posted
Very much so. After the Khitomer Accords calmed relations with the Klingons, and the Tomed Incident saw the Romulans retreat behind their borders, the only problems we had were the occasional Tholian attack (most likely only when we transgressed the borders that only seem to make sense to them) and decades later the Cardassians and Talarians and other minor threats on the outskirts of Federation space.
Given that political environment, the more pacifistic elements of Federation leadership almost certainly were able to engineer the disbanding of the Starfleet Marine Corps (whatever it was actually called). That was probably also about the time the uniforms changed back to a simple three-division-colour scheme from the TFS eight-colour scheme.
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quote:And I really don't see what the problem with the term Starfleet Marine is. It's just an attempt to suggest that Starfleet might have some troops that are a bit more elite than yellow shirts and is devoted to atmospheric combat operations. The term Marines apply fine just for that, especially if you're asking the troops to establish a planetary beachhead, or assault enemy ships. Regular infantry typically don't do the things Marines are suppose to be good at.
The word Marine refers directly to combat either on or from the sea. In a space environment this term is simply redundant. That aside I dislike the use of overtly military aspects of Starfleet, especially Earth centric. It's not as if that term is going to mean anything to a race has no significant history of sea bound combat. Like the Vulcan's for example, who's homeworld has little if any surface water. Aside from that, 'marines' just conjures up a gung-ho, jingoistic image that works just fine for a bug hunt on LV426 or British colonialism in the Caribbean, but really isn't appropriate for Star Trek. I know Gene certainly wouldn't approve.
I can except that there are those in Starfleet, even during TNG who's role is more oriented towards offensive actions. Indeed I think Ensign Ro went off on a 'Tactical Training Course' or something at one point and there's the fact that Kirk referred to his offensive team on Cestus III (Arena) as 'Tactical Troops' (I think.) Hence my preference for the term 'Starfleet Tactical Corps'. It's hair splitting I know, but that's what we're best at.
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posted
Gene wouldn't have approved of a lot of things, like, oh, 5/7th of DS9. All this spastic politicizing just to avoid ANY association with the practice of war strikes me as both incredibly stupid and blindingly naive.
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posted
^^^ Colonel West would agree, that is before Scotty shot him and he was revealed to be a traitor with the Scooby Doo ending.
There's tons of "redundant" nautical terms used throughout Trek, so why should the term Marine be any different. The term could have evolved from the literal association with seagoing soldiers to mean troops that are trained to deal with operations in multiple environments.
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quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: That was probably also about the time the uniforms changed back to a simple three-division-colour scheme from the TFS eight-colour scheme.
Don't we pretty much know when they changed back to the three-division colour uniforms? After Jack Crusher recorded his message 15 before the start of the series, but before whenever the Stargazer got shot down?
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posted
Yup, nothing ambiguous about that any more. The date this scheme was introduced is less clear, though.
I must agree with Reverend that calling the Marines "Marines" is a silly idea and indicates a lack of imagination. Which is why I'm removing such references from the Hitchhiker's Guide right away. Apart from that, though, I like the idea of dedicated ground action forces that are wholly separate from Starfleet Security. I'm not averse to the idea of fighting forces that bridge the gap between these two, though. And at least during the TOS movie era, I'd be quite ready to believe in a Babel of special forces, two or three per each "service branch"...
Whether the early 24th century was peaceful enough to see Starfleet de-escalation is debatable. In basically every new era we've been introduced to, the third or fourth season has revealed wars in the "recent past". I'm reserving a spot for an Enterprise-C show in this regard. Frankly, the UFP looks like a rather bellicose little setup, despite the outwardly pacifism, and would no doubt have stepped on a couple of tentacles during the early 24th, too.
quote:Gene wouldn't have approved of a lot of things, like, oh, 5/7th of DS9. All this spastic politicizing just to avoid ANY association with the practice of war strikes me as both incredibly stupid and blindingly naive.
True, Gene was sometimes naively optimistic about humanity's not too distant future and the though of a pacifist non-military starship that had naval ranks and weapons of mass destruction is more that a little self contradictory. Still...further to my previous objections Marines are simply too limited a group of soldiers to be Starfleet's dedicated fighting force. A 'Tactical Coup' is nice and all emcompassing of defensive and offensive activiity and can include activities historically undertaken by terrestiral marines (excuse the pun) as well as special forces groups like the US SEALS and the British SAS. Also as has been started before, the word 'Marines' has never been used in Star Trek to my knowledge, while the word 'Tactical' gets thrown around all over the shop. If I recall correctly, the closest they've come to saying the 'M' word was in ST:V when Kirk said something about 'Federation Soldiers'.
posted
I think the "stepping on tenticles" occurs because while basically pacifistic, the Fed is seen by the other powers as "aggressivly expansionistic" (as the Romulans put it in The Neutral Zone")
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posted
Well they essentially "assimilate" other cultures, take all the resources, and move on. The people they run across are given hand outs of technology and a promise of Utopian partnership. But lets be honsest, if your not human, vulcan, or one of the founding members how much power would you really have?
So I would have to say that Starfleet would have, and currantly has, a group of special operations troops that are tasked with keeping systems within the Federation "pro-Federation", via assassinations , sabotauge, ect.
Wow, the Federations is a dirty dirty thing... VIVA ROMULAN!!!
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posted
The word "Marines" can be easily converted to the peaceful sounding word "Mariners", perfectly inline with Starfleet's exploratory mission.
However, a word like "Tactical Corps" can only easily form words like "tactics" and "corpse", which are very naughty words, because they imply Starfleet has something specifically meant to hurt and kill people, and that's mean.
Who else want some of this hair splitting? Huh? Huh? You?
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quote:Originally posted by David Templar: The word "Marines" can be easily converted to the peaceful sounding word "Mariners", perfectly inline with Starfleet's exploratory mission.
Untill they make first contact with the Albatross-Men of planet Coleridge
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posted
Egad . . . quite a response! Thanks! Forgive me as I catch up:
1. I considered using the Vulcan transports, but since the context of that was a sneak attack of claimed peace envoys, I decided that probably didn't constitute a standard invasion vessel at all.
2. The Hur'q devices, IIRC, were not so much a spoofing technique as they were a holo-cloak . . . a forcefield pretending to be a wall. Similar in principle to the "rock" forcefields employed by the Vidiians, or the duck blinds used by the Federation. Hey now, maybe I should mention those . . . but, alas, we haven't seen them employed in a tactical manner as far as I know.
3. The speed of beaming large numbers of people is something I do need to quantify. It'll vary between large-number examples and some of the smaller ones as in "Descent, Pt. II"[TNG7].
4. The idea of Starfleet Marines is something I'm of two minds about. I can see the potential for coolness, but it has always seemed contradictory to the sort of universe the show presents, and far too easily rendered silly.
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Apart from that, though, I like the idea of dedicated ground action forces that are wholly separate from Starfleet Security. I'm not averse to the idea of fighting forces that bridge the gap between these two, though. And at least during the TOS movie era, I'd be quite ready to believe in a Babel of special forces, two or three per each "service branch"...![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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