posted
First, I enjoyed the first episode. Won't watch more for a while; I'll probably wait until the first half of the season is out, and burn my free trial to binge it.
The show basically filled my expectations. Visually, it's a reboot, but thematically, I think it'll fit right in. I'm okay with the visual reboot because the tech was always a means to an end, not the end itself. I really liked the approach they had for the central conflict: the captain definitely represents the classic Starfleet ideal of pure pacifism, which is a noble thing to strive for. But it seems that one of the main themes is going to be the definition of pacifism. Though it was rarely discussed explicitly, the Klingons always had an underlying disdain for Humans; it's clear in Discovery that part of the conflict arises from the Humans not meeting the Klingons on the latters' terms.
But Sarek's warning to Burnham gets overlooked: he described how the Vulcans just kept shooting at the Klingons until the Klingons respected them, but he also emphasized that that approach likely wouldn't work now. The Federation has already established its reputation with the Klingons, so there's no way the Klingons would immediately stand down in the same way.
It raises some interesting questions. I think that Discovery is trying to address how classic Star Trek ideals can fit into a modern 21st century world, using the Klingons as the catalyst for that story.
I'm interested enough in the show; but I sure won't pay $6 or $10 per month to watch one single show on a second-rate streaming service with no other content that I'm interested in. (I already own every season of Trek on disc; why would I pay to watch it again?) I'll be waiting for the Blu-ray or iTunes release to buy it.
But I can't resist nitpicking!
On the surface, the Klingons being out of touch with the Federation before this episode actually makes some sense. The last we saw of them was the Augment plague; I can easily see a massive civil war and general infighting after something like that. Clearly based on Burnham's back story, the Klingons weren't COMPLETELY isolated like the Romulans, so the occasional battle like Donatu V can be easily explained.
My biggest argument against this sequence of events is actually from The Undiscovered Country: Spock specifically referred to "seventy years of unremitting hostility." That doesn't match either Enterprise's backstory OR Discovery's, now.
I also agree with Zipacna on cloaking technology: Enterprise ruined that argument long ago.
The holograms feel out of place. But hey, we had viewscreens for internship communication with the speaker looking at a nonexistent camera in the middle of the bridge—think of Uhura on the bridge, calling Kirk in the briefing room, appearing on the center triangular viewscreen with her console showing behind her. If Kirk's Enterprise could have nonexistent cameras, why can't Discovery have holograms?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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posted
You don't have to subscribe to the shitty CBS service if you look elsewhere. That's what I'm doing.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Zipacna: - Michael basically attempting mutiny against her CO doesn't exactly bother me. I wanted to punch that captain in the face as well, considering she clearly had no idea how to deal with Klingons.
I had no problem with that as well. That was her Vulcan upbringing kicking in. She did what she thought was the logical thing to do. In "The Menagerie", Spock also physically attacked a fellow officer, kidnapped the Enterprise and disobeyed one of Starfleet's General Orders.
quote:One thing I am curious about is Voq (the albino Klingon). I can't help but wonder if he's supposed to be The Albino from DS9.
Not sure, Voq is following some misguided concept of honour, while The Albino was basically a thug.
IIRC the battle of Donatu V was mentioned by T'Kuvma.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
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1. At issue is the early Klingon possession of cloaks.
2. A limited-numeric Klingon house structure makes no sense. The houses of Mogh, Duras, especially Martok the commoner, his wife's family, et cetera all point to a rather more open, nebulous structure, akin to Earth houses, with "new money" folks available.
3. Having a Klingon individual change from TMP to TOS style is minor compared to the ”Threshold"-level realism that would be needed to imagine the STD Klingons making such a change. The long skulls alone would make that silly.
4. The assault and mutiny may not bother you, butbsuffice it to say that is not how the chain of command works. Mike scarcely bothered to try to further convince the captain of the logic of her plan, save for her smarmy "my ideas are l33t, don't challenge me" nonsense.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
I took it as 24 great houses at the moment and dozens of minor houses.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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"Seems like so many people are crafting some sinister conspiracy behind the scenes, where Kurtzman is waiting to leap out and yell 'I fooled you all, this was JJTrek all along!'"
I don't think it's consistent with the Abrams timeline, either. Like I said, there were cloaks in ENT (which is set before the timelines split), and suddenly the crew of the Shenzhou are confused that such a thing exists. I also don't think the producers are trying to play a trick on the audience. I think they just want to say that it's the original timeline, but don't want to bother putting any effort into making it consistent with that claim at all.
"...the redesign of the Klingons is no more problematic than their redesign for The Motion Picture was."
I don't really agree with that. When the Klingons were redesigned for TMP, they'd only looked like they did for three seasons, and the change was because makeup techniques were available that hadn't been before. But now we have a Klingon look that's been established for almost 40 years across ten films and 25 seasons of television. At this point, changing them up again so drastically just... because... is simply one more thing on the pile of things making this not feel like Star Trek to me.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Hey! It's 2017, there's a new TV show, let's fire up the old forum accounts.
So, Discovery.. I'll just do random bullet points, since I can't really make coherent sense of this yet:
* Overall, the story was decent enough to keep me hooked. It's basically as far removed from the old TV shows as TNG was from TOS, so I guess I'll just have to accept this as building on modern canon.
* But, nitpicks!
* By far the biggest issue with continuity are the Klingons. I kept expecting regular Klingons to show up among the other houses, or at least neo-Klingons in something resembling TOS costumes, and maybe with more Augment-affected ridges. But none of that, all Klingons are now monstrous aliens not resembling any others seen.
* The Starfleet vessels were kind of era-nonspecific Eaves designs (they could have been ENT era or 26th century and look the same). Perfectly reasonable, if a bit safe. THe interiors were a reasonable mix of ENT and Kelvin, which I suppose counts as proper canon.
* I can't imagine how "The Cage" fits into this, so I guess it doesn't? But via "The Menagerie", all of this is pretty canon.
* A huge 23rd century spacecraft is not as good as observing things as a telescope. I don't know how that makes sense in any way.
* Window blinds, like seatbelts and surge protectors, were never invented.
* Courtroom lighting is prone to budget cuts, leading to dramatic scenes.
* I did love the "busy" bridge, with many people milling around and a lot of background chatter and a TOS-y soundscape. It felt like a real mission control room.
* I get why it was necessary for this story, but it's kind of weird sending out a senior officer in a space suit. At least that fits other Trek where drones or other remote operation is rare.
Registered: Dec 1999
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1. Why is that an issue though? The ship we saw cloaking was T'Kumva's - a man who is implied to be an outsider up until this point. It's too early to say if the cloaking technology is standard use in the Klingon fleet or if it's unique to T'Kumva's ship. But if it is in standard use then all we really know is that cloaking technology was "new" to the Klingons when Kor was commanding the Klothos (assuming his story about taking it apart from DS9 wasn't a drunken ramble). Nothing from Discovery so far contradicts what little we've been told about Klingons and cloaking technology over the past 51 years.
2. Granted by the 2360s it's implied that there are a greater number of Klingon houses...but that's a century after this episode is set. The implication I got from these two episodes was that there were 24 houses with seats on the High Council, and that there were minor houses with no power. We've also been told directly in TNG that the House of Mogh was granted a seat on the High Council by Gowron, so the precedent in canon for the number of houses with power being added too has been established long ago. That there are minor houses at this time with no power could also work with Kor's view of Martok as a commoner...if the concept of minor houses now gaining power is something that developed in the century between Discovery and TNG, I could easily see the more traditional aspects of society railing against change.
3. There we'll have to disagree, because I don't view human-looking Klingons changing into bumpy-headed Klingons as being more "minor" than bumpy-headed Klingons with hair turning into bumpy-headed Klingons with no hair & more nostrils. Don't get me wrong...I'd have been happier if they hadn't redesigned the Klingons, but they have. And honestly it's less hard to believe that the Klingons changing than, for example, the Trill changing from a species with cranial plates to species with spots just because Terry Farrell looked better with spots.
4. I can't really address this without spoilers for the second episode, but the insubordination wasn't without consequences...and did result in her CO pointing a phaser at her head!
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
First, my compliments. Most of the pro-Discovery folks I have dealt with on Twitter and some other forums have been self-professed trolls or just unwilling to even discuss the fact that changes occurred. You're thus the first actual STD apologist I have encountered.
quote:Originally posted by Zipacna: It's too early to say if the cloaking technology is standard use in the Klingon fleet or if it's unique to T'Kumva's ship.
T'K might be having his strings pulled by Romulans, then. That'd be original.
Not having cloaks would be worse, in that not only would T'K be all like "hey guys, let's have a war except I haven't given you this tactically significant edge stuff yet" but also that others go along with it. And in any case, as much as ENT broke the cloaking timeline, that's no excuse.
quote: Nothing from Discovery so far contradicts what little we've been told about Klingons and cloaking technology over the past 51 years.
On the contrary, it is very contradictory. We know the Klingons didn't have the tech until circa 2270, a fact bracketed by TOS and the launch of the weirdos Voyager encountered. (Indeed, this is basically that group with better tailors.)
quote: Granted by the 2360s it's implied that there are a greater number of Klingon houses...but that's a century after this episode is set.
So there is an ad hoc rationalization available featuring the sudden democratization of the Klingon people insofar as houses, running contrary to Kor and the rules he followed which were in use at the time of Martok.
That doesn't work well.
quote: We've also been told directly in TNG that the House of Mogh was granted a seat on the High Council by Gowron
That helps me, not you. The House of Mogh, like the House of Kor, was of noble descent. Kor was the last of his house, which seems unlikely if houses represented 1/24th of the Klingon population.
quote: There we'll have to disagree, because I don't view human-looking Klingons changing into bumpy-headed Klingons as being more "minor" than bumpy-headed Klingons with hair turning into bumpy-headed Klingons with no hair & more nostrils.
Skull elongation seems a bad plan in reverse. Brains don't like to be smushed.
quote: Trill changing
Yup, that happened. But that was a one-off species in the first appearance. The Klingons are rather better known, and have been consistent but for the Augment event for 1500 years as seen on screen.
quote: the insubordination wasn't without consequences
Even the sentence was nuts and un-Starfleet.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: First, my compliments. Most of the pro-Discovery folks I have dealt with on Twitter and some other forums have been self-professed trolls or just unwilling to even discuss the fact that changes occurred. You're thus the first actual STD apologist I have encountered.
Fairly rubbish fans there then, in my opinion. I'm reminded of the good old days of trying to rationalise the mess that was the last few seasons of Voyager and the first three seasons of Enterprise - just with the Berman/Braga bashing replaced by a new Satan.
quote:T'K might be having his strings pulled by Romulans, then. That'd be original.
Not having cloaks would be worse, in that not only would T'K be all like "hey guys, let's have a war except I haven't given you this tactically significant edge stuff yet" but also that others go along with it. And in any case, as much as ENT broke the cloaking timeline, that's no excuse.
The thing is, though, that it's not exactly like T'Kuvma's in a position to share any tech he's got any more, given the position both he and his ship are left in at the end of the opening two episodes. All of this is, of course, crap if upon their next appearance the Klingons are cloaking left right and centre, but from the opening two episodes as I say I don't recall seeing anyone other than T'Kuvma and the beacon cloak. I'm personally viewing his vessel alone the lines of the Klingon's version of the Scimitar, albeit a much older designed retrofitted with newer tech.
quote:On the contrary, it is very contradictory. We know the Klingons didn't have the tech until circa 2270, a fact bracketed by TOS and the launch of the weirdos Voyager encountered. (Indeed, this is basically that group with better tailors.)
The main question here, then, is when the "Prophecy" Klingons set off on their journey...the episode only says it was about a century prior to the episode. When they launched is potentially significant, as that D7 (or rather the K'Tinga in disguise) in "Prophecy" did have a cloaking device...the episode opens with it decloaking and attacking Voyager. All we can truly say is that it was sometime between 2256 and 2277.
quote:That helps me, not you. The House of Mogh, like the House of Kor, was of noble descent. Kor was the last of his house, which seems unlikely if houses represented 1/24th of the Klingon population.
It illustrates the point, though, that houses can gain more power and influence - as presumably the House of Martok would have done as well, unless you're advocating that Kor would have refused a commission in the military to someone whose family was on the High Council just because he viewed them as common? I view the number of MAJOR houses as akin to the situation in Britain before 1832, where only a handful of people from a select section of society were realistically represented in parliament and only a handful could actually vote...it's slightly different granted, but political reform can happen at a very rapid pace - and certainly as a historian I wouldn't assume that a political structure is the same a century before what I'd already seen, and vice versa.
quote:Skull elongation seems a bad plan in reverse. Brains don't like to be smushed.
Incorporating augmented Human DNA into an alien genome seems like a stupid idea anyway. This is a species that has already shown it will do stupid things with their DNA if they think it will make them stronger. I'd rather not have to rationalise it, but Enterprise gave us a potential answer...ironically without it this would probably be less of a debate.
quote:Even the sentence was nuts and un-Starfleet.
Was it? Tom Paris was demoted and imprisoned for a month for insubordination and disobeying orders...who had also been in prison for an unspecified amount of time for defecting to the Maquis. Kirk was demoted for stealing the Enterprise (and destroying it) and disobeying orders, even though he saved the world and rescued the life of the son of the Vulcan Ambassador (which probably helped him get a reduced sentence). It's not the first time we've seen a Starfleet officer do this sort of thing, and it's not the first time we've seen that same officer punished in this kind of way. Given that she is directly responsible, as well, for T'Kuvma's fate, a life sentence seems like a more civilised version of agreeing to the Klingons sending Kirk & McCoy to Rura Penthe 40 years later.
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"...if houses represented 1/24th of the Klingon population."
I don't have an argument one way or the other about the Klingon house question, but I feel like I should point out that this is not how math works. "24 houses" does not mean "1/24 of the population" any more than "2 houses" would mean "1/2 of the population".
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quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: Not having cloaks would be worse, in that not only would T'K be all like "hey guys, let's have a war except I haven't given you this tactically significant edge stuff yet" but also that others go along with it. And in any case, as much as ENT broke the cloaking timeline, that's no excuse,
I'm currently re-watching the first few episodes, and apologies for the minor spoiler...but there's a line in the second episode between the albino Klingon and the High Council holograms about how "he [T'kuvma] has even devised a way to hide it [his ship] behind a cloak of invisibility". I think the implication there has got to be that the High Council doesn't have this technology, otherwise it would be the height of stupidity to give that as a reason to follow him.
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1. The Prophecy Klingons did not launch until after TOS because the Klingons had no cloaking then. Saying "all we can say is" in this context is ignoring what always established for what is desired.
2. If I invent a personal shield and try to entice others to join me in combat against some foe by showing it off, doesn't it stand to reason that all my potential allies would want one before the combat starts and not after? It's just very silly writing.
3. The imagined cultural revolution vis-a-vis Klingon houses is an ad hoc rationalization for an unnecessary reboot of Klingon society.
4. While there could be Klingons of no house, it seems clear that 1/24th is the idea, whether in direct membership or effective control. They're uniting the Empire, not a social club.
5. Incarceration for a lifetime has no precedent in Starfleet's own jurisprudence. Even if Burnham was directly responsible for the war as opposed to disobeying and assaulting a senior officer (which is not mutiny as only one person was involved), court martial and cashiering out of the service would be in keeping with what we've seen elsewhere.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: Plenty of things to nitpick? Sure. But so help me, I enjoyed the first episode.
So the premise seems to be that we've got this Klingon religious fanatic who wants to unite the Empire against the Federation. Cool, I guess. We'll see where this goes.
And yes, we have ridged Klingons. Specifically, ridged bald Klingons that look more like the Kelvin timeline variety than anything else. I'm willing to give this a pass for the time being, since we don't have specifics on how far the Augment virus spread or when the Klingons started applying a cure to said virus. Would be nice to see TOS Klingons at some point, though, just for the acknowledgement.
Whether intentional or not, we might have a few vague references to Enterprise. The Federation is mentioned to have barely encountered the Klingons for a century, which would match up to Archer's encounters with them. And we get some elaboration on Vulcan's diplomatic relations with Qo'noS, in that the Vulcans decided to simply fire on any Klingon ship they came across until the Klingons were ready to bargain. That does sound like something Vulcans from that era would do.
Okay, so assuming these Vulcan learning pods are the same sort of adapting programs Spock used in The Voyage Home, you'd think they wouldn't ask a traumatized little girl a bunch of increasingly insensitive questions about the brutal attack that killed her family.
Sarek mentions that there is a "new star in the sky". How? Light from the beacon would take years to reach anywhere!
Holographic communication? Wasn't this established as experimental tech in Deep Space Nine?
Good acting from everyone, especially Doug Jones. He does not get enough praise for his roles.
Oh, and love the opening credits. Star Trek by way of da Vinci. And at the very least, the theme music isn't a pop song cover this time around.
The problem with this show isn't that there are a few leaps of logic here and there. It's that it's constant and that there isn't anything left to fall back on that's any good (except for the production value and the "dark atmosphere" which makes it seem "deep"--whoop dee doo). We might accept it if the characters were good and interesting or even just likable...but they're not...or if something were still otherwise in keeping with Star Trek canon...but it's not...or if there was some kind of internal logic linking their actions together...but there's none. I could see various minor captains doing questionable ethical things, but ALL OF STARFLEET being on the search for these creatures to use like some horse in a field being whipped to death so it can do some work for them? Without even doing enough research to determine if it's sentient or not? Are you kidding? I haven't gotten the impression the Federation is quite at that point of desperation at this point in the war.
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