quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: Nope, it's another of those "newbie can't be assed to do his own research" threads. . .
I don't remember anyone slaggin' me off for asking about the American Police Force ranks and organisational structure(s) a while back, or about Navy/Army uniform markings. Quite the opposite - everyone was extremely helpful and went out of their ways to read my request and give links that were very helpful.
If you don't want to help people, stop slagging them off and don't read their threads Vogon Poet!
-------------------- If you cant convince them, confuse them.
Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
Well, get a clue. I merely said what sort of thread this was. I never said people shouldn't help; I never said he shouldn't post this kind of thread. Koy- Koy-, oh, WhateverThe'FuckHisNameIs so far appears to be making a decent contribution here, most examples of this kind of thread are people like that guy over in the Voyager forum asking what class Voyager is, or something equally imbecilic.
posted
The problem is that, on TOS, splitting helm and navigation seemed to be redundant more often then not. We saw on more than one occasion Sulu do everything the navigation station did, including plotting courses.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
On an unrelated note, I am curious why Lee said "assed", rather than "arsed". Honestly, even as an American, I don't think the phrase sounds right as "assed".
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Ah, in theory the stations are placed where they would be most accessible by the crew in emergency or in general situations like scanning an astroid for ten days or fighting a Galor Class. I wouldn't want to be stuck at the science station for that long so it better have a view of the viewscreen or another monitor where I can look up useless facts about starships in the fleet. I don't care even if I'm on the Federation's flagship doing this boring task.
[ March 30, 2002, 20:51: Message edited by: Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge ]
-------------------- "It speaks to some basic human needs: that there is a tomorrow, it's not all going to be over with a big splash and a bomb, that the human race is improving, that we have things to be proud of as humans." -Gene Roddenberry about Star Trek
Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Tim: I grew up abroad, "ass" was the way I learnt to spell it. It lead to all kinds of hilarity when, say, talking about "ass" as in "donkey." 8)
posted
OK Vogon Poet, so I misinterpreted what you meant.
In any case - I am a Brit and
SHOVE IT UP YOU A-R-S-E!
HEHE!
-------------------- If you cant convince them, confuse them.
Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
lets send the bridge guy to that gilsomething guys website, with way too many blue-on-white blueprints and the such? wheres that at again?
btw, i love how a new members thread about a trek topic can degrade to established members telling each other to shove it in their arses in 22 posts or less. god bless flare
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
quote: I'm less than inspired. Aspire to not claim that you inspire people.
quote: And you're a newbie here. Consider this your initiation. And I hardly consider fanfic to add to the Trek universe very much.
quote: Nope, it's another of those "newbie can't be assed to do his own research" threads. . .
I'm not sure what the hell is wrong with you guys but lay the f*ck off, i'm really sure that you have written a three hundred and fifty-two page novel before. and thats just the begining.
And about that aspiring thing, that was somewhat of a typo…and I know what you’re thinking a typo on a three line paragraph is pretty stupid, but sh*t happens to the best of us.
[ March 31, 2002, 18:05: Message edited by: koy'peled Oy'tio ]
Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Koy, calm down. That's how we are all the time. We treat newbies like this and we treat established members like this. You're welcome to contribute to this kind of "attitude"
-------------------- Is it Friday yet?
Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Time to hijack this thread for the better...
As far as I can tell, The Original Series use of the helm and navigation stations was always a mish-mash of stuff. It seemed that either person sitting their could pilot the ship on their own. Of course, I think it was always up to the helmsman to engage the flight. Plus, it seemed that fire control duties were under the helmsman's and navigator's jurisdictions. And again, either person seemed capable of firing the weapons.
As far I can tell, it seems that the helm and navigation stations were more like a jack-of-all-trades set of stations. The helm had that pop-up sensor viewer that could mimic some of the science station's duties. Tactical, flight control, and security were routed to the same stations as well. The only stations that haven't really been mimicked there are communications and engineering (at least that I know of). I wonder if this was simply a set of stations used for training command-track officers. After all, most of the time we only saw gold-shirts sitting there (although, in "Errand of Mercy" there was a red-shirt at helm and blue-shirt at navigation).
I had hoped that the area at aft on Enterprise's bridge was a navigation area. Considering the limited nature of the ship's navbanks and star charts (hell, even the Vulcan's maps were missing stuff), there has to be a lab onboard where the stellar cartographers are sipping coffee, eating donuts, and making maps. The TNG tech manual made several references to navigation laboratories onboard, an episode of Voyager had Paris altering commands from a navigation center, and I have a vague recollection of something similar being mentioned in TOS (but I may be wrong).
The thing that gets me most about the Enterprise's bridges is the problem of the magical disappearing and reappearing weapons console. Enterprise has one. The Original Series does not. Movies 1 through 3 have one. Movies 5 and 6 kinda sorta have one. The Next Generation has one. I give ST5 and ST6 a questionable status since the tactical station(s) (one in ST5 and two small ones in ST6) seem to be unmanned like the Master Situation station. In Star Trek 2, weapons were fired by Sulu at the helm except for one instance when Chekov fired torpedoes from the weapons station. In Star Trek 3, Scotty fires the torpedoes from navigation. In Star Trek 6, Chekov fires the weapons from navigation. I would say that the launch of the Enterprise-B seemed to stabilize the dedicated weapons console, but I can't think of where how weapons were controlled on the Enterprise-C.
Another thing about bridges in general is that they seem to be doing a crescendo-decrendo. Enterprise's bridge has five manned stations. TOS Enterprise's bridge had, I believe seven or eight. In the TOS movies, there are about ten stations. In TNG, there are eight stations but only three of which are constantly manned. The Defiant had five stations (as did Voyager) that were always manned. But I think the Enterprise-E ruins this effect by going back to eight stations.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Time to hijack this thread for the better...
As far as I can tell, The Original Series use of the helm and navigation stations was always a mish-mash of stuff. It seemed that either person sitting their could pilot the ship on their own. Of course, I think it was always up to the helmsman to engage the flight. Plus, it seemed that fire control duties were under the helmsman's and navigator's jurisdictions. And again, either person seemed capable of firing the weapons.
As far I can tell, it seems that the helm and navigation stations were more like a jack-of-all-trades set of stations. The helm had that pop-up sensor viewer that could mimic some of the science station's duties. Tactical, flight control, and security were routed to the same stations as well. The only stations that haven't really been mimicked there are communications and engineering (at least that I know of). I wonder if this was simply a set of stations used for training command-track officers. After all, most of the time we only saw gold-shirts sitting there (although, in "Errand of Mercy" there was a red-shirt at helm and blue-shirt at navigation).
There was definitely some of the reconfigurability referred to by Okuda in the TNGTM . . . I'm thinking it was "Balance of Terror" where Uhura was ordered by Kirk to man the navigator's station. She hopped up and sat where Stiles had been, but when Kirk asked for hailing frequencies to be opened, she did it right there, and didn't need to go running back to her own comm station.
Sulu definitely had the nifty pop-up tactical display, but without special effort I doubt it provided much more than what you'd basically need for combat.
I recall also that Chekov's navigator station had some engineering elements to it . . . he got a "red light" on one of the impulse vents in "Obsession", which would seem to have been a warning better suited to the Engineering console.
Naturally, a measure of redundancy is a good thing, not to mention reconfigurability . . . but it still seems damn peculiar for Mayweather to be sitting there all by his wee lonesome.
quote:I had hoped that the area at aft on Enterprise's bridge was a navigation area. Considering the limited nature of the ship's navbanks and star charts (hell, even the Vulcan's maps were missing stuff), there has to be a lab onboard where the stellar cartographers are sipping coffee, eating donuts, and making maps. The TNG tech manual made several references to navigation laboratories onboard, an episode of Voyager had Paris altering commands from a navigation center, and I have a vague recollection of something similar being mentioned in TOS (but I may be wrong).
That's a good idea for what it probably ought to be, though it can be darn near anything.
I'd imagine that, especially on older ships, the bridge stations weren't necessarily rigged for direct control of things, but were the order-giving and information-sharing interface, if that makes any sense.
Hmm . . . it probably didn't.
Let's use an example . . . while Spock is cool and the Enterprise computers no doubt were fabulous, I doubt that he was the one poring over every single bit of information the sensors provided. I would think that underlings at other stations throughout the ship were looking over their little bits of information and flagging them to be sent along. Spock, or someone else along the way, could get the bright idea of "Hey, this could be a so-and-so reading", and either just send it along, or get more information out of the underling working with his particular sensor.
This would, if nothing else, help explain what the hell everyone else is doing all the time. Generally during red alert situations, we see everyone in every colored shirt go running around like they are doing something, but we usually only see the bridge crew, engineers, and sometimes the security people doing something worthwhile in alert situations.
quote:The thing that gets me most about the Enterprise's bridges is the problem of the magical disappearing and reappearing weapons console. Enterprise has one. The Original Series does not. Movies 1 through 3 have one. Movies 5 and 6 kinda sorta have one. The Next Generation has one. I give ST5 and ST6 a questionable status since the tactical station(s) (one in ST5 and two small ones in ST6) seem to be unmanned like the Master Situation station. In Star Trek 2, weapons were fired by Sulu at the helm except for one instance when Chekov fired torpedoes from the weapons station. In Star Trek 3, Scotty fires the torpedoes from navigation. In Star Trek 6, Chekov fires the weapons from navigation. I would say that the launch of the Enterprise-B seemed to stabilize the dedicated weapons console, but I can't think of where how weapons were controlled on the Enterprise-C.
Unless I'm mistaken, Yar took over the tactical station, which was placed where Ops would be aboard the E-D. Of course, given the damage to the ship, any dedicated tactical station may have been down, leading Costillo to reconfigure Ops for tactical duties (since he kinda figured they were about to go get into some shit).
quote:Another thing about bridges in general is that they seem to be doing a crescendo-decrendo. Enterprise's bridge has five manned stations. TOS Enterprise's bridge had, I believe seven or eight. In the TOS movies, there are about ten stations. In TNG, there are eight stations but only three of which are constantly manned. The Defiant had five stations (as did Voyager) that were always manned. But I think the Enterprise-E ruins this effect by going back to eight stations.
Just to add another wrench to the works, Generations showed the Enterprise bridge with ten stations, with at least five (including the two new ones) constantly manned.
Another peculiar aspect about the E-E is that the conn and ops stations are so frickin' tiny. The E-D ops station, for example, had the large flat area, with auxiliary controls running down the left-hand side. The E-E ops station appears to have even less control space than the flat panel area on the E-D, and worse yet, it's all wrapped around, 180 degrees of wee little things to look at. Then, of course, there's the ops station on Voyager, which not only has the space of the E-D, but a little side area and a whole huge wall area for Harry to play in. Makes the tiny E-E ops station seem even more silly.
No wonder, then, that the E-E needs more stations. You've gotta break up the workload among more people when you replace everyone's desktop with a handheld PDA.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
-------------------- "Explore New Worlds"
Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
One thing people always seem to forget is that every single person of the 430 on Enterprise must have had a job to do (besides being the unlucky wearer of the red shirt). A lot of people think that a starship could be run by 7 people from the bridge, but the truth is it would just fall apart without the lower decks doing their jobs. (actually it did fall apart.. in 'The Search for Spock', running the ship by automation failed in no time flat)
This includes dozens of grunts who actually run around phaser rooms, to target and fire them (seen in 'Balance of Terror', the yellow jumpsuit guys Tomlinson commanded, analogous to the assorted extra grunts that seemed to be required for torpedo launching in 'The Wrath of Khan'); lots of engineers and probably shuttle pilots, nurses, scientists, etc etc, and probably map technicians (BTW, 'The Corbomite Maneuver' began on the bridge with photographing starcharts, an activity which involved several of the bridge officers.
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: btw, i love how a new members thread about a trek topic can degrade to established members telling each other to shove it in their arses in 22 posts or less. god bless flare
Oh goodie! Have I set a new Flare record!??
quote:Originally posted by koy’peled Oy’tio: well thank you Dat it is nice to know that i'm not being singled out.
Naw . . . it's just our way of saying "hello"
-------------------- If you cant convince them, confuse them.
Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
