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In a recent e-mail correspondence I had with Mike Okuda, I asked about where the information for the Oberth-class vessel seen in Spacedock at the end of STIV came from. (According to the Encyclopedia it's the U.S.S. Copernicus, registry number NCC-623, but neither is visible in the film.)
Here's what he had to say on the subject:
"If I recall the name and registry number of the Copernicus came from a photo from ILM that showed the Grissom model as it was used in the end of ST4."
Pretty short & sweet, eh? Now, if somebody could only dig up a copy of that photo. Who was it who said they had some old stuff with TVH publicity pics? CaptainMike? MrNeutron?
On a related note, has anyone ever gotten in contact with ILM and asked about the alleged labeling of the model as U.S.S. Valiant NCC-20000 for GEN? Supposedly, somebody saw the Oberth labeled as this on an episode of Discovery Channel's Movie Magic. However, recently I've come to question this once again since I've seen on the special edition DVD of TSFS that the original Oberthconcept model sported the name Valiant. (Perhaps it was this study model---certainly not used in GEN or anywhere else---that was glimpsed on that program, rather than the actual filming model. But then where did the registry come from???)
-MMoM
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quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: (According to the Encyclopedia it's the U.S.S. Copernicus, registry number NCC-623, but neither is visible in the film.)
Yeah it is, on the widescreen of TVH you can catch part (partial saucer/nacelle) of the Copernicus onscreen, which would be the most likely candidate. The same with the supposed Miranda-class Intrepid in the shadows of Spacedock as well. I don't have the dvd to get caps, but I saw it on the laserdisc on a 52" tv so it was a helluva lot easier to see...
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Amasov Prime
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I saw it at the cinema not long ago and the Oberth with a changed registry was visible.
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quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: (According to the Encyclopedia it's the U.S.S. Copernicus, registry number NCC-623, but neither is visible in the film.)
Yeah it is, on the widescreen of TVH you can catch part (partial saucer/nacelle) of the Copernicus onscreen, which would be the most likely candidate. The same with the supposed Miranda-class Intrepid in the shadows of Spacedock as well. I don't have the dvd to get caps, but I saw it on the laserdisc on a 52" tv so it was a helluva lot easier to see...
Uh...I meant that neither the name nor the registry were visible. I *know* the ship itself can be seen...
-MMoM
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Uh..no need to be a smartass about it. That seems to be quite a common occurance throughout TNG and DS9...
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i wonder if that level of detail had started at that point.. TOS never labeled any models besides Enterprise, Galileo shuttle and Constellation, every other ship was unlabeled or a reuse of other footage.. by TNG and DS9, a model would be relabeled every time it was shot as a different vessel.. and then by the time of VGR they rarely used Fed. starships, and a few times relied on stock footage reuses or unlabeled ships (like the defiants and nebulas they used sometimes).. and ENT doesnt even bother with labels besides on NX-01 (one of the things it actually has in common with TOS)
so how methodically do we think they did this in the movies?
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posted
I don't believe the Oberth model in TVH had any other registry than NCC-638 first seen in TSFS. I base this conclusion on visual evidence seen in the TNG episode "The Naked Now". Before the scout vessel is hurled to the plasma fragment, there is a shot of her starboard hull. The registry is quite visible in this shot.
As for the Valiant, I was one of the originators of this sighting. Years ago, I was watching a program on sfx. In the program, an ILM employee was asked about his work. The employee, apparently working on a Star Trek related film, discussed the placement of nacelles in relation to the main body of a starship. As he did so, the camera shown a aft view of the port side of an Oberth ship. She bore the registry NCC-20000. As the camera moved to the bow, the name USS Valiant was shown above the registry. I believe it is logical to assume that this ship was seen in Generations for the other uses of the model in previous films have been accounted for and recorded. In TSFS and TVH, the Oberth was labeled USS Grissom NCC-638.
I did some research on the program, labeled Movie Magic, and determined the program first ran in 1994. This ties in neatly with the USS Valiant NCC-20000 being in the film Generations.
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quote:Originally posted by newark: I don't believe the Oberth model in TVH had any other registry than NCC-638 first seen in TSFS. I base this conclusion on visual evidence seen in the TNG episode "The Naked Now". Before the scout vessel is hurled to the plasma fragment, there is a shot of her starboard hull. The registry is quite visible in this shot.
Bear with me here a moment. Are we quite sure the registry visible was NCC-638 and not, perhaps, NCC-623? If so, there exists the possibility that they only relabeled the saucer for TVH, either because they "forgot" to redo the secondary hull pennants or because they simply didn't think it necessary for some reason.
quote:As for the Valiant, I was one of the originators of this sighting. Years ago, I was watching a program on sfx. In the program, an ILM employee was asked about his work. The employee, apparently working on a Star Trek related film, discussed the placement of nacelles in relation to the main body of a starship. As he did so, the camera shown a aft view of the port side of an Oberth ship. She bore the registry NCC-20000. As the camera moved to the bow, the name USS Valiant was shown above the registry. I believe it is logical to assume that this ship was seen in Generations for the other uses of the model in previous films have been accounted for and recorded. In TSFS and TVH, the Oberth was labeled USS Grissom NCC-638.
I did some research on the program, labeled Movie Magic, and determined the program first ran in 1994. This ties in neatly with the USS Valiant NCC-20000 being in the film Generations.
So you're absolutely sure that this was the actual studio model and not the concept model from STIII?
-MMoM
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quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
quote:Originally posted by newark: I don't believe the Oberth model in TVH had any other registry than NCC-638 first seen in TSFS. I base this conclusion on visual evidence seen in the TNG episode "The Naked Now". Before the scout vessel is hurled to the plasma fragment, there is a shot of her starboard hull. The registry is quite visible in this shot.
Bear with me here a moment. Are we quite sure the registry visible was NCC-638 and not, perhaps, NCC-623? If so, there exists the possibility that they only relabeled the saucer for TVH, either because they "forgot" to redo the secondary hull pennants or because they simply didn't think it necessary for some reason.
Well the Tsiolkovsky certainly has a 3 digit registry:
And here it is zoomed in at 4x:
But I'll be damned if anyone can make 638 or 623 out of that. Looks to me like that middle digit is a '4'.
P.S. I even darkened the picture up to reduce the blur from the brightness, it didn't help any.
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dya think that they mightve relabeled it for The Naked Now? its possible they changed a digit or two to make it not the Grissom or Copernicus, then found out later that Okuda created the TNG era registry system and wanted a five digit number on the ship? so its labeled something that has been covered up?
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quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: dya think that they mightve relabeled it for The Naked Now? its possible they changed a digit or two to make it not the Grissom or Copernicus, then found out later that Okuda created the TNG era registry system and wanted a five digit number on the ship? so its labeled something that has been covered up?
No idea. Doesn't sound very likely, but OTOH I don't know why they *wouldn't* have relabeled the model for an appearance where it was going to be featured prominently on the screen and close to the camera...
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quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: (According to the Encyclopedia it's the U.S.S. Copernicus, registry number NCC-623, but neither is visible in the film.)
Yeah it is, on the widescreen of TVH you can catch part (partial saucer/nacelle) of the Copernicus onscreen, which would be the most likely candidate. The same with the supposed Miranda-class Intrepid in the shadows of Spacedock as well. I don't have the dvd to get caps, but I saw it on the laserdisc on a 52" tv so it was a helluva lot easier to see...
OK So, Copernicus supposedly can be seen as having a registry of NCC-623, right? I have no problem with this, as I've never paid that much attention to it all and don't have that movie on DVD. Plus, there's been lots of info that seems to bear this out, so for me, it stays that way....
However, this is the first I've heard of a Miranda class ship named Intrepid! That's most interesting. Any registry identified for the ship? Supposition?
Anybody have the chart for "OPERATION: Retrieve" from ST:VI?
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quote: Or, the USS Copernicus may have had a registry of NCC-643 and Mr. Okuda accidently altered the second number in the encyclopedia entry.
Wouldn't be the first time.
quote: However, this is the first I've heard of a Miranda class ship named Intrepid! That's most interesting. Any registry identified for the ship? Supposition?
It was probably just labled Saratoga, but since that ship was out drifting, some people assume it was supposed to be the Intrepid mentioned in the SFHQ back-chatter. Of course this is just conjecture.
quote: Anybody have the chart for "OPERATION: Retrieve" from ST:VI?
That be the holy grail of obscure statship hunters. So no.
quote:Originally posted by Griffworks: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Futurama Guy: [qb]However, this is the first I've heard of a Miranda class ship named Intrepid! That's most interesting. Any registry identified for the ship? Supposition?
Well, here's the deal with this one---the script for TVH included the following passage:
26 EXT. SPACE DOCK - ILM 26
The great rotating satellite, home of grand Spaceships.
27 INT. SPACE DOCK - CONTROL BOOTH, OVERLOOKING SPACE CRAFT 27
TWO CONTROLLERS, back to us, sit in the control seats. They control several Starships in b.g.
CONTROLLER ONE Excelsior and Intrepid are cleared to depart. Open space dock doors.
Over this, the SOUND OF THE PROBE'S SIGNAL is heard. Almost immediately, Controller Two is in big trouble.
CONTROLLER TWO Sir! Space dock doors are inoperative!
CONTROLLER ONE Keep trying. (then) Excelsior and Intrepid stand by! Malfunction on exit doors.
INTREPID VOICE Control, Intrepid. Never mind. We can't get powered up!
The Two Controllers look at each other as the SOUND OF the Probe's GIBBERISH comes in at DEAFENING VOLUME.
CONTROLLER TWO Space doors not responding. All Emergency systems are non- functional.
All over Space dock, lights are dimming.
CONTROLLER ONE Engage reserve power. Starfleet Command, this is Space dock on emergency channel. We have lost all internal power. Repeat, we have lost all power!...
Now, this dialogue is absent from the final film (or at least it isn't audible) but the exterior/interior shot of Spacedock remains, and it shows the Excelsior and a Miranda-class starship. So, some people (notably Spike) figure that the Miranda must be the Intrepid. But that's just speculation based on the sequence of shots in the film and the script.
To be certain, the Miranda model was in all likelihood NOT relabeled from its appearance at the beginning of the movie as the U.S.S. Saratoga NCC-1867. And personally, I would much rather prefer to think that the Intrepid was one of the two refit-Consitutions that we also saw in Spacedock during the film. (Makes sense, considering that it would have been a replacement for the ship from TOS "Court Martial" and "The Immunity Syndrome.") But given the lack of any conclusive indicator of the ship's class, I leave it listed without one on my shiplist.
-MMoM
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