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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » Starships & Technology » In defense of sector 001, the Sol system (Page 1)

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Author Topic: In defense of sector 001, the Sol system
David Templar
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Anyone care to speculate on just how and with what the Sol system is defended? We know of the Mars Defense Perimeter, but that can't be just it, the coverage is too small and from what we've seen the performance isn't that great either. They mentioned planetary defenses in "Paradise Lost", but didn't go into great details on that (there was certainly nothing shown attacking the Borg cube in Earth orbit in "BoBW"). There should be a Spacedock in orbit, too, but no one is positive on how well those things are armed (SFB aside).

Starfleet was only able to rally 40 ships during the first Borg incursion as a final defense line, and basically no organized defense effort from the point the Borg cube entered Federation space to when it reached Wolf 359 (mind you that could be attributed to spetacularly stupid fleet deployment). The number of ships in system seems to be rather small, despite it being the biggest collection of Starfleet orbital facilities besides maybe Antares. You only had a single ship chasing after Harry in that alternate reality eps of VOY, I think Quark ran into a Nebula in orbit of Earth in "Little Green Man", and while the Lakota and the Defiant was busy creaming eachother, no other ships can along to say "hey, what the heck are you guys doing?"

Then there's the Breen attack on Starfleet HQ. Wyomn (sp?) or Damar kept saying how it's a pitty they lost so many ships, making it sound like they lost a lot of ships. So Starfleet must have mustered up a significant force to defend Earth, but still letting enough Breen ships getting past to crack the defenses around Starfleet HQ. However we're not quite sure just how many Breen ships there were, and how far they got into Federation space before they were detected and engaged.

I think I'm confusing myself here.

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."


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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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I would guess Earth was rather poorly defended up until TBoBW. After the Borg cube made it all the way there, I'm sure that scared the shit out of everyone. They would have increased the defenses at that point. Also, the defenses would have been increased more during wartime, and even more after Betazed was taken (as mentioned, it put the Dominion within striking distance of Earth). Thus, the reason the Breen attack was defended against fairly well (if not totally effectively...).

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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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I keep a stout branch of oak beside my nightstand.

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OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.


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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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Wasn't that the subject of a King Missile song?

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"I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth


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Malnurtured Snay
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I can just imagine the NRA leading a rally in San Francisco as the Breen ships fly overhead.

"Okay ... ready ... aim ... FIRE!"

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.



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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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And the thing beside Sol's nightstand is his bed. Now at last he confirms the rumours himself!8)

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"It strikes me that there are enough episodes of the Simpsons that people could speak entirely in Simpsonese, using references from the show to explain or describe an endless series of situations. Nelson and Apu . . . at Tinagra.

But now I�ve brought Star Trek into it again, haven�t I. Sorry."

- James Lileks, 09/04/2001


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PsyLiam
Hungry for you
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Yes! We have cleverly trapped him, using our cunning plan that we thought up, and got David to do, using telepathy and drugs!

We (I) rulez! Dude.

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park


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Timo
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I don't even attempt to sound funny today... I'll just argue with a droning voice that I don't think Earth was ever very poorly defended.

When we saw invasions of Earth, the parties responsible were superpowerful. V'Ger was said to have shut down Earth's planetary defence systems, so we never got to see what those systems were. The Whale Probe did the same. The Borg silenced a Jupiter Outpost with a high double-digit number, so perhaps there were a hundred or more such outposts to be silenced; it blasted apart three defence vessels, so perhaps there were dozens to be blasted. Most of the Borg blasting was done off screen, and when the Enterprise arrived, it is possible that significant amounts of defence hardware had already been destroyed (although we didn't see the flotsam when we zoomed in on the Cube in orbit - perhaps it had burned up in the atmosphere already, in the vicinity of the volume we saw?).

When the Lakota fought the Defiant, there was no clear indication that this was anywhere near Earth. In fact, Leyton would probably have wanted to stop the intruder as far away from Earth as possible, and since the Defiant wasn't running under cloak (treaty forbidding, plus high warp and cloaks don't mix), a distant intercept was relatively simple to set up.

As for what Earth could have in its protection, I just learned that "Whom Gods Destroy" dialogue confirms the existence of planet-covering shields (thanks, Graham!). So that's one "must" item. Then perhaps orbital weapon platforms (the things we see blinking out on the tactical display in TMP when V'Ger makes its move), armed with phasers and torpedoes. Probably swarms of very small local defence ships, but these wouldn't be deployed in battles where they wouldn't make any difference (for example, sending a "Peregrine" interceptor against a Borg Cube, even in swarms, would be futile).

Surface-mounted torpedo launchers seem possible as well (perhaps these would be considered "missile" launchers in this case), as do surface-mounted high-power beam weapons. We already know there are stockpiles of infantry weapons to counter an invasion ("Homefront"); there might be heavier surface-fighting gear as well, and local shields, and possibly transporter-based weapons using the hardwired, unjammable commercial transporter nets that probably cover the planet.

Starships might not be available in great numbers in low orbit - more probably, these would mostly flock around Mars (and in the Whale Probe attack be paralyzed there, in the Borg one be already sent to Wolf 359 - only in TMP was it explicitly stated that there were no other starships present in the Sol system). There might even be a treaty prohibiting Starfleet from deploying starship permanently near Earth, like a Roman general was forbidden from taking his legions to Rome proper...

Also, I suspect this "Mars defence perimeter" was only intended to protect Mars, not the system in general. The Cube simply took a scenic route, visiting ALL the outer military installations in the system (Jupiter was mentioned, Saturn and Mars were shown) and blasting to bits their local defence perimeters before proceeding to Earth. That way, the Cube could protect its rear during the actual assimilation process, by preemptively eliminating even the futilest pieces of resistance remaining in the system.

Timo Saloniemi


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AndrewR
Resident Nut-cache
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Actually, I don't think Earth, itself is too terribly defended - i.e. orbital platform weapons etc. etc. etc.

1. As mentioned there hadn't been much penetrating the Feds all the way to Earth for a long time until the Borg.

2. As the whole 'story' behind Homefront/Paradise Lost attests too, Earth is a Paradise, but what sort of a paradise is it when you have armed guards roaming the streets. I feel this might apply to the defence of the planet too... Earth wouldn't be Earth, if it were some heavily fortified installation. I assume this would be the same for other 'core worlds'.

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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!


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Gaseous Anomaly
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I can't imagine there being any ground-based weapons installations on Earth - just doesn't fit into the trek ideology (alledged paradise).

Orbiting Weapons platforms make the most sense.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"


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Starship Freak
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I agree on the idea of not having surface weapons-installations on inhabited planets. But my reason is rather based on something else then star trek ideology. In case of an attack, these weapons will be targeted, with potentially devastating results. It makes much more sense to have orbital fortresses. The only instance surface installations make sense is on uninhabited worlds, such as moons or asteroids.

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"


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Gaseous Anomaly
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Hmm.

Phaser batteries and torpedo launching arrays on orbit - around the Moon as well, seeing as it's a colony.

Ditto for Mars (colony and Utopia Planetia).

"Mars Defense Perimeter" = last line of defense. Villains cross it? Shit thyself.

I'd like to think that all the large moons in the solar system would have some military capabilities, but what's the point?

I mean, unless they've long-range assault launching capabilites (which I'd say Utopia is the only one remotely able to pull it off - manpower, starship support, etc), they're of no use to anyone.

Say someone attacks Earth - the only way places like Io or Callisto would be able to make a difference would be
a) they had assault launching capabilities

b) the attacking ships "island-hopped" from one planet to the next, pushing back the Fed defensive line

c) all the planetoids with guns were aligned just so that they coincided perfectly with the attackers route (cha-ha).

d) they had missile-launcher arrays that could be plunged into large (invasion-sized) fleets - missiles would be too slow to be used effectively against small numbers of ships - a few decent yield M/AM explosions within a fleet would decimate a small one, or demoralize a large one.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"


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Treknophyle
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Therefore, the best defense system has to be:
- self-propelled
- self-navigating

ie: Starships. Maybe the Sabre-class ships are from the defense fleet (Sol Station). Since they are small (around the size of the Defiant?) - it would seem to make sense.

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Faster than light - no left or right.


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Gaseous Anomaly
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The best defense system, Phyle, yes.

But I'd consider these planetoid arrays/platforms as being absolutely last-resort things, to be used when interception had failed to the point of disaster.

Look at it this way:


  • The Romulan and Cardassian fleet in 'The Die Is cast' couldn't have numbered more than 15 ships, could it (going by the pics of the ships, and the number of "blasts" that hit the Founders planet)? They destroyed 30% of the planets crust in one volley!! OK, the ships were powerful (D'Deridex and Galors), but they attacked from a fairly close range, IMO).

  • The Breen ships in 'The Changing Face of Evil' could have done the same amount of damage, but were obviously intercepted (after decloaking, IMO) very quickly by STARSHIPS. Look at what they did - wrecked StarFleet Heaadquaters in San Fransisco. Not the city. Not the borough. The HEADQUARTERS.

I reckon that the only reason that the Romulans/Cardassians were able to hammer the planet so quickly was because they were unopposed during the initial attack (quickly rectified ).

Now the Breen either
1. Decloaked, got a few shots in, and were decimated, or
2. (no cloaks) Warped in from various vectors, dropped to impulse somewhere, were intercepted but some got through to straffe ST Headquarters once or twice before getting atomized.
More I think of it, the less likely 2. seems - they had to have had cloaks.

Blast - all this had a point.

oh yeah - Starships alone are insufficient for a determined enemy.
Too many enemy ships vs. not having enough => supplement them with unmanned platforms etc etc.

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"


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TheF0rce
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the cardassian orbital weapon installations were pretty effective in repelling an assualt---except for that power transfer design flaw which i think can;t be helped...
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