posted
Well done. This thread finally made me write a rant that's been brewing for a long time. I've had the loosecanon.net domain for a while and I've always meant to use it like this, so here goes:
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
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I do not understand why people must enforce Roddenbery's view of what's non-canon and what's canon upon others? Yes, he is the creator, yes whatever he says most of the time goes. So in other words, Star Trek V and TAS never existed? I believe that he wanted others to be de-canonized?
You have your own feelings about what you would consider canon, and so do everyone else. Just because your canon ethics conflict others, does not mean the others are wrong you are right.
Most will use non-canon and a bit of imagination to fill in the blanks that was left by canon sources. Isn't that what's websites like UP3 or DITL, and so on are all about? Filling in the blanks? You don't like to use those sites, ok, but do not enforce that belief that since you don't use, that everyone else should not use it.
-------------------- Matrix If you say so If you want so Then do so
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Good article. However, there are several things I'd like to comment on:
1) Continuity, or a simple continuity at least, need not be sacrificed for good individual stories. How many B5 stories are obviously continuous? For instance, Lennier says in "Parliament of Dreams" that there are two castes of Minbari, but then we learn that there is a worker caste likewise. Discrepancy? No -- we really don't see much of the worker caste in the show, while the canon novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" explains that the worker caste is badly treated, that they weren't allowed into the rangers, etc. Given that nobody ever mentioned "two castes of Minbari" again, JMS probably changed his mind about this at some point, yet he still remained consistent with the former line.
Then in Star Wars, we learn that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. There is very little evidence that Lucas intended this from the beginning; in any case, he explained Kenobi's lie, and such surprising twists make for good drama and reveal different points of view and different sides to the characters.
Hence, you can have a good story and good continuity, by simply explaining at some point later in the series why Archer didn't learn the name of the Ferengi or why Klingon ships were called warbirds.
Furthermore, the writer of any given episode need not consider 500 episodes. All you need to stay consistent with, if you're writing, say, a Klingon episode is to check the Encyclopedia for what we know about the Klingons, or ask Ron Moore. Then go surf online to find whatever you can about phaser power limitations. And then surf online to see what you've missed, and remember to include an explanation in the show later on.
2) Although the writers may still have some shows they prefer, they nevertheless have to at least take into account the other Star Trek shows to some extent. That's the difference between one's creative canon and a legal canon sanctioned by Paramount. Hence, the definition given by Moore and Ordover isn't simply a generalization, but rather a set of constraints. You can't simply ignore Voyager or TOS, yet you absolutely can ignore any novel or the TMs.
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
The B5 example is a case that proves my point. Continuity as applied by some rabid fanboys would have forbidden JMS to have added the Worker Caste after having stated the number of castes to be two.
Changing one, or two, or a dozen item(s) does not invalidate all continuity (something that the Enterprise-bashers would do well to remember).
And I never said that you can't have both continuity and good stories. Just that good stories are more important than contiuity, by oh, a factor of 1000 or so.
And the Enterprise writers don't need to ever explain why "Archer didn't learn the name of the Ferengi or why Klingon ships were called warbirds". Would it help the story to explain those things? Or would it just shut up a few fanboys? It's a big universe, strange and wonderful things happen. Most of them happen off screen and never get mentioned. So what?
That's why I love the "we don't talk about it" line w.r.t. Klingon foreheads. It sticks two fingers up at the fanboys and refuses to nail things down. Of course, the DS9 writers had the best approach to continuity, want a war with huge fleets? Sure go ahead and have one and screw the continuity that says that 39 ships is a lot for Starfleet.
If I write a Klingon story which version of the Klingons should I write for? The TOS ones, sneaky back stabbing bastards in a regimented society or the ENT/TNG/DS9/VOY ones, honourable warriors in an anarchic society? If I'm writing a TOS book? If I'm writing a book set in the 2210s? I have to ignore some of the episodes in order to write Klingons in a non-schizoid fashion.
And for your point two. Those are restraints placed on people writing for the TV show or licensed books. They don't apply to us fans. We have more creative freedom than the 'real' writers, we should rejoice in that freedom, not run away from it.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
It's not necessary to explain things by referring explicitly to lines containing an "error". Lennier's line was never verbally explained, but clues were given in the show that make the answer obvious. I'm saying that the Enterprise writers should intentionally include clues that explain things that could be perceived as mistakes, and that they should take constant complaints by hard-core fans as a sign that maybe some things need to be made *a little* more obvious on the show. Perfection is in trifles.
For instance, the next time you write in a Klingon ship, simply call it a warbird. Even simpler, make a reference to the five Klingon warbirds you encountered last week (there are many ways to accomplish the task, and one of them might even help the current story). That way, the viewers will no longer perceive the reference as a mistake. When writing Klingons, insert miscellaneous references to cultural changes, power struggles, also when appropriate to the story.
As for the second, well, it depends on how you view this exercise. Some view it as a creative one, taking what you know and reshaping the universe according to the spirit of Star Trek and your knowledge of how things are done in the real world. I see it as as a scientific exercise and search for objectivity -- this requires knowing which sources are more authentic than others, as well as asking "why" all the time, instead of "Well, this seems to work, I'll leave it as it is."
Boris
[ May 03, 2002, 09:52: Message edited by: Boris ]
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I can't explain Kosh's hand... I'd like to be able to explain the pilot's doctor seeing Kosh---
Are you talking about his encounter suit having a hand? ---- When Sheridan had to jump out of the tram and Kosh saved him, Kosh certainly had hands then...
However, Lennier is from the Religious Caste, and from the beginning his character was obviously meant to show the "common religious caste Mimbari" to offset Dalenn's progressive nature. So Lennier's very nature means that he would have the same prejudice that the rest of the religious and warrior castes have against the worker caste. --- There is no inconsistancy in my mind about Lennier saying there are two castes, when their are actually three. Lennier is not perfect, he is falliable.
IF we could only accept that our characters in Star Trek could be falliable... "Threshold" would never have been a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
In "The War Prayer", Sinclair and Garibaldi are talking, and Sinclair is wondering how the poison get through Kosh's encounter suit. This means that the exterior surface of the hand must have been part of the encounter suit, while the interior was obviously a simple tentacle.
And of course, both Lyta and Ben learned what Kosh looked like, which is why they were both transferred. Ben is bound by his oath of confidentiality, while Lyta's scan was against the rules from the start, and she wasn't going to reveal more than she had to.
[ May 03, 2002, 14:19: Message edited by: Boris ]
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posted
But when Kosh saved Sheridan, he had hands because Sheridan saw him as a sort of angel. All the aliens saw him as various gods and such from their cultures, too. AFAIK, the form we saw him in when the part of him that was in Sheridan fought the replacement ambassador is what he really looked like.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
quote:Originally posted by TSN: But when Kosh saved Sheridan, he had hands because Sheridan saw him as a sort of angel. All the aliens saw him as various gods and such from their cultures, too.
I wonder what Londo saw...
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
quote:IF we could only accept that our characters in Star Trek could be falliable... "Threshold" would never have been a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The problem with Threshold wasnt thematic dealing with the characters, it was the fact that it was a bland episode with no real point or story except trying to make an interesting story based on a misread passage from a Technical Manual, and failing Lots of goofy effects added for interest that just ended up disgusting fans with lizard sex and unbeleiveable science. Threshold would have been good if it was made as a Captain Proton episode for all the thought they put into the science involved.. why would humans evolve to breathe dissolved acid.. evolution requires environmental impetus or its meaningless.. the old replacing all the DNA in your body instantaneously trick when it really should take ten years, and spread like a cancer.. I'm sure we've been through all this before..
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
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