Topic: The Federation is 10,000 light years across?
MIB
Ex-Member
posted
How does the Federation even function? Even at maximum cruising speeds, the fastest ship the Feds have would take years to cross it. Unless Picard meant 10,000 CUBIC light years. It would make more sense because a sapce-faring empire would span in 3 dimensions instead of 2 like on planet based empires. If this is the case, than the Federation could actually be quite tiny! Either way, I have a hard time beleiving that the Federation spans across 10% of the entire galaxy!
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posted
Firstly Picard's exact line, IIRC, was "...spread across 8000 light years." That seems to be a strike against the cubic theory.
The answer that allows me to sleep at night is that the warp factor-to-light-years-travelled conversion scale is really about as comprehendible as the TOS stardate system or Saavik's ability to mysteriously shape-shift between Star Trek II and III.
Yes, the Federation is 8000 years across. And yes, you can fly from one side to the other in a year. Yes, Deep Space Nine is on its "edge," but yes, it's a 13 day trip or less on the Defiant if you travel from Earth to Ferenginar to there.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
posted
Or then the Feds sent out a long-distance subspace spam with the subject line "Join the UFP, Get Moneyless Economy and Holodecks and Replicator Technology", and some poor sucker 8,000 ly distant took the bait. And now the Feds begin all their diplomatic meetings with "We have holdings across 8,000 lightyears, nyah nyah!", even if the actual starship-patrolled volume is only a couple of hundred lightyears across.
posted
Even though that is a bit tongue in cheek, I think he's got a point about the whole spread issue. It could have a large center and various groups of outlying colonies which make up the 8000 ly.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
That's how it works with some countries anyway. You've got a fairly high population density around London, while the further up north you go, the less people and the more goats there are.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Although personally, I also prefer to go with the idea that Okuda was smoking crack when he was calculating the warp speed scale, and all ships are about 10 times as fast as he says.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Although personally, I also prefer to go with the idea that Okuda was smoking crack when he was calculating the warp speed scale, and all ships are about 10 times as fast as he says.
...and within seven seasons Voyager would have reached the Alpha Quadrant with nominal speed?
Warp speeds are a plot device! They've always been a plot device! Warp is a way to explain why ships can pass enormous spans of distance in the course of one episode. It's not supposed to become the seat of a scientific debate, it's meant to escape one by not using relativistic speeds.
This is one of those 'suspension of disbelief' issues.
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Bernd: ...and within seven seasons Voyager would have reached the Alpha Quadrant with nominal speed?
For what it's worth, logistics could explain the expansion of a 7 year trip into a 70 year trip. The ship can't continuously operate warp drive for 7 years; it's got to refuel, restrock, repair, and so on. We've never seen long-term warp drive before. Maybe travelling at 10000 c works for a month or so, but any more and you blow out your warp coils... so Voyager had to maintain a slower average speed if she wanted to keep moving.
Not that I actually believe any of that. The old warp-variable idea works best for me, especially with the corrolary that they're only useful after you've mapped them. Federation ships can follow well-known routes and cross 8000 light-years in a few weeks, while Voyager just plows ahead and takes a year.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
If the warp scale is faster than Okuda thought it was, another good explanation for Voyagers long travel time would be that they werent always going in a straight line.. the distance increases dramatically if you make their course a zig-zag between hostile territories (common plot cliche: itll add a year to their journey if they go around the x-aliens space), hostile nebulae, and im assuming they would be avoiding the galactic core. Depending on how intense they consider the core to be in the Trek universes 'science' they might have had to look at their course being a curve for quite a ways.
Registered: Sep 2001
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OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
Member # 621
posted
Well, God's at the center of the galaxy. And that big energy barrier thing.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
Registered: Jun 2001
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
Another Question.. it wasnt revealed how long they were flying in 'Final Frontier', but the galactic center-point is probably 25,000 LY from Earth (where they started). Even if the 1701-A could go as fast as Voyager (which it couldnt) that would be a 20-year trip.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
What happened to the subspace highway theory?
The TNG TM warp scale specifically states that the values are approximate for average conditions. If you're in a really good area for subspace travel, Warp 2 might actually be 15c instead of 10c [Warp 2 being the point at which in an average area you are outputing energy which gets you to the speed of 10c, but at this point in space that energy level gets 15c]. In other areas, Warp 2 might be 5c--- meaning just the opposite of the above the standard power output gets you 5c instead of 10c.
At the same time, what about wormholes? Isn't the Federation big enough to have some wormholes in it, if not like the Bajoran Wormhole, then temporary ones that allow some ships to cross great distances.
There are other phenomena as well... but the way I see it, there isn't much to bend in this area. What drives me crazy is Voyager's path home. The Bajoran Wormhole was MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH closer, maybe only 1/3 the distance they traveled in the entire series [let's not talk about the distance to destination]. Plain stupidity. After that, what happened to the Cytherians? The Federation has/had diplomatic relations with them before... why did Voyager ignore them completely and plot a course straight for Earth?
No wonder I had such a big problem with Voyager, the entire plot of the show was wrong. They brought their prediciment upon themselves. They would have spent 15, maybe only 10 years traveling to the Bajoran Wormhole [and for those that are worried about the Dominion, Voyager would not have been within that area until after the war ended].
Later, J
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
I like the 'subspace highway' theory.. i also like the 'Okuda was wrong theory'
But the 'Voyager should have gone to the Gamma Quadrant theory'? Bullshit.
The Bajoran wormhole collapsed a bunch of times during DS9.. it was threatened by collapse a bunch more times. The crew of Voyager knew this. Voyager left Deep Space Nine shortly after 'The Search' so they knew that there was a powerful Dominion on the other side, and that it was possible to collapse the wormhole as a failsafe to full scale war, as they tried to do in 'By Inferno's Light.' They knew the Odyssey had been destroyed, they knew that Sisko had gone ahead and destroyed the wormhole in the Vorta mind-simulation, and they knew that the Prophets had closed the wormhole in a fit of pique when it was first discovered. Heading for such an unstable place would have been such a silly idea. Add to that the fact that if things had only gone slightly differently after the wormhole was closed for quite a while at the beginning of the war, and Voyager would have been stuck in the middle of the Dominion with no wormhole, or later, a wormhole with a huge self-replicating minefield on the other side.
And you say the war would have been over by the time they got there? How were they supposed to know that? Order DS9 eps on videocassette from Sci-Fi Bookclub?
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
posted
Let me just remind you folks that it only takes four days to get to Qronos at warp five, and the Romulans wages war and intruded into the neutral zone on impulse drive alone.
-------------------- "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
Registered: Apr 2001
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