posted
An economy based on placing value on goods and services must exsist.
Money. Madness. There are so many conflicting exchanges of dialogue to say who is most correct. But can a Space Empire survive without money? Yes. They can survive and flourish without physical money, but the concept of money has to exist. What is the state of Federation money in the 24th century? Electronic currency. To better understand money we must look back in out own history and when money was first invented and why. Before money economy relied on the trade and barter system. No one had a job. Living was your job. A person had to build their own home, their own furniture, make their own pots, make their clothing, and grow their own food. If someone was better at making shoes than you were, you had to trade something to get those good shoes you wanted. The shoemaker might take three geese and a calf, and possibly dicker the "price" down to maybe one goose and a calf. But I'm sure the shoemaker wants the calf. Why? To make more shoes in the future. Now perhaps someone else wants some shoes but the shoemaker doesn't need a calf or geese, but could use a new table. This new person agrees to make a table in exchange for shoes. But does a table equal in value one goose and a calf? Some may say yes, other will argue no. The point is there is no set value for goods and services rendered and its all up to the parties trading. No doubt this started wars about "overpricing." The invention of money, or using spiral coils, and later coins, of precious metals, and jewels changed all this. Gold and silver could be weighed, and its weight set its value. So now shoes could cost one pound of gold, and one pound of gold might also get you one each goose. Gold, or rather money established value for goods and services. Money organized trading, and allowed for specialization in the crafts. The shoemaker can now exert all his talent to shoemaking and not worry about building a shoddy table for himself . Now he can buy a table from someone specializing in table making. And what happens when people start to specialize in their trade? They get real good at it. It generates innovation, new techniques of doing things, and spawns advances in technology. Had money never been invented I would not be using this computer to lay down my opinions. I'd probably be telling you about it as we hoed our fields. The next step in money is no doubt an electronic version. I believe the Federation uses e-money. It has to. Lets look at what we have seen from the episodes and movies:
In "Encounter at Farpoint", Dr. Crusher is seen shopping for garments. She finds ones and instructs the clerk to bill it to her account on the Enterprise. Starfleet personnel seldom need money because the ships are designed to accommodate everything via replicators. However, there is nothing like owning the genuine article. And on planets that have such articles available, they aren't going to give anything away for free, nor accept a trade if there is no established value set, hence the account on the Enterprise. We have heard Picard tell Lilly that Federation citizens don't strive for wealth and the cost of the Enterprise was based on economics she wouldn't understand. Its common for people to impress upon the whole their own ideas. I believe Picard was saying the he doesn't strive for wealth. I find it hard to imagine there is no human or other alien that does not strive for wealth. Someone out there is greedy and tries to accumulate all the wealth possible. People have been the same for thousands of years. Take away the settings and people from the 1490s are no different from the people of the 1990s, and the people of the 2470s aren't going to be much better. There is going to be evolution of civilization, but that can't get rid of all the greedy people out there. I don't think a First Contact will make us better people. What is the cost of the Sovereign class these days? Given e-money and diverse economics across the Federation, I think explaining the cost of the ship would entail far to many details that perhaps Picard himself doesn't fully understand it. He couldn't tell Lilly that it cost 47 million credits, because it doesn't just cost that. Its a complicated web of e-money, latnium (which some planets probably use with the introduction of Fereginar economics into the structure), trade contracts, imbursements for man-hours, and God knows what else. It was far easier to brush her off than go into details. Would you want to explain the concept of "buying" to a people that never invisioned the concept, or would you rather say, "We don't trade." That's what Picard went through. Good thing she didn't ask about the insurance on the Enterprise. Picard would have died from an aneurism. Captain Sisko and his son Jake have stressed that the Federation doesn't use money. They are on a space station that accommodates them so they don't need money. When dealing with aliens one often takes the role of representative for the whole of humanity, Starfleet and the Federation. It is more common to say "The Federation" doesn't do this or believes this, than to say "I" don't. Yes Nog isn't stupid and knows about the Federation, and he and Jake have been friends for some time, but I think its a human character flaw that makes us believe that aliens will never understand humans. There remains a subtle discrimination against aliens and people with lesser knowledge, that it allows persons to substitute their own ideals for the ideals of the whole Federation, and to explain a complicated process such as the economy of the Federation with a little white lie. For instance if I went to Japan and was offered squid and kelp, I'd be inclined to say that "Americans don't eat that." I'd mean that I don't eat it and have never seen anyone else eat squid and kelp, but do I really know that no one in America eats it? Of course not. I'm telling a falsehood.
Money, or rather its decendant has to exist in the Star Trek universe despite the ultimate utopia idea indicating otherwise. Reverting back to a trade system is a step back, not progress forward. I won't venture to say that money in whatever form is backed by gold or latnium, but the concept of money and the use of that concept must exist for the Federation to remain a viable power. No money expresses a commune and communes revert back to a trade system and the system of specialization disentergrates to one based on jack-of-all-trades. This means the halting of technical advancement. Cultures eventually dissovle to become isolated tribes. And that is not the current state of the Federation.
Unless anyone can come up with a better economic plan, I'll hear it. But until then the Trek writers are oblivious to economic reason. It's extremely easy to say "We use no money", but the logic just isn't there.
[This message was edited by Cargile on April 04, 1999.]
posted
Internally, the Federation wouldn't need money. In a society where the basic needs of its citizens are met (such as is the case with replicators etc.) money becomes obsolete.
The only time "money" would ever come into play would be trade with other governments.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Destruction Drone: "Throw down your weapons and I will spare your miserable lives!" Rollbar: "That's the best offer we've had all day..."
posted
People argue that replicators take care of almost everything and therefore there is no need for money. But what we've failed to ask ourselves is: What if replicating something DID cost money?... There was that one episode where Data was trying to decide what present to get Kaiko and O'Brian when they got married. I seem to remember that there was some process where this replication of champagne glasses was billed to some sort of federation account of his. I think that people are paid in Credits, which is the interplanitary currency of the Federation. Each UFP officer probably has a salary that they are paid, and part of this salary probably goes to room/board/expense account. They are probably paying for the use of replicators for food... They are probably paying to hold their rooms on the enterprise. When they go on vacation to other planets, these same accounts are used. As for Bajor Currency ... well, we can convert Dollars into Francs and Pounds and Lira ... so there is probably an exchange rate for Bajoran Currency. Gold pressed Latinum seems to be a commodity that is also used for money. It's not that people don't have it, and don't use it. It's that Federation Society is based on Utopia conditions .. no one really needs to think/talk about credits/money/bills, and etc. (besides wich, where in the plot would the writers put it? [grin] )
------------------ If Galileo had lied to save his life, would America, or the West, or Space have been discovered? And if Columbus had never set sail, would the Earth still be flat?
posted
Actually, they were replicating the wedding presents for free, I think.
IMO, the whole notion of the Federation having internal currency is the result of viewers being unable to think in a non-capitalistic manner.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Destruction Drone: "Throw down your weapons and I will spare your miserable lives!" Rollbar: "That's the best offer we've had all day..."
posted
If the greedy people did exsist, then they could just replicate everything they wanted, just like every other federation citizen.....BTW, ure right. First contact didn't get rid of the concpet of unsing money. The abundance of resources did. Look: in restaurants, you get water for free. Want more water? Its free! Sure the restaurant has to pay for it, but they get the money for it from everyone all together. Buts money is so cheap that they can pretend to give it away for free, in that no one's going to be able to drink so much water that the restaurant will go bankrupt.
In star trek, with the invention of replicators and arguably before the invention of replicators, resources are so abundant that if money exsisted THEY WOULD COST NOTHING. If you wanted to buy clothes, u wouldn't pay lets say 20 credits because someone else would always be able to sell it to you for less becuase the clothes cost nothing to make.
But what about these miraculous replicators that amke everything free? Where did they come from? Look: today, there are LOTS of actors. So many actors, and so few acting jobs, that becoming an actor to make money is stupid. Ure chances of making lots of money as an actor are very low. Thus, only people who WANT to become actors become actors. In the federation, lots of people probabaly want to be scientists and engineers. Fortunately, in science, you can work alone without anyone else. But if you want to do something in practical science, such as BUILDING REPLICATORS, you have to want to do it and be really go at it, because so many people want to. You don't worry about material welth, which is already useless anyway, because you want to build replicators.
Now, in the few times we've seen money used, its only been with other civilizations besides the federation, where resources aren't as abundant and thus things cost money. So, federation citizens would only use money when dealing with outside civilizations. Where do they get this money from? I dought they get it from working. Once they get it, they have nothing to do with it unless they travel to a civilation that uses money. So where does the money come from? Maybe they replicate....I really don't know. But I dought the avergae federation citizen gets paid, because the avergae federation citizen does not spend alot of time in civilizations where money is used.
------------------ "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? 6,000? 60,000? How many people does it take admiral!?!" -Ambassador Picard during his command of the Enterprise-E in the Ba'ku incident.
posted
Cargile: It's rather like shouting down a well, isn't it? Not much of an echo, though.
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posted
I say there is no such thing as money. WHy?? In the 20th century, money motivates people to do things. Example Clothes desginers. D&G, DKNY,CK,Vesace...In the Startrek world, there are no such thing as designer clothes cause epople are not motivated by money thus the bad clothing styles and jumpsuits that everyone seems to wear. AKA Jake Sisko and Wesley Crusher.
posted
THAT, I must say, is the most stunningly persuasive of all the arguments in favor of the "no money" theory.
Been sharpening Occam's razor, haven't you?
--Baloo
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posted
The answer to the original question: They gave no answer in the ep. Likely, he just pulled some Emissary strings to get it for free.
------------------ Lyta Vorlon: "Our great mistake. Our failing. And now your failing. The error is compounded." Delenn: "What mistake?" Lyta Vorlon: "The first one, the one from which all mistakes proceed: The error of Pride..."
posted
Usually when one of the "classic" old arguments such as this one is dusted off and brought back to the forum, I just steer clear. But this time, what the hey. I have a question for most of the people arguing that the Federation has no internal money and that because of replicators and an abundance of resources fed citizens can pretty much own whatever they want. Say I want a whole load of dilithium (or some other rare unreplicatable item), can I just go out and ask for as much aas I want and recieve it? I'll answer my own question- no. If there is a limited amount of resources obviously not everyone can have some. So if I were able to have as much dilithium as I wanted, there wouldn't be any for you or anyone else. So how do I acuire a whole load of dithium for my starship? For that matter, how do I get a starship in the first place. Can every fed citizen just go out and get their own starship- it sure doesn't look like it to me. Yet some people do, hell some people may own a whole bunch of starships. I have to agree that we capitalist types do have a problem trying to wrap our limited 20th century brains around a moneyless society. And perhaps there are some viable (and perhaps fairly simple) forms of economics that we haven't and perhaps couldn't come up with on our own. We humans are fairly arrogant in thinking that we know it all, but meeting other races with totally different outlooks could provide insights to a great many things. All that aside, I still have a hard time comprehending a moneyless society where you can own property.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
As to the origianl question of where Sisko got the money- he's been taking the latinum bribes recieved from Quark all of these years and investing in bolian and deltan toupee manufactures.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I propose that it is likely that much energy in the 24th Century is provided through solar power. Such energy, after the initial investment and maintenance budget is paid for, becomes effectively limitless (at least, until the sun burns out.) If everything runs off of solar power, costs are dramatically reduced because no fuel bill is necessary. As for replicators... I always took it that they worked on an elemental or lower level. (Take some hydrogen, bond it with some oxygen, viola, water!) Elements, in some form or another, are everywhere, available to a spacefaring society. Take the asteroids, for example. Chock full of minerals and metals. Or comet bits, full of water and carbons. Or gas giants, for hydrogen, helium, ammonia, methane. and so on... Plus, I suppose even the Federation recycles. Hence, unlimited energy plus unlimited resources = radical economic change.
posted
Replicators do not create items for free. These items cost matter and energy. From what we know replicators work off of transporter technology whereas matter and energy are transformed into the other. Going by Mr. Einstein's proven formula e=mc2, a small amount of matter equals a large amount of energy. This means you need about 2.6x1015 joules to make a 6 ounce hamburger. If everyone on Earth in the 24 cent. has a replicator, where are they getting that much energy? The matter/anti-matter reactor plant out in the country? And you think people get nervous when a breeder reactor is planned for construction near their homes. I think people will not allow something that, if the core breaches, there is nowhere to eject it and you end up with a large hole in the ground and several billion dead. I'm with First of Two on the solar power idea. It's cheap and plentify and not likely to destroy the biosphere. So no, not everyone can go get drab clothes from their person replicators. There aren't any--or rather there shouldn't be any. (I doubt the ST writers would give it as much thought as I have. They'll have use believing anything.) Other points, someone has to do the menial jobs. So ask yourself, what is the worst job I'll do for nothing?
------------------ What do you mean I'm not kind. Just not you're kind. --Dave Mustaine "Peace Sells" MEGADETH
[This message was edited by Cargile on April 08, 1999.]
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