quote:Originally posted by Matrix: Ummm... no. Refititng does not mean taking it down to the framework and uild back up. Take a look at the US Naval ships between the 20's and the 60's The US was able to replace the turrets and put the same size turrents but far more powerful and with a longer range on their batteships. They were able to cut down the super structure, and build anew within a year. They were able to replace the boilers which litterally in on the keep of the ship without cuttinf gigantic holes in the ship. Keep in mind that the Japanese was able to lengthen their Kongo class Battlecruisers, add armor, make them faster, and reclassify them as battleships. Though not seriously real battleships, but on paper, they appeared to be.
You guys are just blowing way out of proportion.
I disagree. Sure, refitting is definitely plausible. I've never disputed that myself -- read my original post again.
My problem is that given the format of the series, it's eminently obvious that the refit of the NX-01 is going to happen in a matter of WEEKS, not months or a year. Sure, any of the equipment is replaceable or can be reasonably installed... but what's the timetable?
In addition, the NX-01 has always been shown as vastly outgunned by most every alien ship out there -- Klingons, Vulcans, even the tiny Suliban ships in numbers (whose numbers would add up to one capital-type ship). The NX-01 is already considered to be the best and toughest that the Earth Starfleet has to offer; how can they make such enormous leaps in tech in just a couple of years? I'm pretty certain the Vulcans aren't providing technical assistance here...
Oh god, I just thought of another special possible addition: a tractor beam and forcefields. 24th century, here we come!
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
I really don't see how Photon Torpedoes are much of a jump from their current tech. They have matter. They have anti-matter. How hard can it be to stick it in a tube and point it at something? And who says that they are going to be guided?
And as for the comment that they should refit their existing warships, two thoughts arrive:
1/ Maybe they are, and 2/ Maybe they don't have any warships. And even if they do, Enterprise is fastest ship they have. It makes sense to power up it's weapons so that it can do hit and run missions, or whatever.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Just playing devil's advocate here... One of the things we can say is that most of the new technology we will be seeing on board the NX-01 will actually be old technology. Stuff that was supposed to be install on the ship before it left spacedock, but because it left early. The question remains why they didn't just load the stuff onto the ship and let Tucker take care of it, probably didn't trust him with it.
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
posted
Interesting argument, J, and that *could* be true to a certain extent. However, it makes no sense that they would wait until the last minute to install deflector shields and a revolutionary torpedo system. The NX-01 was scheduled to LAUNCH in a couple of weeks... they've got to have been putting the final touches on the ship, ready to test its engines and all that.
(Actually, Reed had never heard of photon torpedoes before "Sleeping Dogs," so it's a safe bet those will have to be brand-new developments.)
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Also, although NX-01 did leave spacedock early, it did have new stuff that didn't get installed in time onboard, namely the phase cannons. It seemed like that was the only major new system that needed to be plug-and-played, as Archer didn't see the need to return to Earth after they were installed.
As for photon torpedoe, the difficulty with it is not the guidence system, but rather the warhead/propulsive system. I simply don't think that Starfleet has the technology to build a M/AM containment device that is also a warhead and an engine during the ENT-era, even if they leave the engine bit out and go with an existing propulsion drive. We've seen the warhead on the spatial torpedoes, they're tiny little things, so the rest of it is just engine and guidence. That's a lot of engine and guidence, and very little space for a warhead. So no way Starfleet can say, modify existing spatial torpedoes to carry a M/AM load, and shoot them out of existing launchers. While M/AM containment system can be considered off-the-shelf technology, its application as the component of a small and portable warhead cannot. Photon torpedoes require more than just M/AM held separately and mixed when detonated, they require an efficient annhilation rate to work properly, otherwise its just a giant flare. So whatever effective containment/warhead system they might come up with during that era would be huge and bulky, probably more suitable for sticking inside a shuttle pod and dropping on a planet.
As for the alien probe attack Earth... God, you'd think B&B would have gotten tired of bad stuff just waltzing into Sector 001 like the place was defended by Canada. For crying outloud, if the Sol System was so poorly defended, I wonder how the Federation has survived for as long as it did.
-------------------- "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
I don't see how well defended we could expect Earth to be at the point. Against a foe of even TOS era technology, Earth's current level couldn't withstand much of an attack. And remember that Earth has been defenseless from planetary invaders for the past few dozen millennia, and we seem to be doing okay.
It seems to me that Earth relied on the expanse of the Federation as its primary defense net, at least until Wolf 359. As for the Breen, I do believe it was stated that Starfleet destroyed all of the attacking ships, so it was probably luck and keen tactical manuevering that allowed them to get that close to Earth in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: Photon torpedoes require more than just M/AM held separately and mixed when detonated, they require an efficient annhilation rate to work properly, otherwise its just a giant flare.
How? Surely matter and anti-matter mixing is going to produce a lot of energy in a fairly violent and extreme manner? And surely things standing next to it aren't going to fare to well?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
For any particle interaction (including deuteron/anti-deuteron annihilation, which is what we're really talking about here - the electrons and positrons contribute very little to the output and in fact may make the whole process messier) certain conditions must be satisfied.
The two particles must come within a certain distance of each other (this distance is known as the cross section of the reaction) and said distance is variable depending on the energy of the particles (so a reaction between slow moving particles and one between fast moving particles may be very different).
As soon as the first pair of deuterons annihilate there will be high energy photons flying off and these may interact with the remaining deuterons, changing their energy or their trajectory. Hence unless the reaction is carefully managed you will not get anywhere near the yield you want.
Photon torpedoes need to manage the reaction in such a way as to produce an effective explosion.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Designing, building and refitting ships of their current technology has always been proportional. Ships from the 1800's always took a few months to refit. Ships from the 1990's has always took months to refit. For example, the USS George Washington, (my ship ), took six months in drydock to do repairs on her. This includes adding and replacing tehcnology, reparing equipment. Just because it's advanced does not mean it has to take years to put it into a ship. Maybe for someone in the 21st century trying to put a 24th century piece of technology, then I can see that.
Besides, I think the first several centuries are more like Sailing Era, where technology a hundred years ago isn't that primitive as it would be today. As I once said before, the difference between technology of a hundred or even two hundred years in Star Trek is not from 1903 to 2003, but rather, 1960's compared to the 2003. Take a look at the carrier Enterprise, not much a difference in technology compared to the others? Right? Just age. She's the fastest, most over powered piece of shit in the Navy right now and we're pround of it.
The way I see it, Earth will be gaining tons of new tehcnology from the Vulcans and other powers in less than ten years, when the Federation is founded or they combine forces to defeat the Romulans. Somehow in that war, Earth will become a important ally to the point that everyone will look at them for help.
Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged
-------------------- joH'a' 'oH wIj DevwI' jIH DIchDaq Hutlh pagh (some days it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps in the morning) The Woozle!
Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
How nice... maybe Enterprise will go the way of TOS... after 3 seasons. I don't see why Enterprise can't be refitted into the Akiraprise within a few months but reusing the ST: IV plot about the invading alien probe? Oh god that's horrible. It's one thing for Earth to be attacked... but by a force that we have never heard of before using a plot that happens in the next century? At least have the Romulans blow up the planet so there is a reason Earth goes to war with the Romulans. Damn, apparently no one at Paramount or B&B knows Trek history. I hope that at the end of this show someone pushes the damn Temporal Reset Button so this series is wiped clean from the Trek Universe. Bring on TAS...
Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
), took six months in drydock to do repairs on her. This includes adding and replacing tehcnology, reparing equipment. Just because it's advanced does not mean it has to take years to put it into a ship. Maybe for someone in the 21st century trying to put a 24th century piece of technology, then I can see that.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
