posted
I worked on the book along with Todd Guenther, who those cognescenti among you will know did the "official" 1701-D blueprints with Rick Sternbach.
I'm glad a few fans can still see beyond the stilted, retarded concept of "canon" that has paralyzed fan creativity. And it's good to know that "Ships of the Star Fleet" is still, even after seventeen years, pulling in new fans. I think Todd and I would consider doing another volume if we thought enough people could get out from under that "canon" mindset for long enough to enjoy something that has not been infected with the Paramount curse. We'll have to see.
posted
Woah now, I never said anything was wrong with fan creativity. I just said that there's no chance this stuff could be canon. Because it's never going to be recognized by Paramount. And if we're ever going to discuss Trek with other fans, we've got to have some kind of common frame of reference, too.
I happen to be a big fan of the Starfleet Museum, for example. But not everyone's heard of it, so there's no way that could be considered canon.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
You know what is so interesting about these "canon" discussions? The way fans have taken this idea that is of very little applicability outside the studio and gone crazy with it. Not you, necessarily. But one only need survey a few of the Trek BBSs and know full well what I mean.
Fact is, what's to say that only the Trek made by Roddenberry isn't "canon"? "It isn't Star Trek until I say it's Star Trek" is what Gene Roddenberry is quoted as saying in "The Authorized Biography of Gene Roddenberry". Sure, Paramount owns it and can do what they want with it. Including change it from what the people that created it laid down.
We have a perfectly good understanding of what Roddenberry intended Trek to be from TOS, TAS, TMP the first two seasons of TNG and the TMP novelization. Also the two "Making of" books he co-wrote. A lot of the disparaged "fan" stuff builds upon that Trek. That is certainly what SotSF did.
So please understand my sadness in reading yet another pointless debate about canon. There is Roddenberry canon, and Non-Roddenberry canon. And there is fan material that exponds on each. It all has its place if it is any good. That's the standard that we should debate. Whether it is on screen or made on some guy's computer is it any good?
posted
And yet how can I discuss something with you if I've never seen it? I've heard vague mentions of this "Ships of the Fleet" you mentioned, and I might be able to name a few of the ships created for it. But I've never seen it at all, and I'm not likely to because I don't go out and buy that kind of stuff.
So what's the point in having something if no one can agree about what constitutes the story? That's the whole point about canon -- to make a clearly definable set of works that are reasonably easy for everyone to access, understand, and discuss. I'm not going to go out and buy Star Trek Comic #447 just because someone says it's good. And so I'm not going to say that something that happened in an episode is wrong based on some lousy comic book.
We need a baseline to start from. Yes, there are plenty of quality fan creations out there. I myself have been a part of a fan fiction series for the past THREE YEARS STRAIGHT. Don't tell me that crap about what standard we should debate -- we do that over in the Creativity Forum all the time.
And what about some of the other official Paramount-licensed creations? I haven't picked up a Trek novel in close to eight years now -- they just don't interest me as much any more. And I don't have the money to keep buying books every month like that. So how can I discuss those works if I don't read them?
The five live-action television shows and ten feature films are canon because that's what the owners of the show have made, and the works that reach the widest possible audience, and the works that have borne the title "Star Trek" over the years. Roddenberry gave up the reins of the show; he knew they were planning on making the show that became DS9 when he died, and he'd given his approval. Do you really think he would've said, "Don't make any more Trek when I'm dead!"?
I enjoy fan creativity as much as most people on the Web -- maybe even more than some. But I really hate this sanctimonious, self-serving "we should do away with canon" argument. It makes me sick.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
I think the idea behind canon is to keep some semblence of order in a universe that spans nearly 700 hours (That's a month of Trek). It also keeps out the absolute SHIT that is out there in the novels etc. About 0.5% of the novels are good.
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quote:"But I really hate this sanctimonious, self-serving "we should do away with canon" argument. It makes me sick.
Well, I don't want to be contributing to a decline in your health, mental or otherwise. But I won't be the target of your canonade, either. You say
quote:"Don't tell me that crap about what standard we should debate"
I'll tell you what I want to tell you, but it's up to you whether you agree or care to listen. If you want to misapply the term "canon", that's up to you. "Canon" is for the studio to maintain continuity. That's it. If they have sold you their BS about how only what they produce has any merit, that's fine too. When they didn't produce anything, fans kept Star Trek alive. And when they turn their back on it again, fans will do the same thing all over again. Fans who are bound by the "canon" straightjacket will then be without anything to argue about.
MinutiaeMan wrote:
quote:"So what's the point in having something if no one can agree about what constitutes the story?"
So, no one should make anything at all unless everyone is going to see it? Hell, I haven't seen half of the Voyager episodes. I guess they shouldn't have been made. (Somehow I don't think that came out right...) Really, now-- If something is available to anyone with an Internet connection, how does that differ from something that is available to anyone with a cable TV connection? Fan works are available to anyone that wants them. And the better ones become well known because of their quality and general entertainment value. That is, unless they are prejudicially dismissed beforehand because they aren't canonnnnn. Quality is the standard that counts. Life is too short to be wasting time on crap. That means no "Voyager". Or "Spock's Brain". Or any of a multitude of other "canon" creations. At least not for me. But Paramount can't think that way. They need to sell that complete DVD set. And they need to build upon fan loyalty from one series when creating the next one (so much for "Enterprise"). So canon has to count for them. Unless you're selling DVDs or making new series, I don't see why it should matter a bit to you. But to each his own. Or her own, as the case may be.
quote:"And yet how can I discuss something with you if I've never seen it?"
In the interest of trying to help out before I slide back into the relative obscurity of lurking, the second volume of "Ships of the Star Fleet" is available in bookstores all over the world. And can be ordered online from Amazon. Now you can go get a copy so we can discuss it. The first volume has been out of print for several years, having sold upwards of thirty thousand copies over several print runs. It is reviewed here but you won't find it available anywhere. Not on any used book site. Not on eBay. Once people get it they just don't let go of it (I can afford to be boastful because it is Guenther's baby -- I just contributed to it). So in that case you have a point. If folks can't get it, then it can't really be a part of the discussion.
Time for a reprint.
quote:"But I've never seen it at all, and I'm not likely to because I don't go out and buy that kind of stuff."
Oh. My bad. Forget what I just wrote.
quote:"Roddenberry gave up the reins of the show; he knew they were planning on making the show that became DS9 when he died, and he'd given his approval. Do you really think he would've said, "Don't make any more Trek when I'm dead!"?
Ummm, maybe you can direct me to where this "quote" is directly attributed to him. Otherwise it is just fan speculation. Strictly non-canon.
This is all very very ridiculous. As MunitiaeMan said, a work created by fans of a TV show who did not have authorization or permission of the persons or entities owning or holding legal rights to creation and distribution of said TV show could never in any conceivable way be considered a valid part of the universe described by said TV show.
End. Of. Discussion.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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posted
After reading over the above post, I believe I should amend my statement.
There is, in fact, a conceivable way in which portions (if not the entirety) of a work such as Ships of the Star Fleet might become canonical. Someone "on the inside" might sneak material from book into an episode or film.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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posted
Like the occasional FASA designs cropping in in TNG's season one or some FJ names in comm traffic in TMP?
That makes some sense.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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"I'm glad a few fans can still see beyond the stilted, retarded concept of 'canon' that has paralyzed fan creativity."
"Paralyzed fan creativity"? Are you saying that, if no-one had ever applied the term "canon" to Star Trek, fans would be completely free to, say, write stories in which Captain Kirk is a gay woman, Spock is twelve feet tall with orange tentacles and eats Scotty sometime during the series, etc., and this would be a good thing?
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posted
Compared with, say, 'Spock's Brain', 'Shades of Grey'? Or 'Threshold'? Hmm, close call.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
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posted
Probably the only DS9 episode I skip over is "Paradise". That was more boring than anything else.
"Muse" bothers me only because the Nebula has no captain, Al Gore is the commanding officer and has almost no lines and the bridge is the size of a shoebox: they could have at least redressed the Enterprise set.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"Really, though there is no stand out awful DS9 episode."
*cough*
Fascination Let He Who Is Without Sin Ferengi Love Songs Profit and Lace The Emperor's New Cloak
*cough*
Hallucinogenics if I ever saw them.
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quote:Originally posted by aridas: Ummm, maybe you can direct me to where this "quote" is directly attributed to him. Otherwise it is just fan speculation. Strictly non-canon.
Okay, fair enough....
Clearly Roddenberry, then sixty-nine, saw the success his creation was enjoying and understood that Star Trek would endure without him. By this time, with The Next Generation going into its fourth season more popular than ever, and with Rick Berman's name joining Roddenberry's in the closing credits as the series' executive producer, it was quite evident to insidersto whom Roddenberry wished the torch to be passed. Equally clear from the warmth and graciousness of Roddenberry's remarks that day was the confidence he felt in Rick Berman as the one to take over his creation and guide it through its continuing growth.
The meeting in which Berman wasasked to come upwith a third Star Trek series took place shortly before Gene Roddenberry's death, and Bermandid have a chance to sound out Roddenberry on how he felt about the idea of a third Star Trek series. Roddenberry,Berman reports, thought that it would be great, and that they should talk about it soon.
Unfortunately, that talk never took place. But no one connected with Star Trek doubts that Gene Roddenberry would have had anything but confidence and enthusiasm for the way in which Rick Berman has kept his creation alive, relevant, and vital, including the creation of Deep Space Nine.
� Reeves-Stevens, Judith & Garfield. The Making of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. (pp. 49-50) New York: Pocket Books, 1994. ISBN 0-671-87430-6.
Does that satisfy you? Or are you going to argue that Berman was lying to protect his new creation for various and sundry reasons relating to slowly killing the Star Trek franchise? (Perhaps you should read The Adventures of Berman and Braga (unfortunately my site's down at the moment, though).)
quote:
quote:"So what's the point in having something if no one can agree about what constitutes the story?"
So, no one should make anything at all unless everyone is going to see it?
No, that's NOT what I said. I'm talking about the main source story, the Star Trek series themselves. That has nothing to do with what kind of creations the fans make for themselves.
Take this SotF that this thread is ostensibly about. Say that Cartman and I are discussing the performance of the Miranda-class starships in the Dominion War. You pipe up and ask about what the Bullshit-class starships would have been doing in the war, because after all they're about the same age and capability, so why shouldn't they have been doing something? I stare at you blankly (so to speak) because I've never seen SotF and very likely never will.
Yes, canon is mostly for the writers of the show to keep track of their own facts (when they choose to observe it). But it's also for the fans to have a common point of reference to START FROM when they're creating their own original works related to the Trek universe. Which I believe I said a number of posts ago.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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