posted
I'm watching the rerun of "In Purgatory's Shadow" right now. We just saw the runabout get ambushed inside the Chamra Vortex, and we get a pretty good close-up of the cruiser as they pass.
Not only does the cruiser have the differently-angled wings compared to the more familiar version, but I've noticed a couple of other important differences...
-- The ship's nose section appears notably shorter compared to the "Call to Arms" version. And I can't be as sure about the ventral hull, but I'm pretty sure that it's got a more voluminous "boat" style section.
-- The nacelles are noticeably thinner. They can't be the same style as that which was probably now trademarked by John Eaves for all those "Enterprise" ships too... (The Klingon Raptor, the early Romulan Bird-of-Prey, etc...)
-- Finally, in that shot we get a really good size comparison shot with a Jem'Hadar fighter. Although we hardly have a reliable size figure for the fighter, it's close enough for jazz... I think that the V-type cruiser should be around 450 to 550 meters -- which is definitely a far cry from the massive 650 to 750 meter cruiser, making it unquestionably a different class of ship!
I did some quick searching and found a couple of images that are okay:
Before, I was always content to just acknowledge the slight design differences and assume they were supposed to be the same thing. But when you've got all these differences piling up -- including and especially the matter of size -- I think we may want to christen this old "V-type" ship a Jem'Hadar light cruiser or some such.
Comments?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
I've just put together a couple of quick GIFbashes that may or may not adequately illustrate what the ship looks like. It's a real quick-n-dirty job, so don't expect all of the lines to be perfectly clean.
Version 1 (on the right side, lower) has the nacelles moved back somewhat, and has the wings still held in a similar position compared to the cruiser while trying to extend them a little bit.
Version 2 (on the left, higher) has longer nacelle pylons to create the enhanced "V" appearance. I don't have a great measurement of how high the wings are, though... it's tough to judge based on the screencaps and the angles sometimes.
Both ships are scaled down a bit to weigh in between 450 and 500 meters. I put the Jem'Hadar fighter on there too so you can get a good comparison... I think one of these definitely fits better for the "In Purgatory's Shadow" cruisers... perhaps one could argue that the *really* big ships were built in Cardassian space once the Jem'Hadar moved in? That would, after all, be logical considering how the Dominion established their control...
Personally, I think the smaller "V1" type ship fits better with what I saw... but I'm putting both in for discussion.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
I've always liked this earlier cruiser more, the downswept wings make the design feel more alive, hungry and 3D.
Why they insisted on removing them, and coloring the only canon sideview they've got in a collage of every flag of the african continent, is beyond me.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Although it'd be nice if the V-cruiser was a different, smaller class of Jem'Hadar cruiser, it's obviously not the intention of anybody involved in the production of the show. The main thing that kills the idea for me is that all of the cruisers in the first fleet that came through the wormhole were V-type, yet all the cruisers we see in the Alpha Quadrant after that point are the now established stockier design.
There isn't really any significant difference in the size of the V-type or normal battlecruiser either. Both the Defiant and Klingon BoP exhibit significantly more variation in VFX size during the run of DS9.
Does anyone here have contact with Eaves? It would be good to here his thoughts on this subject.
It'd also be nice to see a photo of the Jemmy Cruiser studio miniature if anyone has one. I remember hearing a rumour some time ago that photos were around somewhere.
posted
It seems to me that we had some pretty large threads about this very subject back when the episodes were airing. I'm not sure if they'd be available here or not...
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Okay, so when people dig up old topics, they get shouted at. And when they start new threads on the same subject, they get made fun of. Great.
At any rate, I definitely agree that the original intention of the producers was for the V-type and the battlecruiser to be the same type of ship. However... I think that the combination of differences in size and construction make it acceptable to treat the ships as two separate classes. After all, don't we complain whenever we see the same model used to scale two different-sized ships? (Klingon Bird-of-Prey, anyone?)
Considering that Starfleet has umpteen million different starship designs, I think it's reasonable to accept having another "light cruiser" class that was not used as much on the front lines once the actual war got started.
Also, considering that the fleet shots were generally long-distance glimpses, IMO we can just "believe" that there was a mix of the two -- say, in the first fleet coming through the wormhole there were one or two of the big battlecruisers that we just got a quick look at from a distance and easily mistook as a light cruiser, and vice versa.
Willful denial? Maybe, but it's logical, right?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: At any rate, I definitely agree that the original intention of the producers was for the V-type and the battlecruiser to be the same type of ship. However... I think that the combination of differences in size and construction make it acceptable to treat the ships as two separate classes. After all, don't we complain whenever we see the same model used to scale two different-sized ships? (Klingon Bird-of-Prey, anyone?)
Willful denial? Maybe, but it's logical, right?
Personally, I wasnt making fun, just finding so references moreso for resolution and or ammunition for this topic.
I like you theory relating these to Klingon Bird-of-Prey (not that I am all that big of fan to the dual-sized BoPs). However, the relation I am sort of seeing is in wondering if it possible that these V-Wings and then the ones used later in say "Call to Arms" were the same ship...but that these ships have 'movable wings' like the BoPs have? Totally a suggestion, barely a theory, certainly not a belief, but could it possible? Either way, it's food for thought.
[ July 22, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
It's probable that the Dominion is so throughly entrenched i their own space that the small attack "fighter" handles all the day-to-day oppressing of the locals and when the founders decided to begin hostilities with the Federation a new class of cruiser was made and the initial run was sent to the Alpha Quadrant for in-field testing. (careful shakedowns are for powers that can't just clone up replacment crews). THe "V-Wing" was acceptable but considered inadequate after changlings reported new battleships from both Federation and Klingon superpowers entering service. The design was upgraded and the hull enlarged to accomidate additional troops and weapons. Thus the "big" version.
....and the Dominion may have lost several or all of this (small) class when they destroyed the 7th (?) fleet.
Thems my .02 cents.
Plus, I refuse to build a smaller version on such minor screentime.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
