quote: 1) The Admiral in "Dr. Bashir, I Presume" gave a time of "200 years ago" for the Eugenics wars, which would have put it in the 22nd century, not the 20th.
True, but in STII Khan hmself said the Botany Bay had been lost in space since 1996. Since Kirk told him he'd been asleep for two centuries, well.... we've gone around and around on this point in other topics, so let's not go there.
quote: 2) "Future's End" which took place in the 90's showed no evidence that the Eugenics Wars were going on, or had recently gone on.
Yes, but then again, how much battle damage did we see in the US during World War II? Just because there were various wars going on across the world doesn't necessarily mean we would see smoking rubble in the streets of L.A.
Also, Scotty very definitely commented on the low-tech of the ships (bulky, solid units... I think they called them transistors). I don't think the ship could have been that from too much farther in the future with technology like that. (Yes, I know we saw a similar ship as an automated freighter, but the dialogue said it had been refitted.)
Finally, the Eugenics Wars had to have been a group of smaller conflicts rather than one huge, global battle. If they were one massive war, why didn't the historians call it World War III? Thanks to FC, we know that took place in 2053.
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posted
This is definately an issue of continuity. I believe that Spock said in Space Seed that "These supermen took control simeltaneously in over 40 countries." I believe that Spock also said that "The Eugenucs wars were the last of Earth's world wars." But if this is true, then why in ST:FC did Data say: " According to the radioactive isotopes in Earth's atmosphere, we have arrived approximately 10 years after Earth's third world war." This totally contradicts Spock's statement! And we do no that the Eugenics Wars happened in the late 20th century, because in ST:TWOK, Capt. Terrell asks, "Checkov, who is this man?" "He is a product of late 20th century genetic engineering."
-------------------- Fry- How will we get out of this? George Takei's head- Maybe we can use some kind of auto-destruct code like one-A, two-B, three-C... (Bender's head blows up) Bender- Now everybody knows! -Futurama's obligatory Star Trek episode
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posted
Since there already exist contradictions in the data, something will have to be ignored somewhere, and something else invented in its place. There have been many good suggestions. Here's mine:
Let's say Khan was indeed engineered in the late 20th century (that is, after 1950). Let's also say he and 39 others took over a big part of the world in 1992, and were defeated in 1996. And then let's say that the war did not end there and then. Only Khan made his escape, while others continued fighting over various aspects of the "eugenics" issue. Perhaps some of the other supermen continued the fight. Perhaps those who had defeated them did. In any case, this made the "Eugenics wars" into a plural, a vicious circle of regional conflicts that only ended when a "real" World War III came around and perhaps finally killed those still intent on fighting the eugenics fight.
Janeway would have entered LA during a pause between the first and second "Eugenics wars", just after Khan's assumed death and later-revealed escape. Sisko and pals in "Past Tense" could have visited Earth during or between later wars in the series - we heard a little more about what happened aboard, at least in France, but not everything that was going on.
That creates the lowest number of canon violations IMHO. It also prolongs the wars enough to make Kirk a bit confused. Of course, it makes Spock look a bit silly when the data he gives is so misleading as to the true length of the wars.
posted
There was also Colonel Green's genocidal war sometime in the 21st Century as well. I still think the Eugenics Wars are a series of neaarly simultaneous conflicts across the globe in the 1990s, whereas WWIII was one big shooting gallery decades later.
BTW, I don't think Spock was much of an expert on Earth's wars anyway; he botched the casualty figures for both World War I and II (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on WWIII).
-------------------- The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
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posted
The biggest problem is that Star Trek survived to the 90s.
People dont read '1984' and say 'hey, that didnt happen!' They understand that it was written as speculative fiction, as a product of the thoughts of the time period it was written
The best view of World War III was probably from the novel 'Federation' It involved military figures from dozens of governments siezing power, betraying thir homelands or generall doing bad things. It wasnt a war fought between specific nations, it was a series of civil wars caused by political, economic and societal unrest. The Optimum movement was led by Col. Thorsen, who had in his cadre Col. Green. They wanted to kill off 'surplus populations' those who werent elite or ideal humans. The only problem with all this is that it followed Next Generation history and lasted until 2079, the 'post atomic horror'.. and picked up on the thread of the 52 starred US Flag being in use until 2079, when the secessions happened.. at some point the phrase of 'the eighteen remaining United States' was used. chilling.
And First Contact actually went ahead and contradicted a lot of things about WWIII that had already been established in TOS and TNG, but DS9 and VGR didnt care for those views and just tried to show single stories of Earths past
[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
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I'm saying, that two correct the continuity errors, we might say that we're seeing to different timelines here. The Khan backstory as presented in TOS puts the Eugenics Wars in the late 20th century. However, because of the change in the timeline caused by Starling's meddling...it's possible that in the newer series, we see a revised timeline in which the Eugenics Wars got pushed back a bit.
The politics of the U.S. in DS9's "Past Tense" didn't seem to be immediately post-superhuman-takeover either...so I don't really have a problem with saying the EW's rook place later.
capped
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posted
Another point that can be made is that the Eugenics Wars and World War III were not fought traditionally, between nations. This is obvious by looking at the fact that the United States has been assaulted yesterday and i am still here in school and have to go to work soon, business as usual. If Khan and his supermen were acting within governments, causing civil wars and terrorism, it might not have affected the US so much by the era of Future Tense. There are always lots of wars being fought all over the world, probably L.A. just wasnt that concerned at the time. And the reports of government problems heard in Past Tense might have been exactly the unrest caused by leery populations wondering where the next threat would come from
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