posted
You're basing your arguments largely on the Organian treaty and the lower number in the D-5 designation, suggesting Kirk, Spock, and other senior officers never thought of comparing the Klingon cloak, used to conceal the presence of a Klingon fleet that would achieve a major Klingon victory over the Federation while they were busy doing repairs, victory that the senior officers and the scientist Spock should've heard about, to the Romulan "invisibility shield" because the latter seemed easy to install in "Enterprise Incident".
However, I doubt that ease of installation and operation has anything to do with the basic technology behind any cloak, which is the selective bending of light and other electromagnetic radiation. Hence, if the Klingons had been using cloaks of any kind, especially in such a major victory over the Federation, someone on the Enterprise should've known and said so, not kept silent and theorized or even doubted the existence of an invisible ship as they did in "Balance of Terror."
posted
The Federation needn't necessarily have known about the cloaks after Caleb IV. All they knew was that the Klingons suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Maybe they thought it was just some sort of sensor-jamming.
Someone pointed out that the attack mihgt have happened at the time of "Errand of Mercy", and that it was what caused the Federation to declare war. I doubt that this would be right. After all, if Kor had just won a huge victory like that, why would the Empire have hurriedly shuffled him off to a military governorship that he didn't want? They should have been praising him, not punishing him. I would guess the battle had to be well before EoM, and the nature of the cloaking device just wasn't made clear to the Feds.
Of course, there's also the possibility (or probability?) that Kor was just talking out of his ass... :-)
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posted
Phelps said: "You're basing your arguments largely on the Organian treaty and the lower number in the D-5 designation, suggesting Kirk, Spock, and other senior officers never thought of comparing the Klingon cloak, used to conceal the presence of a Klingon fleet that would achieve a major Klingon victory over the Federation while they were busy doing repairs, victory that the senior officers and the scientist Spock should've heard about, to the Romulan "invisibility shield" because the latter seemed easy to install in "Enterprise Incident".
Yup!
Anyways, I just wanted to find out what was known and possible interpretations of it. Since this is going into my fan fiction (Starfleet Museum), I'm not trying to find the one single most likely explanation or convince others of it. Just looking for ideas at this point.
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posted
There is another possible time frame for the Battle of Caleb 4.
Dates:
2267 Organian Peace Treaty
2270 "Day of the Dove" (In episode, Kang says the Klngons have kept their side of the treaty for three years.)
2285 ST III: The Search for Spock In a discussion aboard the later named HMS Bounty, the Klingon Captain mentions peace negotiations between the Federation and the Klingons.
So, between 2270 and 2285, the imposed peace of the Organian Treaty dissolved into conflict. Based on data that we have for the use of the cloaking device, the Klingons didn't have a cloaking device in the 2260's or the early 2270's (TMP). They did have a cloaking device by 2285. So, this gives us a window of 12 years (2285-2273=12) in which the Battle of Caleb IV could have taken place.
Furthermore, Kor was relaying a story of Klingons in a weakened position gaining the upper hand by subterfuge and cunning. Just like the mission they were on.
So, in conclusion, after the loss of the IKS Amar in 2273, the Klingons learned how to use the cloaking device. As they learned the cloaking device, the Organian Treaty was violated and rendered null by actions taken by both parties-the Federation and the Klingons. The Battle of Caleb 4 would have taken place in these days, probably mid-2270's to late-2270's.
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posted
This sounds quite good. Regardless of how the Klingons got their cloaks, the technology would probably remain "new" for a few decades at least. So even a mission in the 2270 would fit the bill, even though we have no direct verification of Klingon aggressions towards the UFP in that period.
However, the way Kor mentions the "old" D-5 cruisers does make me yearn for something a little more dated. And I agree that a Klingon attack some time before "Balance of Terror" could still involve cloaks, as long as the surprise was so complete that no witnesses remained to the use. Perhaps Caleb IV was annihilated. Or perhaps the people who saw the cloaks in action (the ATC officers or the perimeter patrol teams) were killed, and only "ignorant bystanders" survived.
If we go by "Unexpected", we might in fact say that the Klingons got the cloaks first, and then gave them to the Romulans. Being new to the device, the Romulans badly botched up their first mission and revealed the secret of the device's existence. The device wouldn't be very "new" to Kor then, though, unless it took a century or so to refine it from the "Unexpected" form to the final practical TOS form.
posted
During the run of the first series, there was no mention given of the Klingons having a cloaking device. Considering the number of times that battle did take place between these two fleets in the original, we would have heard of the Klingons having this device.
Contrary to fan opinion, I side with canonicity when it states that the Romulans didn't have warp drive prior to 2269 ("Insurrection"). We know that in 2269 that the Romulans were using Klingon warships equipped with warp drives and cloaking devices. In this deal, what did the Klingons get? I think they got the cloaking device and lessons on how to build a stronger ship.
As shown in the first series, Klingon warships weren't really a match to Federation ships. A single scout could be destroyed by a volley of torpodoes ("Errand of Mercy") or a battlecruiser damaged by several well targeted phaser strikes ("Elaan of Troyius"). After suffering horribly in battle, the Klingons needed an advantage in warfare. This advantage was the cloaking device. They could sneak in on an enemy ship and strike the ship before the crew had time to react.
As for the Romulans, their ships were no match for Federation starships. They might have been able to travel close to the FTL barrier, but they couldn't do warp. Within a year of the battle at the Neutral Zone, the Romulans were forced to use ten of their warbirds to drive a single starship out of their territory ("The Deadly Years"). So, at a disadvantage, they formed a temporary alliance with the Klingons and learned warp drive. They later abandoned this warp drive system for a more unique and complicated warp system involving the use of singularities.
Why didn't the Klingons ask for cloaking technology from the Xytherians? Klingons were able to defend themselves and their worlds. They had the advantage against the humans. No nation in the 2150's could conquer the Klingon nation.
So, the canonical evidence points to the Klingons having cloaking technology after 2269. And the Romulans having warp technology after 2269.
And, there is evidence of conflict between the two sides in the words of the Klingon commander in ST 3. He specifically states that negotiators of his nation and that of the Federation are working on a peace treaty. A peace treaty is usually discussed after a period of intense, bloody conflict.
And I just remembered somthing else-we do have the earliest known ship to have cloaking technology in the Klingon fleet. In that 7th season episode of Voyager with the religious Klingons, a D-7 from 2275 used a cloak to hide itself from the sensors of the USS Voyager NCC-74656. We know that the IKS Amar didn't use cloak in 2273 when she and two sister ships engaged V'Ger based on visual evidence of the battle. So, between 2273 and 2275, Klingons first employed the cloaking device on selected ships. This narrows the window for the Battle of Caleb V to 10 years (2275-2285).
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]
posted
This is certainly one working model of how things could be. There's plenty of room for models to the contrary, though. So far we mostly have absence of evidence instead of evidence of absence when it comes to early cloaking devices. And that's to be expected, isn't it, when we are talking about something that *cannot be seen* when it's working right?
Consider this: we know little about how Klingons age, except that they are fully grown adults at eight (at least if they are 1/4 human like Alexander) and tend to grey out by sixty or so (Worf in "AGT..") but can survive till the triple digits (Kor, Kang, Koloth, Darvin). See the other thread.
So Kor could have been walloping Calder IV well before TOS, and could in theory be alive in Archer's time already if dramatically needed. Klingon cloaks could have been a novelty back then. And given how Klingons are so utterly superior to humans at that point it would be no wonder if their attacks left no witnesses and their cloaks stayed a secret for the better part of a century.
It would only be with the escalating of hostilities in the 2220s that the Klingons would be pressed to closer contact with humans, and the battlefield would be leveled somewhat. Kor would have plenty of time to fall in some disfavor & accumulate the years that would make him senior enough to be a planetary governor. The fashion statements of the day would hide his age easily enough. Kang could be fifty years his junior or more...
posted
Not that I'd be especially happy if *that* happened...
Frankly, I hope the writers will simply surprise us with something even more unexpected as regards the cloaking history. There's so much leeway there for them to indulge themselves.
posted
No, it hasn't. It has made reference on two occasions or so to ships equipped with "stealth technology" which some people are getting all huffed up about because they think they're cloaking devices.
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posted
2273 for TMP now?
the 5year mission ended in 2270 and the refit is eighteen months.. that yields you 2271 (as chronicled) for TMP.. or at the latest, 2272.
I understand that Q2 pushed the end of the 5YM back from the chronology date of 2269, but it warrants the addition of one year, not two.
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posted
I think it comes down to this -- if all we knew was that the ship was a D-5, then the simplest and mose likely date would be way before TOS. However, we also know it had a cloak, which complicates things since we haven't seen Klingons cloak until after TMP, and we know Kirk hasn't heard about a Klingon cloak before "BoT". That evidence pushes the date to after TMP, and is also supported by the Klothos operating as late as TAS.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: 2273 for TMP now?
the 5year mission ended in 2270 and the refit is eighteen months.. that yields you 2271 (as chronicled) for TMP.. or at the latest, 2272.
I understand that Q2 pushed the end of the 5YM back from the chronology date of 2269, but it warrants the addition of one year, not two.
You forgot that Kirk said to Scotty, "Two and a half years in Starfleet Operations may have made me a bit stale, but I wouldn't call myself 'un-tried.'" (paraphrase) Later, Decker says to Kirk, "You haven't logged a single star-hour in two and a half years."
Yes, the refit took eighteen months... but, probably due to the re-design proccess, it didn't begin until a solid year after the five-year mission. If the Enterprise returned around the middle of 2270, two and a half years later would be the end of 2272 or the beginning of 2273. If she retuened late in 2270, it would have to be 2273; in any case, 2273 is not an unreasonable conjecture.
(This two and a half year gap is also why The Motion Picture was in late 2271 by Okuda's reckoning to begin with; early 2269 plus eighteen months would only be late 2270.)
posted
Could we not sort of merge both theories? Since the D-7 seems to have a rather long life, could not a D-5 still be in service (but perhaps near the end of her service life) in the years between "The Motion Picture" and "The Search For Spock?" Indeed, if such a ship was old, that could explain why making the (relatively newly aquired) cloaking device work on it was so difficult.
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