't be done.
------------------ The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #10
Where's all that fucking water coming from? - Captain of Titanic
[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited May 22, 2001).]
posted
A friend sent me this joke about a year ago - be warned that it is a bit rude - enjoy!
HEALTH PLANS...HMO vs. PPO The Queen of England was visiting one of Canada's top hospitals, and during her tour of the floors she passed a room where a male patient was masturbating. "Oh my God", said the Queen, "that's disgraceful, what is the meaning of this?" The Doctor leading the tour explains; "I am sorry your ladyship, this man has a very serious condition where the testicles rapidly fill with semen. If he doesn't do that 5 times a day, they'll explode, and he would die instantly." "Oh, I am sorry", said the Queen. On the next floor they passed a room where a young nurse was giving a patient a blow job. "Oh my God", said the Queen, "What's happening in there?" The Doctor replied, "Same problem, better health plan."
As to the healthcare issues, I beleieve the current one is just fine. The government pays for a part, and if you have your own private health plan then the rest is all free as well.
------------------ It never stops, when my mama ask me will I change I tell her yeah, but it's clear I'll always be the same Until the end of time - Tupac Shakur, Untill the End of Time
Orion Syndicate
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
Member # 25
posted
But again, the poor amongst us wouldn't be able to afford the private healthcare plans or would't be bothered to set one up. The NHS provides for the whole population so if you are ill, you get treated. I do agree with Tahna in that a two tier system can't be good but if you've got the NHS at the foundation providing for the healthcare needs of the nation, everyone gets treated equally. I have no problem with private healthcare outright, but believe in a strong NHS first, and then anyone who isn't happy can go private. Everyone still gets treated.
I was talking about NI contributions yesterday, and what do I find when I watch the news that evening, NI contributions are being discussed. Damn, I'm good.
------------------ The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #10
Where's all that fucking water coming from? - Captain of Titanic
[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited May 23, 2001).]
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