posted
I love how the whole Genetically Engineered Bashir - just fits so nicely into his back story... i.e. the preganglionic neuron and a postganglionic fibre etc.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
One thing I do remember is that according to the dates the real Bashir operated on Sisko in "Rapture." The only explanation for his old-style uniform I can come up with is that they'd planned in advance, had provided some clothes for him (since they were abducting him in his pyjamas) and having his uniform size just used that. When the uniform style was suddenly changed, why should the Dominion bother changing it?
capped
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posted
Thats some messed up reasoning though. It ruins the whole shock value element the producers were using. By seeing the old clothes, your mind jumped through hoops trying to grasp the idea youve been watching an impostor for the past month of episodes. Exactly the kind of paranoid/fear shock value the producers were trying to convey would be the reaction if that were the situation. For a moment the audince was put squarely in the shoes of the 24th century denizen trying to cope with the fact that the guy theyve been watching was not who he looked like.
I think a good explanation was that Bashir was napped wearing his old-style uniform, and the Changeling had a great deal of medical knowledge that enabled him to do what Bashir wouldve in 'Rapture'.. and that he didnt wreak any havoc because he was laying low waiting for his chance to blow up B'hava'el.
Of course, the main factor that went into this whole fiasco is the fact that the DS9 producers were chomping at the bit to get the new uniforms and props from FC, but TPTB didnt want fans to see the new stuff on TV first, they wanted all the 'new stuff awe' to be focused on their movie, so they made DS9 wait til the film had been well circulated before giving the go ahead to grab that stuff. They would have been better off waiting one more episode though, since the aforementioned oddity with the Changeling performing the Rapture surgery. And the fact that they couldnt afford enough uniforms for everyone! not only was Sisko wearing an ill fitting and incorrectly pinned version, but all of the Starfleet extras in the conference scene were wearing TNG uniforms (like the old ones from season 3!!!) Thats some evidence that uniform changes take a while in Starfleet.. probably major bases get new ones first, then farther out starships perhaps (since we knew that the TNG and DS9 uniforms were worn concurrently)? Just like the pin design changes a couple years before the uniform catches up..
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
Yeah.. i noticed tht the flag officer uniforms didnt change for a while (notice Adm. Ross didnt get his grey-shouldered FC flag uniform variant until they had devised it for Admiral Daugherty in ST:IX).. what i found interesting was that the Rapture guys were captains and commanders wearing old uniform variants
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
What? Insurrection hit the screens after DS9's sixth season, IIRC. We definitely see Ross in the grey uniform (with a couple belt variations) long before Dougherty came along.
One explanation we came up with before is that the grey uniforms and the early DS9/Voyager jumpsuits represent the Battle Dress Uniforms of the Starfleet wardrobe - that is, the everyday use uniforms. The TNG uniforms are the standard uniforms people wear around for less rugged use, and more office style duties. This is analogous to the US military uniform system, which sees BDU "camos" in general usewhen you're on everyday duty, and the slightly more suit-ish outfits when you're in the office. And of course, the really fancy dress whites for the really fancy occasions.
In other words, people on everyday starships would be wearing the BDU equivalent most days, like on Voyager or DS9. Fancier starships with fancier duties - like a flagship, for example - would probably stick to the more official standard uniforms that look better when you're trying to negotiate stuff or look good to your Federation neighbors. And then there's the best dress uniforms for everyone, for when you're greeting an ambassador or spying on Romulans.
What I believe is that the Enterprise-D, being the flagship and in never really in general combat duties, wouldn't have the BDU-equivalent of the day in its general wardrobe. But go to DS9, or Voyager, or any of the more gritty kinds of armpits in the Federation, and you'll see people in the jumpsuits. Then the War began warming up, and almost everyone switches over to the greytops in anticipation of everyone needing their more rugged qualities. And it just sorta stuck, at least until Starfleet can design a grey standard uniform to complement 'em.
All this is speculation, of course, and is subject to a bunch of little inconsistencies we see in the trek canon. For example, it is generally assumed that the Voyager crew never switched over to the greytops for the very practical reason that they had a mess of the colourtops already after inheriting DS9's supply, wanted to keep the movie franchise more visually separate, and also wanted a visual distinction between the Starfllet stuff happening on earth and Voyager. Plus, they save on not having to make custom-fitted uniforms for the main cast (despite spending more money on a bunch of one-shot uniforms for "Endgame").
posted
Uh ... yes, but then they started using both DS9- and TNG- style uniforms in Generations and destroyed *that* theory, Mark
If I had to guess, I'd say you're mostly right, in theory. Starships got the TNG uniform (we saw it being worn by the Lantree crew, for god's sake -- wouldn't they get the DS9 version?), and perhaps remote outposts got the DS9 version? Or perhaps the DS9 version was done special for DS9 -- (or similar situations) -- where Starfleet's administrates someone else's space station.
In any case, it seems to me someone at Starfleet's Uniform Development facility decided they liked the DS9 uniform enough they entered it as "optional wear" for any Starfleet member, and sure enough, they started showing up on the "Enterprise" ... and then, for some reason, they got rid of the TNG uniform altogether (uh ... why?)
posted
No. You see, in "Inquisition," Sloan is quite specific about the number of days Bashir was held captive, and using what stardates we know from that period, it's plain that Bashir wasn't abducted before "Rapture." I believe the writers actually put that in there to fix the mess they made, since they'd never intended for it to be implied it was the Chageling who operated on Sisko.
posted
Weren't they in the Grey uniforms in Rapture though?
Did they give a specific stardate for Rapture... maybe the episode was shown before the two parter but in reality happened after the read Bashir came back - if there was no Stardate given.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
Yes, they were in the grey uniforms in "Rapture." Therefore if he was taken while they still wore the old uniforms then it had to be before then. If only I could find my original notes - actually I wrote the whole post out in advance. I'm trying to get hold of it.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
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posted
Yeah, Sloan was a filthy sonofabitch liar. I wouldnt trust him to tell me how long he was in high school, the filthy sonofabitch. Bashir got kidnapped when the old uniforms were in use. All there is to it. Besides, stardates are no indication of how much time has passed and arent chronological. We have no way of knowing how far before IPS/BIL Rapture was based on them. Stardates are filthy sonsofbitches.
Probably Starfleet uniform designs take a while to be disseminated. Thats why Kirk and Co. switched to black collar uniforms after WNMHGB, but the Antares crew still had ribbed collar variants in Charlie X. .. We know that the season 3 TNG uniforms coexisted with DS9 uniforms .. they were even worn interchangably aboard the 1701D in Generations. Presumably, Picard chose only to use the regular uniforms, but at some point cleared his crew to choose between the dressy ones and the fatigue-ey ones (kinda like the difference between khakis or whites in the navy.. arent some just summer uniforms?.. or the personal decision involved with the TMP uniforms.. Wearing the tunic, or the epaulet jumpsuit, or the lapel-leisure tunic, etc....) So those uniforms are a group, and then Fleet changed to grey shoulders. Presumably farther out starships had to wait til they got an update before they switched to them, so in Rapture, DS9 had been updated.. but some starships still had the DS9/TNG variations. The people wearing the TNG uniforms in Rapture probably came from ships where people wore both TNG and DS9 uniforms like was seen in Generations.. and they might have gotten their grey uniforms the following tuesday... and I'm thankful Voyager didnt get the specs for the FC uniform over the 'Message in a Bottle' and decide to change.. wouldve been a bit of a stretch in any case. Lets just assume the Federation ships wouldnt change uniforms bsed on a transmission, but would wait until they physically recieved them in a dock or rendezvous.. SO Antares never got black-collars, Voyager waited til it got home to switch to FCs and the ships from Rapture were stil lawaiting their updated uniform shipments. And crew in the 1701D corridors kept blindly wearing season 1 variants... (a while back i thought this would be a great way to signify enlisted versus officers.. officers had the season 3 collar and enlisted had no collar an pointy stripes on there shoulders.. oh well)
Ross continued to wear his TNG admirals uniform for a while after the FC uni came into use on DS9 (i think during some of the war arc, but im not sure where he switched), so the admirals might have been the last to change. Youre right i mightve fudged up the Ross/Daugherty uniform time period. But as of FC Adm. Hayes wore a TNG admiral tunic too.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
posted
OK, suppose that the season 1 DS9 uniforms in 2369 were the Starbase uniforms. And the Starships still wore the Season 3 uniform. Then in 2371 there was a gradual change over to the DS9 season 1 uniforms as the uniforms for starships AND starbases. Hence Voyager. Then in 2373 we had the phasing in of the Grey uniforms. Maybe this meant that the Starbase uniforms that were taken on by the entire fleet were a stop-gap measure between the two major sorts of uniforms.
The Season 3 uniforms were only used for 6 years (until Generations). One would assume that a fleet wide change took place, Hence Voyager having the uniforms in 2372, as a standard uniform. The problems start to arise in the same year when in "Homefront/Paradise Lost" when Sisko returns to Earth - he subsequently changes out of the 'Starbase uniform' back into the season 3 'starship uniform' which is legitemate when viewed in light of "Emissary" (which seems to be the normal intention - two sets of uniforms), Generations blurs the line, but STILL it is acceptable for Sisko to wear the Season 3 uniform - since they were changing all over the place in Generations... but Why change at all when it was acceptable for anyone in any assignment to wear either the Starbase or starship uniform? Sisko felt like it?
Then along comes Katie Janeway in the STARBASE uniform - which seems to be either 1. The fleet standard or 2. Up to the Captain. Maybe this explains the discrepencies that pop up in the final two seasons of DS9 where the season 3 uniform appears again, one and two years after the new grey uniform appears in 2373.
So. Could it be a Captain's perrogative as to what his crew will wear - i.e. we don't seen any DS9 crewmembers during the 'mixed years of 2371 and 2372 wearing the Starship uniform, while on duty on the starbase. Maybe it was up to the Captain of a particular ship when the crew of his or her starship decided to change. Janeway deemed it unnecessary on their journey home. The captains that appeared in the Season 3 uniforms while the others are in grey uniforms might have decided to stay with the old uniforms. Maybe this is allowable until a certain date?
Maybe as mentioned, they only changed when they got to a suitable starbase.
Maybe since it was war time those captains did think it was necessary to change over. Or that their old uniforms were destroyed?
What would REALLY stuff things up now would be for a group of officers to walk in, in pre 2366 uniforms. (and they hadn't been caught in some time paradox). We never did see what Lisa Cusak's uniform looked like... did we!?! It should have been pre 2366 (season 1/2 TNG)
Maybe, the producers change the uniforms too much.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
...I always thought that the original DS9 uniforms were "working" uniforms (which is why they are listed as "jumpsuits"). Since DS9 would need a lot of nitty-gritty engineering work, they needed a more relaxed uniform where they could roll up their sleeves and such. That's why Sisko and Dax wore the more formal TNG uniforms until they got to DS9. When Sisko went back to Earth, he switched to the more formal TNG uniform again. Voyager seemed to imply that some ships not on the front lines "showing the flag" like the Ent-D could wear the less formal DS9 uniforms.
Of course, the uniform mixing in Generations seems odd, but maybe the crew of the Ent-D was allowed the less formal DS9 uniforms as a choice (perhaps they wanted to wear them while working on the refit of the Ent-D between TNG and Generations, which I imagine would have the same working characteristics as the retrofitting of DS9).
posted
So that's it? That's your argument? "Sloan was lying?" That's quite possibly the most moronic assertion I've ever come across round here, and believe me I've seen some doozies. OK, O keeper of the True Trek, why didn't Bashir then say "it was actually "x" days" then?