And anyway, do a bit of research before you pop off like that. FJ's works were official/canon (the terms are somewhat interchangable in his case) up until around '85. It wasn't until his and Gene Roddenberry's ralationship soured and died over perceived insults and miscommunications related to a non-Trek project they were working on that Gene started setting out to invalidate FJ's contributions...
But the makers of the first three Trek movies still incorporated fragments of his stuff into the sets and dialogue.
According to Andy Probert, the refit 1701 was the first Enterprise-class ship, and the set decorators took that into consideration for Star Trek II.
It wasn't until Gene found a good tool in Mike Okuda that fandom started being expunged from the Trek universe. I don't fault Mike for this -- he had every right to listen to the creator of Star Trek, and didn't necessarily know some bad blood had resulted in some irrational peevishness in the Great Bird of the Galaxy.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Er, sorry? Who the fuck are you anyway? Joseph's info may have been considered "official" (I can make the distinction even if he couldn't) but just because some of it made it onscreen and is therefore "canon" doesn't mean that anything else he did is. Sorry, but there it is. I know how some of you dream that one day something you suggested might be so honoured, but it takes all kinds to make a world, I guess. . .
So Mim had a very good reason to ask what the point of this thread is. It's not going to solve anything. Nothing on Earth will make me take seriously that the Centaur is a Baracus-class starship, any more than I'd expect any of you to accept my theory it's a Chimera.
"Do a bit of research," heh heh heh. Get through puberty and then try talking to me like that again.
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I don't think any good can come from this, but I'd like to point out that I read that as "talk to me angina," which sounds rather fatalistic.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Look fools the only thing that is a Baracus Class is a 1982 Custom GMC Van - Black with a Spoiler in back.
No if's, and's, but's, or why's.
Oh yeah...WTF were those prints that Scotty was looking at in ST6 that said Constitution Class? Last time I checked you don't spell Enterprise Class - C-o-n-s-t-i-t-u-t-i-o-n.
Probert is a great guy...but he also says that single and tri-nacelled ships shouldn't exist. Seems to me that I have seen more than my fair share of those...and I don't buy that dual warp coil shit either...
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Well, back when the question was asked, I thought the point of this thread was humor. But that theory went down the shitter mighty fast...
Registered: Mar 1999
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I apologize for causing the serious turn things took. Being one of those twats over at the ASDB, I was just a little offended by that remark. That, and the fact that the succeeding comment about FJ seemed pretty damned uninformed got my hackles up.
I mean... I know what I know, and part of what I know is a pretty clear picture of the history of GR's and FJ's relationship, the nature of FJ's pseudo-research for the Tech Manual and deck plans -- and the errors therein, and how both of those affected what (and who) came after.
This reconstruction I've pieced together from conversations with Andy, Mike, Matt, Rick S., Majel, and FJ's daughter, both personally and in interviews. Forgive me for asking that assertions be backed up with facts and evidence rather than insulting vitriol.
--Jonah
P.S. I'm 27 -- puberty is a fading memory.
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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Apology accepted. I personally have had enough of the opinion which some people have expressed, that because I maybe don't post in the Forum on a regular basis anymore, that I don't know my stuff.
As for opinions of FJ's work, again it comes down to how you view canon. He may have done a lot of theoretical work in the 70's, work which was either the basis of or inspiration for FASA etc., and it may well have influenced development of modern Trek through the Phase II TV show and then the movies, but that to me doesn't mean I have to accept everything he ever did as official. I don't denigrate his work either; his misfortune was to have ended up viewed by GR as a rival Trek expert; who knows, if GR was alive today Okuda might have suffered a similar fate. . .
posted
Ah, now I see where you're coming from. And I see how my comments could have been interpreted differently from what I intended.
I know much of the conjectural stuff in FJ's Tech Manual is way out there and utterly unsupported by what came before or after. However, several elements that were used in the first three movies should not be dismissed as errors -- nor should they be used to try to prop up the rest of his fantasizings.
As much as I support certain aspects of the TM, I also roundly bitch him out posthumously for not thinking to track down Matt Jeffries for Enterprise/Starfleet-related material -- and for utterly fucking up the registry system as a result, among other things.
On the flip side, I also don't interpret everything from the pen of Mike Okuda as holy writ. Nor do I view the finished films and episodes as 'incontravertable proof' of how things really are...
Indeed, the only source I consider inviolable is Matt Jeffries. Everything else is based off of his original material or misinterpretations of it. I can cite chapter and verse the things he put forth that no one else involved in the production of Star Treks since bothered to find out about, and that if followed, would have resulted in a far more consistent and logical structure of Starfleet than what we've got to rationalize over nowadays.
--Jonah
P.S. I personally don't care for Baracus-class... pity me.
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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To take the thread on a turn for the silly:
"I think it is quite plain that Lt. Reginald "Howling Mad" Barclay was a Flint-like character, but one who, unlike Flint, was psychologically incapable of living with his immortal condition with all of his marbles. It all makes sense . . . he had passed himself off as Capt. "Howling Mad" Murdock during the late twentieth century, when, in keeping with is later Broccoli-ism, he was a mental case.
We can see the pattern of advancement in his disguise work . . . after all, he had combat experience with the master of disguise, John "Hannibal" Smith. So, after a late twentieth century stint as a guy with no first name, he finally (by the twenty-fourth century) was using a first name, clearly showing his learning process in action.
We may theorize that Murdock/Barclay was born sometime in the so-called "Age of Chivalry", since we are aware of his fascination with swordplay. The Cytherians probably chose him as their emissary because they were aware of his long experience. And, of course, we mustn't forget that it was Barclay's immune system that was responsible for the genetic illness that afflicted the crew in "Genesis". Naturally, any Flint-like immortal would have to have a peculiar, powerful immune system, which Dr. Crusher would naturally have been unable to predict when she gave him her treatment and saw it go awry.
Now, while I at first balked at the concept of naming the Centaur a "Baracus Class Starship", I think it is clearly a good theory. After all, not only does it bear philosophical similarities with the slapped-together buttwhoopers Murdock/Barclay had helped "Bad Attitude" Baracus construct back in the twentieth century, but it also has some of the grace and charm of Face's Corvette, which Murdock/Barclay, as a pilot, would have always favored.
Thus, it is readily apparent that Barclay was either a starship designer prior to his Enterprise-D work, or else a starship designer in a life immediately prior to his time as Reginald "Howling Mad" Barclay, during which time he helped create and name the Centaur-type starships."
There ya go, guys. Lighten up. :-)
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
Oh, and NeghVar? When Andy drafted the Enterprise for TMP, he dubbed it Enterprise-class, as it was so distinct from what we saw in TOS. The carried over into Star Trek II, with the sign on the Academy wall reading "Mark IV Simulator - Enterprise Class". I know in our current state of trying to rationalize everything, the accepted notion is that it's the simulator set aside for use by the cadet class assigned to the Enterprise, but...
The Enterprise-refit as Constitution-class didn't crop up until Mike Okuda's revisionist history at the behest of Gene got into full swing. You can cite Star Trek VI all you want. Mike put that blueprint in Scotty's hand specifically to kill off the notion that the refit was "Enterprise-class", as fandom had been eschewing for years based on Andy Probert's take on things over a decade previous.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
If the same amount of effort had been put into an attempt to decanonize the idea that the TMP ship was the TOS ship refitted, I'd send Mike 47 truckloads of champagne or something. Back in the days of the first couple of movies, it wouldn't have been completely impossible to drive a wedge between 1701-TOS and 1701-TMP and to defeat the intent of the TMP writers while preserving much of the spirit of the dialogue.
Alternately, Probert could have done a more believable "refit" in the first place...
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So do people think the TMP-1701 is a refit of the TOS-1701 or not? I think so. But as for renaming the class, I'm not so sure. The only 'canon' example of an extreme refit getting a new class name is the Soyuz. I know there's this whole subculture out there for identifying sub-classes, from FASA onwards, you know, the Avenger, Bonhomme Richard, etc., etc., but I think you all know my attitude to such fan-originated theories like that by now. 8)
quote:Oh, and NeghVar? When Andy drafted the Enterprise for TMP, he dubbed it Enterprise-class, as it was so distinct from what we saw in TOS. The carried over into Star Trek II, with the sign on the Academy wall reading "Mark IV Simulator - Enterprise Class". I know in our current state of trying to rationalize everything, the accepted notion is that it's the simulator set aside for use by the cadet class assigned to the Enterprise, but...
The Enterprise-refit as Constitution-class didn't crop up until Mike Okuda's revisionist history at the behest of Gene got into full swing. You can cite Star Trek VI all you want. Mike put that blueprint in Scotty's hand specifically to kill off the notion that the refit was "Enterprise-class", as fandom had been eschewing for years based on Andy Probert's take on things over a decade previous.
Jonah?
Really...revisionist history? Where is the dedication plaque saying "Enterprise" Class for the 1701 Refit? I can't seem to recall ever seeing it.
I don't care who you want to deify as lord of "canon." Like GR's request for Constitution Class was not more relevant than Probert's Enterprise Class? WTF?
quote:Nor do I view the finished films and episodes as 'incontravertable proof' of how things really are...
And as for your commentary on this...you just fucked your credibility for knowing what is or is not "canon."
I can understand conflicting "canon" facts and how people have their own opinions on which is right, and which is wrong. But you would choose an illustrator's view over the creative director's/creator's view?
At least we agree that the "Baracus" Class idea is dumb as shit...
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