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Author Topic: Continuity has been changed,...
The359
The bitch is back
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Who said the Supermen had to be elsewhere? They could have just been with Khan, seeing as how they were most likely all "produced" from the same facility and stuck together.

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"Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."

-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans

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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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I still like my theory about Kahn trying to slingshot around the sun whenever the Eugenics Wars were, ending up time-warping to 1996, and then leaving for the depths of space. It's the only theory I've seen proposed that seems to fit all the facts.

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"This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
- God, "God, the Devil and Bob"

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PsyLiam
Hungry for you
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"The Eugenics definitely were going on in 1996. This is said explicitly in both "Space Seed" (TOS) and TWOK. The other dates are incorrect. You cannot accept that the history was changed, unless you can think of a decent explanation such as an alternate timeline, etc."

Now, let's do some simple maths to point out the HUGE hole in this argument.

Your argument: Space Seed and TWOK "expicitly" state that the Eugenics War occur in 1996.

For Space Seed, that is correct.

But, let's look at TWOK. Specifically, the dialogue so kindly posted above:

"On Earth... 200 years ago... I was a Prince..."

Now, TWOK is set in 2285. Two hundred years before that would be... 2085!

How is that "explicitly" stating that the Eugenic Wars occured in 1996? Call me crazy, but that seems to indicate they took place almost a hundred years later.

Could this mean that *gasp* continuity was changed! This must mean that TWOK is the worst of all Trek films! How can we ever watch this abbomonation again? Fucking Berman and Bennet!

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Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.


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The Mighty Monkey of Mim
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The "200 years" reference was not what I was referring to. I was referring to Khan's line "...the crew of the Botany Bay, lost in space from the year 1996..." or something very close to that.

I was just wondering about the 2285 date for TWOK. Is that from Okuda or is it from some other source. I know that Okuda's dates are all offf by a little because he didn't include the Animated series in the Chronology.

In reference to the Eugenics Wars, perhaps they were just that: WARS. Not one war, but an extended period of several wars. Just because Khan left in '96 doesn't necessarily mean that other genetic criminals weren't still around that took longer to deal with. And I still say that they were probably mostly in the Eastern Hemisphere.

About the model in RR's lab, it WAS the Botany Bay. The model was constructed for the Chronology by Greg jein or somebody. It was probably labeled by okuda as well.

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The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.


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The Mighty Monkey of Mim
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What did that one TAS episode say about the Eugenics Wars? You know, the one with that crazed doctor...

...Masao will know, probably.

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The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.


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PsyLiam
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It's from Okuda. TWOK does take place in the 23rd century, according to the onscreen caption.

The arguement is about continuity being changed. It is logical to assume we mean Okuda's continuity. If we start throwing in FASA and everything else, then NOTHING will make sense.

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Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.


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PsyLiam
Hungry for you
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Regardless, we have two lines in TWOK that contradict each other. 1996, and "two hundred years ago". There are only a couple of explanations:

a/ 1996 is wrong
b/ two hundred years ago is wrong
c/ Kahn's an idiot, and thinks that he's actually in the year 2196.

Personally, if they redo TWOK like they are redoing TMP, I'd delete the 1996 line. But then I'd be eaten alive by angry continuity freaks, so it's a good thing I'm not in charge of that project.

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Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.


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The Mighty Monkey of Mim
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Right. Because 1996 is correct.

Has anyone thought of the fact that Khan is a stark-raving-mad psychopath, and may not always be right ont he dot with his dates? We have more evidience for 1996 than anything else. Khan pobably just lost track of time while marooned for all those years, or he was going by the inaccurate figures that Kirk gave him in "Space Seed," or something on that order. But the E.W. definitely WERE going on in 1996. That doesn't mean they started in 1996, that doesn't necessarily mean they ended in 1996, but they were going on at that time, and that is when Khan and co. left earth with the Botany Bay.

And for God's sake don't bring FASA into this!

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]



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The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.

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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Has anyone thought of the fact that Khan is a stark-raving-mad psychopath

Megalomaniac? Yes. Machivelian? Probably. Stark-raving-mad psychopath? No.

I still say time-travel explains everything. I think I'm going to get out my videos and get the EXACT QUOTES for what we're arguing about.

Oh, here's a theory: 1996 isn't 1996 by our calendar. Perhaps Kahn, during his reign, rewired the calendar so that it started in a different year than the Gregorian calendar, and decreed that anyone who even mentioned another calendar was to be beheaded. Spock, knowing this, stated that the Eugenics Wars took place between '92 and '96 because he knew Kahn would fly into a homicidal rage and kill everyone in the room if he did otherwise.

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Omega ]



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"This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
- God, "God, the Devil and Bob"

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Ryan McReynolds
Minor Deity
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quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
I still like my theory about Kahn trying to slingshot around the sun whenever the Eugenics Wars were, ending up time-warping to 1996, and then leaving for the depths of space. It's the only theory I've seen proposed that seems to fit all the facts.

It fits all the facts except one: according to Spock, the last DY-100 was launched in the mid-1990s... and when the decade came up, people immediately thought of the Eugenics Wars.

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Enterprise: An Online Companion

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PsyLiam
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But if the 1996 line was deleted from TWOK (and Space Seed), then it would no longer be cannon.

Ha ha!

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Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Huh...

Perhaps, during TOS, the Federation was experimenting with a different calendar. There were no references to year numbers at any time that I recall except during ST2, with the reference to a bottle of wine. Supposedly, 2283 was an old vintage, though according to the Chronology, that movie took place in 2286 or so. Maybe we adopted the Vulcan calendar or something. Surak supposedly was born around the time of Christ, wasn't he? Remember, Kirk told Gillian Taylor that BY HER CALENDAR he was from the late 23rd century. Implies that they were using a different one. Of course, we have to wonder when exactly they were using which calendar. Are we even sure that they switched back to ours by TNG? It seems so, but I'm not sure.

All the lines that I can find in "Space Seed" relating to the date, and a few other bits of interest:
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Spock: The last such vessel was built centuries ago, back in the 1990's.
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Spock: Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid 1990's was the era of your last so-called World War.

McCoy: The Eugenics Wars.

Spock: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
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Kirk: Oh, I'll need somebody familiar with the late twentieth-century Earth...
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Scotty: Definitely Earth-type 20th century vessel. Old-type Atomic power. Bulky solid... I think they used to call them transistor units.
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McGivers: Captain, It's a sleeper ship.

Kirk: Suspended animation

McGivers: Uh-huh. I've seen old photographs of this. Necessary because of the time involved in space-travel until about 2018. It took years just to travel from one planet to another.

Kirk: Is it possible they're still alive after centuries of travel?
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Scotty: ...they're all mixed types: Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental.
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Kahn: How... long?

Kirk: How long have you been sleeping? Two centuries, we estimate.
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Kirk: A group of people dating back to the 1990's. Discovery of some importance, Spock. There are a great many unanswered questions about those years.
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Spock: The DY-100 was designed for simple interplanetary travel only.
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Spock: Whole populations were being bombed out of existence.
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Kahn: English. I though I dreamed hearing it.
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Kahn: I remember a voice. Did I hear it say I had been sleeping for two centuries?

McCoy: That is correct.
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Kirk: Our heading is Starbase 12, a planet in the Gamma 400 star system.
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Kirk: What was the exact date of your liftoff? We know it was sometime in the early 1990's--
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Kirk: Yes, I understand. You have 200 years of catch-up learning to do.
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Kirk: This Kahn is not what I expected of a 20th-century man.
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Spock: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did simultaneously sieze power in over 40 nations.
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Spock: From 1992-1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia to the Middle East.

McCoy: The last of the Tyrants to be overthrown.
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Since we KNOW that a World War occured some time in the mid-21st century, then the last World War could NOT have occured in what we call the late twentieth century. I say the calendar was displaced by fifty or sixty years at some point. I see no other way out of the apparent contradiction, unless we assume that records were more fragmented than even Spock thought.

Is there a real system called Gamma 400? 'Cause then we can figure out just how far Kahn could possibly have gotten, and how fast.

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"This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
- God, "God, the Devil and Bob"


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The Mighty Monkey of Mim
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Hmmn...

I've always theorized that the Eugenics wars were part of WWIII. Since we know that WWIII ended circa 2053, it makes sense that the EWs were maybe just a catalyst that left the world in chaos, and after the supermen were overthrown, the atom bombs began flying which became the main conflict that led up to Cochrane's time, and left it in ruins. Very interesting...

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]



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The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.

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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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OK, modification to my theory. The Federation's experiment with the Vulcan calendar never caught on, similar to the metric system in the US. It was used for official purposes, but not for much else. Thus, since the bottle of ale that McCoy gave Kirk in ST2 had the year 2283 on it, Kirk was joking when he pointed out the year. "Boy, this stuff is so unfermented that it won't even be made for another six decades." Eventually, the Federation just switched back to the calendar everyone was using anyway. Why not? No worry about hurting the Vulcan's feelings.

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"This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!"
- God, "God, the Devil and Bob"

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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I think Spock was simply wrong when he called the Eugenics Wars the last World War. Perhaps McCoy was actually correcting him when he said "the Eugenics Wars".

I also think Kirk just screwed up by saying "two centuries" and "two hundred years". Maybe he was just having a bad day and couldn't think straight, so he kept making the same mistake. And Khan never bothered to ask what the actual year was, so he always kept "two hundred years" in his mind until ST2.

BTW, the thing about the Romulan ale... Kirk reads the label date and looks surprised. McCoy says something to the effect of "Hey, it takes a while for this stuff to ferment.". Obviously, he can't really mean that. Otherwise, ST2 has to be pretty long after 2283, which pushes it out of the twenty-third century. If 2283 hadn't happened yet, what McCoy said wouldn't make sense at all. So, the only option left is that 2283 was in the very recent past, and McCoy was being sarcastic (which is what we would expect from him, anyway). Therefore, the 2285 date makes perfect sense. All it screws up is Khan's/Kirk's "fifteen years" lines, which should really be closer to twenty years. But, if we assume fifteen is a rounded number, anyway, it's okay.


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